|
rt4 posted:How hard do you need to stick to disqualifiers for an offer? I have one offer at $170k which has some solid perks such as paid training, then another for $200k + some performance-based stock grants (real stocks). The higher paying role would be the first on an internal support team with on-call duties and an "unlimited" vacation policy with no mandatory minimum. I'm worried that the higher paying job will stress me out with on-call, uncertain vacation boundaries, and general workplace chaos. On the other hand, I'm also worried that I'll feel stupid in the future for passing up a significant pay increase. How stressful oncall is is going to vary a lot by company and team, but it's a pretty common thing so I don't think it should be an automatic disqualifier. Ask them how long each shift is (eg 24x7 or are shifts split across teams in different time zones), how frequently you'll be oncall (eg 1 week every month), how many times per week your prospective team typically gets paged, and if there's any extra compensation for being oncall outside of work hours. Ditto for unlimited vacation - it could be a net negative or a positive depending on the team and company cultures. My current company has unlimited vacation and I viewed that as a negative but their pitch was that half the company lives in Europe and that informs the vacation culture, and my manager told me he makes sure people take at least 4-5 weeks. Ask how many weeks people take each year on average, and ask your prospective team in particular how many weeks each person actually took last year. Edly fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Aug 31, 2021 |
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 08:02 |
|
|
rt4 posted:How hard do you need to stick to disqualifiers for an offer? I have one offer at $170k which has some solid perks such as paid training, then another for $200k + some performance-based stock grants (real stocks). The higher paying role would be the first on an internal support team with on-call duties and an "unlimited" vacation policy with no mandatory minimum. I'm worried that the higher paying job will stress me out with on-call, uncertain vacation boundaries, and general workplace chaos. On the other hand, I'm also worried that I'll feel stupid in the future for passing up a significant pay increase.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 16:48
|
|
|
That seems like a good line of conversation: Unlimited vacation vs accrual I favor an unlimited vacation policy over time accrual because I do a good job of taking a day off here and there and tend to drop big vacations for weeks like when family visits or when we go overseas. Accrual, I feel like, means a lot more foresight and planning has to go into time off. But I'd be extremely wary of any unlimited policy that needs longer than a 2-week lead time and manager approval. And 2-week lead time is pushing it. I run my team such that they just have to put planned days on the calendar so that when they don't show up, we know that they're out. Unused vacation paying out at the end favors unhealthy work habits. Take time off! It's important for your health! e: As a manager, I do have to fight my employees to ensure they do take time for themselves. The company wasn't fond of it, but I encouraged a 2 month paternity leave for one of my devs (he came back after 6 because he was bored) and made the other extend his initial 2 week plan to 6. One of the harder things I've found, as a manager, was making sure that my devs don't crunch or stress themselves. If I don't watch a few of them, they'll do it in secret. kayakyakr fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Aug 31, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
Earned but unused vacation balances accrue as a liability on the balance sheet and unlimited vacation avoids that little problem. Subjectively, most unlimited vacation policies exist to be worker-unfriendly: you don't need to pay out unused balances because there aren't any. Especially if there isn't a mandatory minimum it's highly suspect.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 17:12
|
|
|
Yeah, if I see unlimited vacation, I want there to be a mandatory minimum of like 3 weeks per year. Even then though, I'd be worried about culture and effects on career advancement. Like, say you don't take any time off during the year and are forced to take the entire month of December as vacation...how does that affect your team's and your manager's perception of you?
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 17:27
|
|
|
My company switched from accrual to unlimited, then back to accrual but without payout. They call it "untracked", lol. The only reason I'm still here is because of the drat senioritis, as I get 5 weeks pto, plus about two weeks in regular days off. I tried to find a place where this would carry over at least partially, but no luck. I'm gladly continuing to exchange my personal life for figgies at this moment, tbh, as having a toddler during pandemic is a job in itself and far more rewarding.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 17:31
|
|
|
I feel like the impact of unlimited vacation is just a force-multiplier on the existing culture/toxicity of the workplace in general. If it's a well-managed place with sane timelines and understanding of work-life balance, then unlimited vacation is a nice bonus for added flexibility and reduction of burnout without having to plan out a limited budget of days from the beginning of every year. On the other hand, in a toxic/mismanaged environment where there's more pressure and projects are constantly in need of emergency crunch, then the social pressure of not 'abandoning' coworkers in the poo poo will definitely drive down actual days taken off. The natural excuse of "oh I'm about to hit my PTO cap, just gotta take a week off or lose it" does a lot to stave off guilt-tripping and that protection is gone in bad unlimited leave environments.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 17:33
|
|
|
Just quoting to make it a point that I'm still back here:rt4 posted:I have one offer at $170k which has some solid perks such as paid training, then another for $200k + some performance-based stock grants (real stocks). The higher paying role would be the first on an internal support team with on-call duties and an "unlimited" vacation policy with no mandatory minimum. I'm worried that the higher paying job will stress me out with on-call, uncertain vacation boundaries, and general workplace chaos. On the other hand, I'm also worried that I'll feel stupid in the future for passing up a significant pay increase. Previous people already said plenty about the on-call and the vacations. If you're trying to figure out what the deal is there, you can try to figure out real time off by what kind of vacations people have taken or when down time is (if you can get anybody to tell you). You can try to get some stories about emergencies to get an idea of what on-call actually is like if they won't just tell you what it's really like. And of course there are the usual things like referring to everybody like they're "one big family" or making a lot of emphasis that this isn't a 40-hour job that you can use as huge warning signs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 17:38
|
|
|
gbut posted:My company switched from accrual to unlimited, then back to accrual but without payout. They call it "untracked", lol. The only reason I'm still here is because of the drat senioritis, as I get 5 weeks pto, plus about two weeks in regular days off. I tried to find a place where this would carry over at least partially, but no luck. I'm gladly continuing to exchange my personal life for figgies at this moment, tbh, as having a toddler during pandemic is a job in itself and far more rewarding. How does switching to untracked work with you have 5 weeks of pto? I would think that would have just torpedo'd your pto.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 17:39
|
|
|
It's accrued and tracked, but they call it "untracked" so they don't have to pay out if you leave.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 18:25
|
|
|
Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Most of the downside of unlimited vacation is without a set minimum number of days, you might not feel entitled to taking whatever days you need for vacation, and managers etc. might whine and there might be a social stigma because the amount of days isn't set. People feel more at ease about vacation if there's a specified number of days written. The classic hot-take is that it isn't really 'unlimited'. If you took every day off, you'd be fired. Therefore, there exists some max number, X, of vacation days that is acceptable to take. I would rather have X defined and accepted by everyone, on paper, than have it be up to the not-explicitly-stated whims/opinions/norms of my managerial hierarchy. kayakyakr posted:That seems like a good line of conversation: Unlimited vacation vs accrual Accrual is annoying, and should really only be used for the first year of employment, if that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 18:26
|
|
|
The one with on-call told me it's never over 40 hours per week except potentially in case of on-call. So far, they won't commit to anything about the on-call volume. They say they have no data since I'm the first person in the role, but you'd think they could say something about how many complaints they ignore in a typical month!
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
B-Nasty posted:The classic hot-take is that it isn't really 'unlimited'. If you took every day off, you'd be fired. Therefore, there exists some max number, X, of vacation days that is acceptable to take. I would rather have X defined and accepted by everyone, on paper, than have it be up to the not-explicitly-stated whims/opinions/norms of my managerial hierarchy. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
rt4 posted:They say they have no data since I'm the first person in the role, but you'd think they could say something about how many complaints they ignore in a typical month! hot take no context city, but if they can't even ballpark it they are either lying and its bad or they don't know and its bad in a different way
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 19:22
|
|
|
rt4 posted:How hard do you need to stick to disqualifiers for an offer? I have one offer at $170k which has some solid perks such as paid training, then another for $200k + some performance-based stock grants Take the money job, at the six month mark start making plans to leave at the 18 or 24 month mark, bury all your excess winnings in an investment, then move to a more sustainable job
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 20:27
|
|
|
rt4 posted:The one with on-call told me it's never over 40 hours per week except potentially in case of on-call. So far, they won't commit to anything about the on-call volume. They say they have no data since I'm the first person in the role, but you'd think they could say something about how many complaints they ignore in a typical month! So, you're the only person on-call? Meaning, you would be on-call all the time? Usually you spread that responsibility across a team, so people can make plans, trade shifts with each other and, you know, actually enjoy their evenings most of the time.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 20:40
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:Take the money job, at the six month mark start making plans to leave at the 18 or 24 month mark, bury all your excess winnings in an investment, then move to a more sustainable job I'm inclined to agree, but this company appears to have very low turnover, so there may be good reason to stick around. thotsky posted:So, you're the only person on-call? Meaning, you would be on-call all the time? Usually you spread that responsibility across a team, so people can make plans, trade shifts with each other and, you know, actually enjoy their evenings most of the time. Now they say it's one week per month, with less and less as they fill out the team
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 20:50
|
|
|
I would go for the money, because you can always leave and there are no guarantees with the other job, but the on call stuff sounds pretty shady. I guess by the time you're onboarded there might be people to help carry the load, but depending on the complexity of the tasks responding to such calls entail that could take a while. Just seems like bad planning on their side.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 21:02
|
|
|
e: I would go for the money. If on-call after hours stuff becomes too much of an issue, just take corresponding time off when poo poo's not broken.Hargrimm posted:I feel like the impact of unlimited vacation is just a force-multiplier on the existing culture/toxicity of the workplace in general. If it's a well-managed place with sane timelines and understanding of work-life balance, then unlimited vacation is a nice bonus for added flexibility and reduction of burnout without having to plan out a limited budget of days from the beginning of every year. On the other hand, in a toxic/mismanaged environment where there's more pressure and projects are constantly in need of emergency crunch, then the social pressure of not 'abandoning' coworkers in the poo poo will definitely drive down actual days taken off. The natural excuse of "oh I'm about to hit my PTO cap, just gotta take a week off or lose it" does a lot to stave off guilt-tripping and that protection is gone in bad unlimited leave environments. This is the benefit of being "da boss"... for my devs, as I get to dictate a lot of that culture, especially at a smaller company where I'm an underpaid director that probably 1:1's with a title of (early) Sr EM at most larger companies (plus aspects of being an actual director). The downside is that I'm an underpaid director and also it matters for me if my boss is not down with that culture. Fortunately, for now, I like my boss and he's easy to work with.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 21:07
|
|
|
It's not that bad in this case because it's a big company with a new private cloud department. Chaos is inevitable. The people who interviewed me seemed kind, intelligent, and experienced. Hopefully my childhood traumas did not cause me to misjudge their character because I'm going for the money job!
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 21:10
|
|
|
big question: is there oncall pay or can you take time in lieu? SREs at my job get quite the bump for doing oncall rotations. without that bump it'd be a hard sell imo
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 21:23
|
|
|
I've always made the deal that I take 1:1 time off for time I spend responding to pager duty, I've never had anyone balk at this. It's still bad, but less bad.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 21:31
|
|
|
There's no way I can handle on-call without becoming bitter! I'm going to choose the less money job
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 22:24
|
|
|
Fwiw I've been on-call in different capacities for the past 5 years and it's never been that big of a deal. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's a week of nothing. I had the same concern when I took the job but it worked out pretty well and I'm glad I took that chance. Without knowing anything about the experience is it that bad to try it out and if it sucks find another job? Worst case you've made extra cash and learned something about your tolerance for on-call and an idea of what to look for in your next interview loop re: that experience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 23:00
|
|
|
Just did my "additional" coding exercise and it basically followed the exact same question that I spent 4 hours doing in a takehome. Lmfao. "Given a list of log lines, report when we meet some set of criteria based on a moving window for specific data fields" basically. It's not a hard problem to solve but to write and code out in 1 hour? loving insanity. Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Aug 31, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 23:23
|
|
|
How are yall attracting these recruiters? Linkedin? Any good guides on how to fill out your profile? I am 1.5 years into my first tech job doing data science. No ML/AI or anything like that but I am building the tools & frameworks the actual math nerds are using to create analytics (all python). I gravitate towards the software engineering activities and only took this job to get a foot in the door. So long story short I'd like to get a bonafide software engineer job but not sure where to start. I am making a hair over 100k & I guess around 130k T/C when I include insurance & vacation time. I'd like to see if I can do better. I had a ~6 year career in manufacturing & quality assurance at the same company before teaching myself to code and I will never get a large raise staying here.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2021 23:45
|
|
|
a dingus posted:How are yall attracting these recruiters? Linkedin? Any good guides on how to fill out your profile?
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 00:34
|
|
|
Personally I'm tempted to do that myself, but I'm worried about a dumb scenario where it becomes a ticking time bomb where my company actively tries to replace me while I'm still here and looking. I don't know if that's even a well founded fear, but it always slips into my mind with anything that can be searched anywhere. I know LinkedIn has a feature to try to prevent my current company seeing me being open to roles, but my company somehow ended up with two company profiles on LinkedIn, so half my coworkers are in one and half are in the other. My boss is in one, my boss's boss is in another. The HR/Recruiters, probably the most likely to notice, seem to be pretty evenly split between the two also.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 00:40
|
|
|
a dingus posted:How are yall attracting these recruiters? Linkedin? Any good guides on how to fill out your profile? Yeah, one offer from a LinkedIn recruiter for a company with an effectively unusable careers page, then another was a referral from an old friend. I just list my titles and have a link to a couple Github things, but that may not work so well for someone with less experience. My resume is distinctly stronger than ever. I removed all mention of specific technologies. This was important for me since about half of it is in PHP, which makes many people assume I'm a doofus. Instead, nearly all of my roles have a couple bullet points of success stories with measurable outcomes. For example, "saved 20 programmer hours per month by automating this task" (lots of those), other things like "sharded application to fix recurring outages and increase capacity," and even "provided technical training and diagnostics to struggling big customer, preventing churn and increasing recurring revenue 7x"
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 01:04
|
|
|
a dingus posted:I guess around 130k T/C when I include insurance & vacation time if you include insurance and vacation time in your TC you're gonna confuse a lot of people. TC = salary + bonus + stockstuff to answer your question, though, it's mostly just flipping the switch. depending on how big you company is, you might be able to get yourself reclassified as a "SWE in data" or some crap with no material change that'd help your search failing that, you can list yourslf as a python programmer on linkedin. just don't misrepresent your title on your resume
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 01:19
|
|
|
wilderthanmild posted:Personally I'm tempted to do that myself, but I'm worried about a dumb scenario where it becomes a ticking time bomb where my company actively tries to replace me while I'm still here and looking. I don't know if that's even a well founded fear, but it always slips into my mind with anything that can be searched anywhere. Just turn it on and if anyone asks then pretend you don't know what they're talking about and you always get random people contacting you on LinkedIn.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 01:39
|
|
|
asur posted:Just turn it on and if anyone asks then pretend you don't know what they're talking about and you always get random people contacting you on LinkedIn. Ironically saying "Oh God how did this get here I'm not good with computer" might be an effective strategy. More effective than being honest at least.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 01:50
|
|
|
I'm officially joining figgie land! Almost 4 years experience, going from 85k CAD total comp to 275,000 USD total comp + 20k signing bonus. Feels kind of insane and I'm happy and excited. Thanks thread for helping me gain some understanding and perspective on figgieland. Guess I'll see y'all at the next figgieland goon meetup lol
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 02:27
|
|
|
asur posted:Just turn it on and if anyone asks then pretend you don't know what they're talking about and you always get random people contacting you on LinkedIn. If you're not applying for other jobs on the company VPN are you even living?
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 02:34
|
|
|
Achmed Jones posted:if you include insurance and vacation time in your TC you're gonna confuse a lot of people. TC = salary + bonus + stockstuff Cool thanks for the tip about t/c! I thought it included the benes obviously. Im doing my best to market myself as a swe but have my job title as "Data Scientist (Software Engineer)" on my resume. I guess I gotta just add more information to my profile that will entice recruiters. I still get people trying to hire me for manufacturing roles which I couldn't be repulsed more by.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 02:35
|
|
|
awesomeolion posted:I'm officially joining figgie land! Almost 4 years experience, going from 85k CAD total comp to 275,000 USD total comp + 20k signing bonus. Feels kind of insane and I'm happy and excited. Thanks thread for helping me gain some understanding and perspective on figgieland. Guess I'll see y'all at the next figgieland goon meetup lol Awesome! Congrats
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 02:54
|
|
|
sim posted:Awesome! Congrats Yayy. I guess since people were sharing progressions, I can add that my current job (not for long) is my first dev job and I started at $47,500 CAD
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 03:16
|
|
|
a dingus posted:Im doing my best to market myself as a swe but have my job title as "Data Scientist (Software Engineer)" on my resume. Is data scientist really a lower-tier title in software development?
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 04:02
|
|
|
there's two kinds of data scientist in common usage "I pull up poo poo on excel and maybe a python notebook or something and make the cool powerpoint reports for management" - tends to be paid less and considered lower-tier. "I code poo poo in product that needs statistical sophistication" - not paid less, not considered lower-tier. and often of course lots of effort is made for one to seem like the other, both in job recs and resumes. it seems like dingus is #2 but is gettin paid like #1, which is why job recs pull the ol' bait and switch on that front
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 04:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 08:02 |
|
|
On a side note, it's been kind of funny to get cold-call recruitment emails by multiple recruiters and managers at this point who refuse to share even the vaguest info on comp ranges up front, even when directly asked (serving up the usual "competitive with the market", "case by case basis" management BS instead). Either these people are blind to the current market or they're desperately hoping that I am.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2021 04:36
|
|