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JordanKai posted:Genuine question: why is card-based gameplay such a turn-off for so many people? Is it the looming threat of microtransactions and pay-to-win design? Yes, but also what Nippon said. I don't know, I think I'm just getting old and losing patience if a game isn't exactly what I'm looking for.
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Sep 2, 2021 02:19
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I find card games just tend to be way too much management. I want to just go in and play my game, not spend three hours building decks and then deciding what to use where every level
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Sep 2, 2021 02:22
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JordanKai posted:Genuine question: why is card-based gameplay such a turn-off for so many people? Is it the looming threat of microtransactions and pay-to-win design? That's part of it. Part of it is that I just don't like the look and feel of digital cards, I find them kinda... tacky, I suppose. Part if it's that I feel like card gaming is a distinct type of gameplay that I don't go to video games for. Part of it is a sorta immersion thing I figure, as cards they are a necessary abstraction on tabletop, but that kind of abstraction is unnecessary in a video game; it makes it feel like there's an artificial layer between me and the game. Mechanically, getting a +1 Sword Card may be exactly the same as getting a +1 Sword, but the +1 Sword represents something in the game world, whereas the +1 Sword Card represents an abstraction of something represented in the game world. My one exception is the 1996 M:tG game, probably because I was a kid when I played it so it gets grandfathered in.
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Sep 2, 2021 02:27
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Retro Futurist posted:I find card games just tend to be way too much management. I want to just go in and play my game, not spend three hours building decks and then deciding what to use where every level A good card-based game has a good deck builder so you can mash something solid together in 2 mins or take the time to make something really bespoke if you want. And not sure how 'random hand of cards' is any different than 'randomly rolled stats on faceless Xcom mans'. Both dictate your decisions. And making decisions that are constrained by rules and situations is basically how games (video and otherwise) work.
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Sep 2, 2021 03:41
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They also posted a much longer gameplay reveal. Nothing really too new but it has a more nuanced overview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRieHP1b7Gs
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Sep 2, 2021 08:46
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Nipponophile posted:For me, it's all to do with player agency. If I make a stupid choice and the game punishes me for it, fair cop. When my choices are artificially limited to begin with, I lose interest. I play video games to have the freedom and control that I might lack elsewhere in life, so being restricted to a few actions decided by RNG is a layer of bullshit I don't need in my entertainment. Because the XCOM formula of being outgunned soldiers against a superior force with limited actions and options that slowly expand over the course of a game does not fit with a superhero game and it'd be weird. Jake Solomon said as much when this game was initially revealed. Card games are not just about getting hosed by RNG. They're about mitigating RNG and building around it. A lot like playing a strategy game where your characters can live or die based on random accuracy rolls. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 10:18
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Love playing XCOM and having no RNG to effect my gameplay at all *misses 99% shot*
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Sep 2, 2021 13:17
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There's a qualitative difference in feel between RNG that effects your outcomes and RNG that effects your options. An X-Com sniper might hit, or they might miss, but they'll never flat out not be able to snipe just because I didn't draw any Snipe! cards this round. Also, the kind of RNG in an X-Com game can be partially obviated in real time through tactical considerations; if my sniper keeps missing, I can reposition them to somewhere where they have a better chance of hitting. If I keep failing to draw Snipe! cards, my only recourse is to eject out of the fight, go back, and put more Snipe! cards in my deck. If you're really into deckbuilding the latter is a feature, not a bug, but for me it's a bug.
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Sep 2, 2021 13:46
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Yeah that impossible situation you made up sure would suck. What will actually happen is that your sniper has 6 different ways to snipe and on a given turn you'll have 3 or 4 of them available.
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Sep 2, 2021 13:52
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Aphrodite posted:Yeah that impossible situation you made up sure would suck. Actual example: Taunting enemies is a card they showed in the demo. I want Captain Marvel to taunt enemies to draw fire away from Dr. Strange, but I can't because I didn't draw any taunt cards last round, or this round, or maybe for the entire fight because that's how RNG works. In X-Com, provided Captain Marvel had the Taunt ability, I could at least try. It might fail, it might fail several times in a row, so that the actual outcome is the same, but there's a qualitative difference in feel between trying and failing and not being able to try at all. I'm not even saying it's bad game design, it's just game design I don't like. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 13:59
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JordanKai posted:Genuine question: why is card-based gameplay such a turn-off for so many people? Is it the looming threat of microtransactions and pay-to-win design? There's that, and the game-specific complaints about stuff like RNG and fiddling around with management that people have mentioned, but on a real deep lizard brain level I dislike it as an additional layer of abstraction to the already abstract nature of video games. It's like controlling an actual motor vehicle with a remote control. Just let me drive the thing. It's one thing if it's an optional minigame like GWENT or the casino poo poo in GTA, but when it's a core mechanic it... if I wanted to play a card game, I'd do that. Blockhouse posted:Because the XCOM formula of being outgunned soldiers against a superior force with limited actions and options that slowly expand over the course of a game does not fit with a superhero game and it'd be weird. Most people would say the Dragon Questy formula of turn based battles featuring magic and summons wouldn't work for a game about crime shenanigan in contemporary Japan, but people seem to love Yakuza 7
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Sep 2, 2021 14:18
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I'm hype for this game because Firaxis and Marvel, but the whole card-based thing really puts a damper on it. I just don't like the RNG associated with card-based things. RNG from XCOM I can handle, since I know what I'm getting into, but I don't like going into encounters not knowing the tools I'm going to have to deal with the mission.
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Sep 2, 2021 14:31
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I hope you don’t craft new cards via a gatcha mechanic
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Sep 2, 2021 15:22
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Blockhouse posted:Because the XCOM formula of being outgunned soldiers against a superior force with limited actions and options that slowly expand over the course of a game does not fit with a superhero game and it'd be weird. Jake Solomon said as much when this game was initially revealed. Hard disagree. Just vary the power levels of the enemies or gimp some of the heroes a little bit (Hulk can't Hulk, Tony's armor is in disrepair, Thor lost his hammer). A tactical superhero RPG sounds pretty baller to me and solves some of the "too much happening at once" issues I had with Xmen and Avengers Alliance or whatever they were called. For that matter, you could even find ways to simply limit the hero roster and make some levels Widow, Cap and Hawkeye style affairs where, meanwhile, the heavier hitters are over HERE doing some other poo poo and do a "we need to split up" deal. Other levels could be player's choice and then just design the levels to where the underpowered members are still useful somehow. For instance, Hawkeye has to take out those alarms/cameras before some big enemy monsters are alerted and Widow needs to sneak through some area and disable some computer or whatever that controls a huge gently caress off laser robot tank. I think it could also open up strategy where the idea of keeping the lower leveled heroes safe and out of harm's way is part of the map and moving around it.
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Sep 2, 2021 15:30
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:There's a qualitative difference in feel between RNG that effects your outcomes and RNG that effects your options. An X-Com sniper might hit, or they might miss, but they'll never flat out not be able to snipe just because I didn't draw any Snipe! cards this round. Just going back to this, even this point isn't true. If you are talking about the Fireaxis XCOM games there were easily situations where your sniper couldn't snipe. They hadn't reloaded on the last turn, you had to move them, an enemy used a power on them, they didn't have LOS etc... There were all kinds of situations where you didn't have the chance to snipe and the action was denied to a player for a turn. The card system is just a further abstration of this. "The rules say you can't do this thing you want to do this turn." It's just more blatant about it.
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Sep 2, 2021 18:11
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Abroham Lincoln posted:They also posted a much longer gameplay reveal. Nothing really too new but it has a more nuanced overview. Bad voiceover but I am in. Been loving cardbuilders like StS and Monstertrain lately and I trust Jake Solomon to make a fun, if somewhat janky, game
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Sep 2, 2021 18:14
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The Question IRL posted:Just going back to this, even this point isn't true. TBF there is a difference between "I forgot to make my dude reload" and "I didn't get the right card" in terms of player agency, but I think both types of games are totally valid and fun and this looks cool to me.
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Sep 2, 2021 18:27
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The Question IRL posted:Just going back to this, even this point isn't true. The XCom approach has player options during a battle dictated by player choice, and outcomes partially dictated by random chance, and the card base approach has player options dictated by random chance, and outcomes by player choice (and maybe also by random chance, depending on how the system works). The two methods feel different, and some people strongly prefer one to the other. quote:The card system is just a further abstration of this. "The rules say you can't do this thing you want to do this turn." Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 18:29
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As someone who's lost hundreds of hours playing Slay the Spire over the last year this I'm actually more excited for this game that before.
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Sep 2, 2021 19:08
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Again, just play cards (or card based games) if you wanna do that. It's a different kind of fun. I don't play board games or card based table top stuff and then wish that me and all my friends were all really at home doing it over the internet. Like, I can play poker over the internet but a big part of the fun, to me, is getting everyone together, exchanging money, telling jokes, making eye contact, drinking beer, bluffing and flipping your cards. I can shoot pool, or bowl on a Wii but going out and doing it is different and more fun. Someone else mentioned how the card dynamic adds another unneeded layer or something to a medium that's already designed to be interactive, graphic and stat based that I thought was an apt description of my problem here. Like, to me, playing a game like, say, Strat-O-Matic baseball on a computer feels cold, detached and impersonal without the dice and the cards. Same with chess or Axis & Allies. I like the tacit physical element to rolling dice, dealing cards and moving pieces around along with eating pizza with my friends but I also like tactical CPU games like Command & Conquer or Xcom where I can skip the setup or whatever. Playing Last Night on Earth, Ticket to Ride, Arkham Horror, Gloomhaven, Blood Bowl or Settlers of Cattan without anyone around would feel synthetic and impersonal. Unsocial. Different. And would defeat the purpose. Playing Left 4 Dead, Street Fighter, Madden or Call of Duty is a different matter and a separate type of experience that I can only get from a video game. It's like playing D&D with your friends on a table with dice, books and character sheets instead of WoW, Neverwinter Nights or Skyrim. It's the whole Phil Hartman SNL skit they did where you read a virtual book next to a cpu/vr fireplace while smoking a cigar wearing a bathrobe and VR glasses that is totally more exciting than actually reading a book. Which I can't find a link for but maybe someone knows about it. Two things can be fun without needing to be combined. Adding card elements to video games is like adding explosion effects to chess. Similar to how I have no interest in playing board game versions of Tetris, PacMan, Asteroids or Galaga. TL/DR: Play a game of cards if you want to do poker or MTG and build decks of cards.
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Sep 2, 2021 19:17
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BiggerBoat posted:Again, just play cards (or card based games) if you wanna do that. It's a different kind of fun. This is an absolutely loving wild and stupidly condescending post to make. People like deckbuilder games - obviously, since they keep being made. I don't want to play Magic the Gathering sometimes. I want to play Slay the Spire, a game that uses cards in a different way than a physical game really could. Please don't try and tell me what I should actually want to play because it's a genre you specifically don't care for.
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Sep 2, 2021 19:20
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Yeah, if it's not the way I like to play it's wrong!
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Sep 2, 2021 19:22
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If Blade says there's always someone trying to ice skate uphill it's game of the year 10/10.
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Sep 2, 2021 19:39
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BiggerBoat posted:Again, just play cards (or card based games) if you wanna do that. It's a different kind of fun. Fun fact: If this game does not appeal to you, you do not have to play it! You can play XCOM! It's right there!
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Sep 2, 2021 19:43
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I didn't mean to be condescending. Just chiming in with my own personal opinion and backing up goons who don;t want to play deck building games on their PC's and consoles with superhero games. I don't see where I attacked anybody 
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Sep 2, 2021 19:44
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BiggerBoat posted:I didn't mean to be condescending. Just chiming in with my own personal opinion and backing up goons who don;t want to play deck building games on their PC's and consoles with superhero games.
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Sep 2, 2021 19:49
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BiggerBoat posted:I didn't mean to be condescending. Just chiming in with my own personal opinion and backing up goons who don;t want to play deck building games on their PC's and consoles with superhero games. You were making an authoritative statement about Actually if you want to play this game what you really want to do is go play this other game, that way they'll stop making gases I don't like. That isn't "hey man this is just my opinion" it's a lecture and came off like you think you're the Boss of Video Games. You really can't see how the tone in that post came off as condescending?
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Sep 2, 2021 19:51
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Sorry. Sorry everyone. Seriously. I was only speaking for myself. Card game mechanics in video games are fine and knock yourselves out if you like that stuff. Jesus.
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Sep 2, 2021 21:05
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I'm willing to check out Marvel: Chain of Memories. Marvel: Battle Network.
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Sep 2, 2021 23:27
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A lot of the discussion of card-based mechanics here seems to be from a time before Slay the Spire came out TBH. Deckbuilder games are one of the most prolific and population genres in the world right now and Midnight Sons isn't even the first SRPG to use the card-based mechanics. There are a *lot* of excellently crafted and well-designed cardbuilder games available now which are not P2W or involving hours upon hours of design. The cards basically function as a skillset that you can modify and build around. Like you have tower defense like Monster Train, Action like Hand of Fate, JRPG like Steamworld: Quest, etc, etc. Almost all of them are designed to be simple and easy to pick up instead of requiring dozens of hours with the cards being used as a shorthand for more in-depth mechanics with more reliable outcomes. This doesn't mean you have to like all or even any of those games but if your response is "how dare it have CARDS?!" as if that isn't one of the most common and accessible methods of gameplay design in the modern market, I'm not sure what to say. Especially because going "If you want to play a card game play MTG" requires somehow missing that the majority of deckbuilders do not replay remotely like MTG because they are focused on PvE design instead of PVP. (And most PVP stuff these days just knocks off Hearthstone.) Old Kentucky Shark posted:Yes, and all of those are tactical considerations at least partially within the control of the player in that situation, not outcomes generated purely by random chance. There's a fundamental difference between not being able to do something because of choices I made last turn, (to use a power with a recharge mechanism, to deploy a character in a position vulnerable to enemy attack) and not being able to do something because of random chance. X-COM is literally built around random chance. If anything it takes significantly more control out of the player's hands than a deckbuilder does because it is heavily about RNG. That is part of the fun of the game, learning how to deal with bad rolls of the dice, but that is the entire point. The fact that everything isn't in your control is a feature, not a bug. Likewise deckbuilders give you a ton of control over what happens. You're not just shrugging and praying for a good card because they are designed to give you ways to get the cards you need. Sometimes its subtle, like how Monster Train has artificial weighting to assure you'll draw important cards in certain turns, or sometimes its directly under the player's control through use of special skills or cards that can do certain things. It's possible to get a bad draw in a deckbuilder but it's exactly the same situation as missing a 99% chance to hit in XCOM. Sometimes you get a bad draw and have to figure out how to deal with it but the goal is to create a situation where you can survive that happening and minimize the chance of it happening. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 2, 2021 23:42
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Dawgstar posted:If Blade says there's always someone trying to ice skate uphill it's game of the year 10/10. But on the other hand, the game won't let my character smooch Nico or Magik or Captain America.
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Sep 2, 2021 23:49
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I think I understand the knee jerk reactions tbh. I've always habitually avoided games with card mechanics just because it sounds like something I wouldn't like. Playing the Back 4 Blood beta made me break down and engage with it and I realized like, "oh this isn't a bolted on card game it's just a weird way to present these upgrades and make them semi-random."
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Sep 2, 2021 23:51
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We also have no idea how the decks work from what I saw? Maybe you always have 3 attacks and 3 powers, maybe you choose your starting hand, can pin cards etc. I only skimmed through the video but I didn't see anything about the actual deck building shown. It also depends on the importance of mechanics like taunt in the gameplay. A taunt may be treated as a rarer thing that can swing the tide of the fight, rather than an essential mechanic to protect Dr. Strange regularly. They're not going to build the game around a mechanic that can gently caress you over, they're not idiots.
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Sep 3, 2021 00:26
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Codependent Poster posted:But on the other hand, the game won't let my character smooch Nico or Magik or Captain America. Especially all at once because at least Illyana would be down for that. You're right, worst game of the year 0/10.
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Sep 3, 2021 00:50
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Aphrodite posted:They're not going to build the game around a mechanic that can gently caress you over, they're not idiots. This is what really gets me about all the dismissive skepticism: Firaxis very clearly knows how to make game systems. They're not randos coming up with a brand new deckbuilding-based strategy RPG. These guys more or less took the bare essential ideas of UFO Defense and build an entirely new game around them. I'd like to think they have the benefit of the doubt.
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Sep 3, 2021 01:29
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Cards or not, who am I kidding? I’m going to buy it, likely day 1.
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Sep 3, 2021 01:30
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Blockhouse posted:This is what really gets me about all the dismissive skepticism: Firaxis very clearly knows how to make game systems. They're not randos coming up with a brand new deckbuilding-based strategy RPG. These guys more or less took the bare essential ideas of UFO Defense and build an entirely new game around them. I'd like to think they have the benefit of the doubt. On a serious note, this is what I think. While it only takes a game to squander it, Firaxis feels like they've earned a smidge of goodwill.
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Sep 3, 2021 02:09
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Ok, Jesus, I'm sorry I don't like digital cards.
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Sep 3, 2021 05:03
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BiggerBoat posted:Again, just play cards (or card based games) if you wanna do that. It's a different kind of fun. Look at this motherfucker that never played Battlechess,
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Sep 3, 2021 06:05
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The Midniter posted:Cards or not, who am I kidding? I’m going to buy it, likely day 1. A Marvel RPG where I can have Magik, Doc Strange and Blade on the same team at the same time (I'm assuming you can have 4 people at the same time on your team including the new character) gently caress yeah.
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Sep 3, 2021 06:09
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