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His Divine Shadow posted:2. This is actually wrong. See point 3. Opening windows in the winter time to air the house up and then heating it, would be less efficient than recovering the heat via mechanical ventilation. this is one of the funniest examples i have ever seen of a european confidently tripping over their own dick to explain how americans are inferior
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Sep 1, 2021 18:00
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Loezi posted:If you read my post again, you might notice that I wasn't making a statement to the effect that my inside temp needs to be exactly 21c all the time I typically open my windows between about 15 and 25C. Do you not get temperatures in that range?
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Sep 1, 2021 18:01
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Have you all never been in a situation where you wanted the inside air exchanged for fresh air, ASAP, temperature be damned? We should provide stink bombs for free to the children of Finland till the growups realize the error of their ways.
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Sep 1, 2021 18:02
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Lutha Mahtin posted:this is one of the funniest examples i have ever seen of a european confidently tripping over their own dick to explain how americans are inferior Ah I understand now what this is about. Makes sense all of a sudden.
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Sep 1, 2021 18:03
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Lutha Mahtin posted:this is one of the funniest examples i have ever seen of a european confidently tripping over their own dick to explain how americans are inferior If they're tripping over it, does that mean that european dicks are bigger than american dicks? How about canadian dicks? Ummmm, you know asking for a friend.
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Sep 1, 2021 18:03
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If I want access to the roof, I take the screen out of a second‐floor window and step right out. 
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Sep 1, 2021 18:04
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His Divine Shadow posted:Ah I understand now what this is about. Makes sense all of a sudden. you think americans lower their house temperature in the winter by opening windows to let outside air in. that's what this is about
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Sep 1, 2021 18:05
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glynnenstein posted:I typically open my windows between about 15 and 25C. Do you not get temperatures in that range? At the very southern tip of Finland, the typical daily high is above 15c between May 23 and September 13. The country goes about a thousand kilometers north from there. In Rovaniemi you get those daily highs between June 6th and August 24. Based on stats from 1961 to present, the only month in which the monthly average temperature is over 15 degrees Celcius is July, when the national average is 15.6 degrees. We get official adverse weather warnings for heat at 25 degrees.
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Sep 1, 2021 18:08
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Lutha Mahtin posted:you think americans lower their house temperature in the winter by opening windows to let outside air in. that's what this is about Actually no I don't think that, that was just a scenario I used because I thought it was clearer that way. I know in reality most americans use passive ventilation (drafts basically) that is also common here in superior europe (oh poo poo I gave the game away) in older houses. But the principle is the same just in america as in europe where we have a lot of houses like that too.
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Sep 1, 2021 18:11
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Zereth posted:... Do finns have built in roof access ladders? And if they do, what happens if you move to Finland, do they have to graft a non-organic roof access ladder into your body?!
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Sep 1, 2021 18:21
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Lutha Mahtin posted:you think americans lower their house temperature in the winter by opening windows to let outside air in. that's what this is about Didn't we have an actual post in this thread about a guy in PA who heated his house with a coal furnace in winter and used open windows to regulate the resulting blazing heat?
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Sep 1, 2021 18:57
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Ashcans posted:Didn't we have an actual post in this thread about a guy in PA who heated his house with a coal furnace in winter and used open windows to regulate the resulting blazing heat? well yeah, there are people who have bad old furnaces like that, or who live in a crappy apartment where they don't have good radiator controls. but i thought everyone was talking more about what are the modern strategies for energy efficiency in homes and i think the americans who do that with coal generally only can do so if they live in an old house in coal county and have a really old furnace Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 1, 2021 |
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Sep 1, 2021 19:15
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Ashcans posted:Didn't we have an actual post in this thread about a guy in PA who heated his house with a coal furnace in winter and used open windows to regulate the resulting blazing heat? The climate hero we all need.
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Sep 1, 2021 19:20
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Computer viking posted:Basically this. If you live somewhere humid in the US south, where you both would want to keep multiple windows open for most of the year and there are a lot of mosquitoes and other bugs, netting seems like it would cross the border from "nice to have" into "basically a requirement to live here".
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Sep 1, 2021 19:41
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I really wish German-style windows were common in North America, particularly in apartments. We live in a house now with lots of nice big sliding windows, so getting a fresh breeze isn't an issue, but in our old apartment building we just had these little ones that barely let any air in unless you put a fan right in front of them. I feel really bad for all the people in the newer condos where they rely entirely on the building air conditioner, and their windows are just awning-style that only swing open a couple inches. Living in a place where you couldn't open the windows at all would drive me absolutely crazy.
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Sep 1, 2021 20:42
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D34THROW posted:We're talking about two different things. If it's a 90° turn handle and then just a literal hinge like a door plus some piece of hardware to keep it up, that's great. I'm talking about crank-out awning-type and casement-type windows, with a crank handle (housing plus gears and a swing arm, which if any one piece goes, the whole thing's shot), vent hooks, vent locks, torque bars, bearings, and about ten other parts that all have to work in sync perfectly. I work in the window and door industry and sold hundreds of those parts while I worked retail. That sounds convoluted, yeah. These have those parallelogram style hinge arms on the side, and some kind of "turn handle to lock" system , either a simple hook or a slightly more complicated "extend pins sideways into window frame" lock. It's not a great illustration, but here's an installation guide video from a home depot-alike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3ukTAOL0g Arsenic Lupin posted:The worst mosquitoes I have ever dealt with were in Trondheim in high summer. You wanted the windows open because it was hot. You did not want the windows open because you needed that blood to keep your internal organs functional. And no, no screens. On the other hand, that was in 1973, and both climate and building have changed since then. I concede that there are exceptions.
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Sep 1, 2021 20:44
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Magic Hate Ball posted:I really wish German-style windows were common in North America, particularly in apartments. We live in a house now with lots of nice big sliding windows, so getting a fresh breeze isn't an issue, but in our old apartment building we just had these little ones that barely let any air in unless you put a fan right in front of them. I feel really bad for all the people in the newer condos where they rely entirely on the building air conditioner, and their windows are just awning-style that only swing open a couple inches. Living in a place where you couldn't open the windows at all would drive me absolutely crazy. I work for a building materials company. One way we have analyzed homeowners is that there are "window people" and there are "HVAC people". Most people (in the US) are HVAC people and will very infrequently open their windows or occasionally open maybe two windows in their home. While you may feel sorry for those condo dwellers, they likely have never given it any serious thought.
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Sep 1, 2021 20:50
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Smithwick posted:I work for a building materials company. One way we have analyzed homeowners is that there are "window people" and there are "HVAC people". Most people (in the US) are HVAC people and will very infrequently open their windows or occasionally open maybe two windows in their home. While you may feel sorry for those condo dwellers, they likely have never given it any serious thought. Yes, but I still pity them, the freaks.
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Sep 1, 2021 21:19
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Casements and awnings rule you weirdos. We've put them in 100's of projects without issues. A hung or slider will never be as energy efficient, and being able to crank them open just a little bit without using a security stick is the best.
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Sep 1, 2021 23:05
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As an American, I strongly believe the American building standards and house construction methods, are, in general, complete and utter poo poo (I think I've gone off in this thread before about how stupid it is that everything is built out of wood, to which all the Americans immediately went "what, you want to make it out of EXPENSIVE stuff? Why on earth would you do that, the house only needs to last 40 years!"). However: A) Windows with built-in screens are objectively better and not even a thing I had considered wouldn't be used. Someone argued that triple-glazed plus screens made the window too thick, which is...dumb. If you're using passive house standards, your walls are gonna be poo poo-rear end thick ANYWAY, so who cares if the window unit is 5 inches thick on its own to accommodate double two inch thick window sashes plus an inch of screen channel? And if you're not using passive house standards, why the gently caress are you bothering with triple glazing? B) Someone from Finland arguing that opening the windows requires extra heat so it's more efficient to just use an air exchanger all the time, and then OTHER people from Finland glomming on to explain how the bottom of Finland only reaches 25 C during a heatwave and the country goes on for a thousand kilometers above that so you see of COURSE this makes sense - hey. Hey fucko numbnuts. You're not wrong. For FINLAND. It's one thing to say it's the objectively more efficient solution in a country with half above the loving Arctic Circle, it's another entirely to claim it's the most efficient solution for the entire world. Guess what, you live in an icebox. It would be just as dumb for someone from Qatar to claim that opening the windows is the best way to cool their house. But guess what, only minor portions of the United States have sustained temperature extremes of that sort. Sure, the Midwest for example gets to 40 C at points and -40 C at other points and sucks donkey nuts in all other respects, but for much of the year it's fine to just open the windows to cool the house, so yeah, the reason everyone thinks you're morons is that you're claiming the way things work best in Finland is also the way things should work best in the rest of the world, and, y'know, it isn't. This (claiming your way is the best way) is also something that Americans get accused of all the time, not entirely wrongly, so it's especially hilarious that you're doing it. C) America needs to change all its building standards to passive house, triple-glazed windows, three-in-one solar roofing, and ban wood in termite zones or for any exterior use. D) I want to throttle all the loving A/C manufacturers who have decided that the AMAZING INNOVATION of a variable-speed compressor somehow requires proprietary control. Which is just code for "we want money". It's bad enough that HVAC efficiency is still in the toilet (what's the minimum now? 14 SEER? WHOOP DE FUCKIN DOO), but for them to just gouge everyone if you want more efficiency than a dual-speed motor by forcing you to buy their proprietary thermostat is shittery of the highest order. But because of "the free market", i.e. no regulation, that's just what we deserve and what we get. Integrating my HVAC with my home automation shouldn't require me to do a science project with an Arduino, Raspberry Pi, and some horribly documented map of what voltages the proprietary thermostat churns out to send the motor such futuristic commands as "spin slower. OK now a little faster. OK a lot faster. OK slower. OK off". Thanks America!
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Sep 1, 2021 23:15
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SyNack Sassimov posted:As an American, I strongly believe the American building standards and house construction methods, are, in general, complete and utter poo poo (I think I've gone off in this thread before about how stupid it is that everything is built out of wood, to which all the Americans immediately went "what, you want to make it out of EXPENSIVE stuff? Why on earth would you do that, the house only needs to last 40 years!"). However: 
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Sep 1, 2021 23:21
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Smithwick posted:Most people (in the US) are HVAC people and will very infrequently open their windows or occasionally open maybe two windows in their home. As someone in the Mid-Atlantic, Spring is frequently a pollen-fest, like your car turns yellow levels of pollen. Summer is super-humid and too warm to be comfortable during the day. Fall has a few window-compatible weeks, when it's not raining, but it's short before the cold starts. Running the AC enough to cut the humidity and keep it pleasant, say 75F, isn't that expensive. Maybe $100/m in electric for a 2500 sq/ft house. It's worth it for the balanced temps and air filtration.
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Sep 2, 2021 00:18
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Motronic posted:Yes, clearly the badly designed house is the one that doesn't require electrically powered equipment to cool....... Speaking as a Texan, there are approximately two months out of the year that opening windows is any way shape or form palatable, and I'm in North Texas. Further south is miserable in summer, or, as we call it, "not the two months of year that pass for winter" (mind you, winter 2020/21, aka, The Snowpacolypse, made up for several mild not-really-winters.) And I have a 1960s house that is basically designed as a rat maze, so even with the windows open, "flow-through" is not a thing. Air conditioning is a life-saving device in the South, not a convenience. I am seriously considering a mini-split in the garage just to keep it something approaching "not melting" when I work out there.
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Sep 2, 2021 00:28
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B-Nasty posted:As someone in the Mid-Atlantic, Spring is frequently a pollen-fest, like your car turns yellow levels of pollen. Summer is super-humid and too warm to be comfortable during the day. Fall has a few window-compatible weeks, when it's not raining, but it's short before the cold starts. It's the same where I am in south-central Texas. There are usually a few nice weeks of weather we get where the temperature and humidity would be good for opening windows, but there's so much pollen in the air that it's worth running the AC just for the air filtration.
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Sep 2, 2021 01:51
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Someone narc'd on y'all for not posting  worthy material in two pages maybe more I got bored not seeing awful construction. Let's see some cut engineered joists.
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Sep 2, 2021 02:49
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Ashcans posted:Didn't we have an actual post in this thread about a guy in PA who heated his house with a coal furnace in winter and used open windows to regulate the resulting blazing heat? From 1890 to the 1930s, steam heat systems in the states were specifically sized to be used with windows open 1" for ventilation. Fossil fuels were cheap.
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Sep 2, 2021 03:09
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MRC48B posted:From 1890 to the 1930s, steam heat systems in the states were specifically sized to be used with windows open 1" for ventilation. Same for wood fired stoves - our 1890 house has dedicated chimneys for 1-3 wood stoves depending on room size. Mind you these were small stoves, 16x16 chimneys. Wood scraps were plentiful from the local mill.
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Sep 2, 2021 03:43
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SyNack Sassimov posted:B) Someone from Finland arguing that opening the windows requires extra heat so it's more efficient to just use an air exchanger all the time, and then OTHER people from Finland glomming on to explain how the bottom of Finland only reaches 25 C during a heatwave and the country goes on for a thousand kilometers above that so you see of COURSE this makes sense - hey. Hey fucko numbnuts. You're not wrong. For FINLAND. It's one thing to say it's the objectively more efficient solution in a country with half above the loving Arctic Circle, it's another entirely to claim it's the most efficient solution for the entire world. Guess what, you live in an icebox. It would be just as dumb for someone from Qatar to claim that opening the windows is the best way to cool their house. But guess what, only minor portions of the United States have sustained temperature extremes of that sort. Sure, the Midwest for example gets to 40 C at points and -40 C at other points and sucks donkey nuts in all other respects, but for much of the year it's fine to just open the windows to cool the house, so yeah, the reason everyone thinks you're morons is that you're claiming the way things work best in Finland is also the way things should work best in the rest of the world, and, y'know, it isn't. This (claiming your way is the best way) is also something that Americans get accused of all the time, not entirely wrongly, so it's especially hilarious that you're doing it. I didn't say that, you're just being pissy. You also have no numbers to show where heat recovery ventilation would be more effecive than passive ventilation. It's entirely possible there are large swathes of the northern and interior US where it would be a net positive from an energy efficiency stand point, it depends on a lot of factors. You also forget and ignore that the heat recovery works both ways, if the indoor air is cooler, then it cools the incoming air, lessening the demand on the AC. So until someone produces numbers and does actual research it's all guess work. But suffice to say in climates like scandinavia it's worth it (on new construction) and I believe northern germany too. So say our energy efficiency research and guidlines for construction. EDIT: Also, this is not a european, scandinavian or a finnish thing either so we can really put away these last pages of americans thinking this is a US/Euro thing. Here's american builder Matt Risinger showing some of these ventilation systems, including a model meant for the south of the US. So yeah these products are on the market and they even got a version I've never heard of here for warmer climates (ERVs), so obviously not an unknown thing in the US and you've even developed it in ways to make it suitable in the south... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RtbwkI2lH0 His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 04:10
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Motronic posted:Now we're getting somewhere. I agree that this is not a sane scenario, but not for the reasons you think: the insane part of this scenario is believing you have to have your inside temperature at exactly 21c all the time. I think what he's getting at is that it is rarely a comfortable (warm) temperature where he lives and that the house is thus designed to retain heat as much as possible. In such a scenario I can see how cross-ventilation by opening windows everywhere may only be A (possible) Thing a couple weeks a year, and that it is far more energy-efficient to build with fixed units. Meanwhile, here in New Jersey, being able to cross-ventilate is one of the highlights of spring. Until the mosquitoes hatch.
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Sep 2, 2021 04:11
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MRC48B posted:From 1890 to the 1930s, steam heat systems in the states were specifically sized to be used with windows open 1" for ventilation. "Fresh air" was an obsession. People thought the tightly-sealed Victorian houses with gas lamps were bad for your lungs, and it was vital to breathe outdoors air. You walked your baby in a baby carriage so it could get fresh air. You hung your baby out a window so it could get fresh air. (In cities full of coal smoke, but welp.)  Having windows open was good for your health, and helped prevent tuberculosis. I was raised in the '60s, and getting fresh air was still a big deal; "go outside and get some fresh air." I still prefer sleeping with a window open. My husband and I slept with a window cracked open even when we lived somewhere that regularly had 10-below (Fahrenheit) temperatures.
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Sep 2, 2021 04:15
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Arsenic Lupin posted:"Fresh air" was an obsession. People thought the tightly-sealed Victorian houses with gas lamps were bad for your lungs, and it was vital to breathe outdoors air. You walked your baby in a baby carriage so it could get fresh air. You hung your baby out a window so it could get fresh air. (In cities full of coal smoke, but welp.) When you put it like that, I begin to wonder how much of our preferences for a very cool room when sleeping have more to do with what we're used to than physiology.
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Sep 2, 2021 04:32
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His Divine Shadow posted:I didn't say that, you're just being pissy. You also have no numbers to show where heat recovery ventilation would be more effecive than passive ventilation. It's entirely possible there are large swathes of the northern and interior US where it would be a net positive from an energy efficiency stand point, it depends on a lot of factors. You also forget and ignore that the heat recovery works both ways, if the indoor air is cooler, then it cools the incoming air, lessening the demand on the AC. So until someone produces numbers and does actual research it's all guess work. But suffice to say in climates like scandinavia it's worth it (on new construction) and I believe northern germany too. So say our energy efficiency research and guidlines for construction. You're very upset for a post where they said you're not wrong for your climate. The point stands that if the temp outside is more desirable than the temp inside an open window uses less energy than anything running on electricity. That happens a lot of places. Or if you're me, you let the house get hot all day in the summer and cool down in the evening. Denver Colorado for reference.
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Sep 2, 2021 04:42
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BonerGhost posted:When you put it like that, I begin to wonder how much of our preferences for a very cool room when sleeping have more to do with what we're used to than physiology. feels good man
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Sep 2, 2021 04:45
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All my windows are open right now. It’s 50F outside and feels fantastic.
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Sep 2, 2021 04:53
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StormDrain posted:You're very upset for a post where they said you're not wrong for your climate. Mostly I was annoyed at the tone of the post, and how it assumed it wasn't viable in a bunch of other places. I mean it's a complicated issue. Sure I agree with the 2nd point under those conditions. As long as we can agree the opposite is true in a lot of places too. And we need to factor in the whole years worth of climate conditions to be able to calculate if it ends up saving energy or costing energy. I'm glad then if we can agree on that.
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Sep 2, 2021 05:03
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https://twitter.com/who_shot_jgr/status/1433212317714550785?s=20 *Not actually the Groverhouse
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Sep 2, 2021 05:09
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His Divine Shadow posted:Mostly I was annoyed at the tone of the post, and how it assumed it wasn't viable in a bunch of other places. I mean it's a complicated issue. Why would anyone disagree with the opposite? Which would be if the temperature outside is less desirable than inside opening the window is bad and would waste energy? People don't open the window to make it worse inside. I thought the whole discussion started with "opening windows is nice if it's nice out".
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Sep 2, 2021 05:11
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D34THROW posted:We're talking about two different things. If it's a 90° turn handle and then just a literal hinge like a door plus some piece of hardware to keep it up, that's great. I'm talking about crank-out awning-type and casement-type windows, with a crank handle (housing plus gears and a swing arm, which if any one piece goes, the whole thing's shot), vent hooks, vent locks, torque bars, bearings, and about ten other parts that all have to work in sync perfectly. I work in the window and door industry and sold hundreds of those parts while I worked retail. Eh, we have some 60s bronze crank casements (though with steel mechanisms), and they've been pretty decent. We're about 1/8 mile from the ocean (maybe less). While the brass helps, most of the mechanism is steel. They're pretty easy to fix and parts are still available, though I guess that's an advantage of high end windows.
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Sep 2, 2021 06:11
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Platystemon posted:https://twitter.com/who_shot_jgr/status/1433212317714550785?s=20 Way to get my hopes up.
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Sep 2, 2021 06:35
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Why are goons always so pointlessly, stupidly macho about air conditioning? 
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Sep 2, 2021 09:01
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