TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Mr.Misfit: Jan 10, 2013; The time for
SkellyBones
has come!

Froghammer posted:

I mean, let's get in the weeds here.

Central to fascism is the idea that things used to be better than they are. When you apply that logic to art, then the only art that fascists like are pieces of art that reference other pieces of art that they like. This means games have to be reminiscent of other games and stick to specific genre guidelines; "this is a first person shooter" or "this is a turn-based RPG" or other types of games that are similar to types of games they've played dozens of before. Put a brand new genre or experience in front of these people and they'll lose their minds, because they'll have no context for it. The debate over "walking simulators" has largely been settled, but their existence was a huge industry talking point for a while. A chunk of gamers thought that they straight up weren't games, and that faction only died down once the genre had become established enough that it could become self-referential.

You see this attitude a lot in the TRPG-sphere, with people prefering to ignore whatever new ground is being broken in game design space and only sticking to versions of Dungeons and Dragons that are 40 years old. Only things that reference the mindset that those games were trying to establish is worth saving and preserving. Everything else is a perversion of the hobby.

If you like new stuff, and the reason you like it is because it's new and not because it's meant to remind you of something you've experienced before, then you're probably not a fascist.

I find this highly fascinating, and if I may ask,
is the immediate logic here that: "someone who follows the basic logic that you can only recognize something as worthy if its referential"
necessarily fascist or is it something like one of the pillars of authoritarian thought?
Basically reactionary ideologies require this thinking, whether �ts fascist nor not? Or is this mindset always fascist?

# ? Sep 7, 2021 22:23

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:49

Gatto Grigio: Feb 9, 2020

Mr.Misfit posted:

I find this highly fascinating, and if I may ask,
is the immediate logic here that: "someone who follows the basic logic that you can only recognize something as worthy if its referential"
necessarily fascist or is it something like one of the pillars of authoritarian thought?
Basically reactionary ideologies require this thinking, whether �ts fascist nor not? Or is this mindset always fascist?

Reverence of the past isn't necessarily fascist, just as an archaeologist isn't, by virtue of their subject, fascist. What separates the historian's view of the past from the fascist's view of the past is critical thinking. A fascist, unlike a good historian, looks at the past uncritically and expects the world to conform to that warped, idealized view of history.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 22:45

Froghammer: Sep 8, 2012; Khajit has wares
if you have coin

Mr.Misfit posted:

I find this highly fascinating, and if I may ask,
is the immediate logic here that: "someone who follows the basic logic that you can only recognize something as worthy if its referential"
necessarily fascist or is it something like one of the pillars of authoritarian thought?
Basically reactionary ideologies require this thinking, whether �ts fascist nor not? Or is this mindset always fascist?

I mean, the mindset that "Art X used to be good until that pesky group Y started meddling with it, then it started all going downhill" is pretty fashy, so kind of? A person thinking that art is static and perfect and can only be deviated can absolutely be weaponized by bad actors.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 22:59

Froghammer: Sep 8, 2012; Khajit has wares
if you have coin

If ya'll ever wondered why a chunk of the OSR crowd leans fashy, this is one of the big reasons why

# ? Sep 7, 2021 23:05

KingKalamari: Aug 24, 2007; Fuzzy dice, bongos in the back
My ship of love is ready to attack

Froghammer posted:

I mean, let's get in the weeds here.

Central to fascism is the idea that things used to be better than they are. When you apply that logic to art, then the only art that fascists like are pieces of art that reference other pieces of art that they like. This means games have to be reminiscent of other games and stick to specific genre guidelines; "this is a first person shooter" or "this is a turn-based RPG" or other types of games that are similar to types of games they've played dozens of before. Put a brand new genre or experience in front of these people and they'll lose their minds, because they'll have no context for it. The debate over "walking simulators" has largely been settled, but their existence was a huge industry talking point for a while. A chunk of gamers thought that they straight up weren't games, and that faction only died down once the genre had become established enough that it could become self-referential.

You see this attitude a lot in the TRPG-sphere, with people prefering to ignore whatever new ground is being broken in game design space and only sticking to versions of Dungeons and Dragons that are 40 years old. Only things that reference the mindset that those games were trying to establish is worth saving and preserving. Everything else is a perversion of the hobby.

If you like new stuff, and the reason you like it is because it's new and not because it's meant to remind you of something you've experienced before, then you're probably not a fascist.

And I think that's what made the far right's strategy of actively targeting gamers and other nerds for recruitment such an effective strategy: Your average grog (As we understand the term on these forums) tends to already be working under a similar logical framework to reactionaries, it's just targeted towards poo poo that most people don't give a crap about. All the far right has to do is make the angrily-nostalgic think that women/minorities/lgbtq+ were responsible for changing the media they consume from the imagined, ideal state they're nostalgic for.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 23:10

Froghammer: Sep 8, 2012; Khajit has wares
if you have coin

It's simpler than that; fascism is nerds all the way down. Nazis are obsessed with Nordic mythology. Mussolini was obsessed with Roman mythology. The Ku Klux Klan literally names its various ranks (Dragon, Cyclops, Wizard) after words from heroic fantasy.

To be a fascist, you have to be a nerd first

# ? Sep 7, 2021 23:35

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Froghammer posted:

If ya'll ever wondered why a chunk of the OSR crowd leans fashy, this is one of the big reasons why

I got into the OSR because I like really impractical things and someone showed off his seven-sided dice to me and we played a game of Dungeon Crawl Classics. I really enjoyed *that* style of play, and I always liked the idea of Dungeon Survival with tactical play. I just really dislike 5e's style of game design. I enjoy 4e for similar reasons, because you can basically teach yourself game design building encounters for that kickass system doing it.

(I also like NWoD because no matter how OP you can become HOLY poo poo combat can get really brutal and down in the dirt, especially if its changeling or hunter, but I gave up trying to find a group after three absolutely horrific play groups with some of the most obnoxious, awful people I have ever met. They were deep into the Geek Social Fallacies weeds, those ones, I remember a decent room mate complaining to a visiting friend about the endless racist, sexist and homophobic comments made, the endless, horrendous transphobia and wondering why the hell she didn't just bail, there were like six of the twelve people in that group that weren't dumpster fire, and they all had cars...but then I learned about the GFS theory and it made more sense.)

There's a pretty strict line between "I like old-school art/simple systems that are modular/difficult gameplay" and "DnD was loving ruined around the time I turned 12". The original OSR was literally just people using OSRIC and being grouches about newer editions, and then people started investigating the older styles of play and finding it was really unique and interesting compared to the more modern ones.

Froghammer posted:

It's simpler than that; fascism is nerds all the way down. Nazis are obsessed with Nordic mythology. Mussolini was obsessed with Roman mythology. The Ku Klux Klan literally names its various ranks (Dragon, Cyclops, Wizard) after words from heroic fantasy.

To be a fascist, you have to be a nerd first

I thought the KKK's whole idea with that was to make them look like nerds so they'd seem more stupid than dangerous

# ? Sep 7, 2021 23:38

Terrible Opinions: Oct 18, 2013

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

I thought the KKK's whole idea with that was to make them look like nerds so they'd seem more stupid than dangerous

This is an after the fact justification by the revival clan. The original terrorist organization spawned out of Confederate soldiers was completely earnest. These were also men who constantly talked about how Chevalier blood flowed through their veins during the war and that the Yankees were reincarnations of Puritan witch hunters. So also reactionary shitheels comparing their opposition to puritans has been a thing since literally the moment the Puritans lost the English Civil war.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 23:43

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Terrible Opinions posted:

This is an after the fact justification by the revival clan. The original terrorist organization spawned out of Confederate soldiers was completely earnest. These were also men who constantly talked about how Chevalier blood flowed through their veins during the war and that the Yankees were reincarnations of Puritan witch hunters. So also reactionary shitheels comparing their opposition to puritans has been a thing since literally the moment the Puritans lost the English Civil war.

okay, fair. I got that information from Thought Slime, who used it as one of many examples of far right groups intentionally disguising themselves as dorks.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 23:45

zachol: Feb 13, 2009; Once per turn, you can Tribute 1 WATER monster you control (except this card) to Special Summon 1 WATER monster from your hand. The monster Special Summoned by this effect is destroyed if "Raging Eria" is removed from your side of the field.

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

"DnD was loving ruined around the time I turned 12"

They released Sword and Fist for 3.0 around the time I turned 12, which was definitely pretty ruinous, but maybe not in the way some OSR types would think.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 23:53

Coolness Averted: Feb 20, 2007; oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

okay, fair. I got that information from Thought Slime, who used it as one of many examples of far right groups intentionally disguising themselves as dorks.

tbf to thought slime, that is a tactic among the alt-right. Specifically working in a bunch of absurdity into their shtick so they can always say "relax it was just a joke!" if called on poo poo. Especially since their pipeline starts with ironic bigotry and "edgy humor." Revival KKK also had a big social club aspect, so they probably were yucking it up about titles like wizard and dragon in between doing crimes.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 00:18

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

The second Klan was also a giant pyramid scheme funneling money to its leaders, which is interesting.

But there's been like three distinct Klans, none of which are very related outside the name and being racist.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 01:42

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-the-birth-of-the-30447555/

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-two-the-grifters-who-resurrected-30459723/

If you ain't a Behind the Bastards listener, these are two relevant episodes covering the creation of the KKK and its second incarnation in the earlyish 20th century. The basic format is 2-3 hours a week talking about truly atrocious people throughout history (hence a two-parter about the KKK) where the host presents facts to a friend/comedian/journalist/whatever and they also crack some (often very dark) jokes because otherwise the podcast would be mostly sobbing and cussing. Highly recommended if you like depressing and informative audio with a chocolate coating of humor.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 02:29

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Xiahou Dun posted:

If you ain't a Behind the Bastards listener, these are two relevant episodes covering the creation of the KKK and its second incarnation in the earlyish 20th century. The basic format is 2-3 hours a week talking about truly atrocious people throughout history (hence a two-parter about the KKK) where the host presents facts to a friend/comedian/journalist/whatever and they also crack some (often very dark) jokes because otherwise the podcast would be mostly sobbing and cussing. Highly recommended if you like depressing and informative audio with a chocolate coating of humor.

My favorite was Steven Seagal which they did with Internet Comedy Inventor Seanbaby and Seagal was so much worse a human being than I could imagine. Like it starts with mob ties. The podcasts really do go super deep and unpleasant.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 03:48

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

https://twitter.com/open_sketchbook/status/1435459534152257540

I don't know if this really counts as industry news per se unless we're talking the defense industry, but there's an article up on some Australian military theory website that talks about using RPGs as teaching/training tools and it's kind of wild to see them namedrop the Forge, talk about the Fate fractal, and mention games like Grey Ranks, Blackout, and Patrol. https://theforge.defence.gov.au/wargaming/using-rpgs-build-intellectual-edge

# ? Sep 8, 2021 06:07

Nea: Feb 28, 2014; Funny Little Guy Aficionado.

wow! That sucks. I mean it's cool that a variety of game systems are getting looked at but if i found out the military was using a game i worked on to train people i'd throw up and probably have a breakdown

# ? Sep 8, 2021 07:01

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Froghammer posted:

I mean, let's get in the weeds here.

Central to fascism is the idea that things used to be better than they are. When you apply that logic to art, then the only art that fascists like are pieces of art that reference other pieces of art that they like.

OK, what used to be better ? I used to be able to get a Microgame from Metagaming for $2.95 (in 1979) with a 24-32 page rulebook, map, and counters I had to cut out myself with scissors. RPG books were scarce; Traveller was 5x8" books for $5-ish. What can I get today ? I'd lik the cheap sci-fi wargames, but a Kickstarter Zine is a 32-page RPG book for $10-12. Wargamers lose out, but RPGers are ahead in the current market in terms of opportunities. Those zines can be standalone games, adventures, or supplements. The modern gamer has a lot of choice for the "cheap" bracket, mostly self-published on KS or itch.io.

Suck it fascists.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 07:08

zachol: Feb 13, 2009; Once per turn, you can Tribute 1 WATER monster you control (except this card) to Special Summon 1 WATER monster from your hand. The monster Special Summoned by this effect is destroyed if "Raging Eria" is removed from your side of the field.

Kai Tave posted:

I don't know if this really counts as industry news per se unless we're talking the defense industry, but there's an article up on some Australian military theory website that talks about using RPGs as teaching/training tools and it's kind of wild to see them namedrop the Forge, talk about the Fate fractal, and mention games like Grey Ranks, Blackout, and Patrol. https://theforge.defence.gov.au/wargaming/using-rpgs-build-intellectual-edge

I mean if they're using Grey Ranks, I'm assuming that's for working through issues about ethics and stuff? Like I don't think it's going to help in terms of literal tactics and engagement. If it's ultimately for soldiers' mental health that seems like a complicated situation.
Not that I'm criticizing anyone for having a reaction of "the military is using my work for anything at all, that makes me uncomfortable," that's totally understandable, but from the outside it feels different than using a literal wargame for planning tactics, like the best way to clear a room or whatever.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 07:15

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

zachol posted:

I mean if they're using Grey Ranks, I'm assuming that's for working through issues about ethics and stuff? Like I don't think it's going to help in terms of literal tactics and engagement. If it's ultimately for soldiers' mental health that seems like a complicated situation.
Not that I'm criticizing anyone for having a reaction of "the military is using my work for anything at all, that makes me uncomfortable," that's totally understandable, but from the outside it feels different than using a literal wargame for planning tactics, like the best way to clear a room or whatever.

Yeah a lot of the games on the list are definitely not something I would characterize as pro-military glorification, I mean Patrol is on the list and, uh, it's definitely not a game about how awesome and badass the Vietnam War was by any stretch. Per the article:

quote:

RPGs can teach, safely, about the consequences of actions on other people and populations through the exploration of identity lenses like ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or nationality. For the military, when interactions with foreign nationals can have profound consequences (Bowman 2010), the low cost of designing and running RPGs can have immeasurable benefit.

Through the characterisation process within RPGs, military players can, with some relative safety, explore their own levels self-awareness and practice social interactions that might be new or difficult for them. Through a deliberate process of characterisation using the typologies modelled in Figure 3 below, military players can explore decision-making frameworks in fictional scenarios.

Now do I actually trust the military to somehow become less lovely through the power of elfgames, gently caress no I don't and I'm sure nobody else does either, but at the very least the framing is less "here's how we can teach our future warfighters to fight wars better" and more like "actually there's a lot of stuff besides just fighting that we could be exploring through games."

# ? Sep 8, 2021 07:23

Terrible Opinions: Oct 18, 2013

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

okay, fair. I got that information from Thought Slime, who used it as one of many examples of far right groups intentionally disguising themselves as dorks.

Oh yeah it absolutely is a thing that the alt right groups that aren't natively huge dorks also do for camouflage or to to recruit. It's just that a lot of them are just huge dorks to begin with. Also tbf most people talking about the Klan aren't talking about paramilitaries in the 1800s they're talking about domestic terrorists in the 1900s which are the second and third clans a lot more relevant to Thought Slime's audience.

I just think it bears remembering that for all the nazi posturing about western culture the only media Hitler consumed were cartoons and American Western pulp novels and their German knock offs.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 07:45

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Nea posted:

wow! That sucks. I mean it's cool that a variety of game systems are getting looked at but if i found out the military was using a game i worked on to train people i'd throw up and probably have a breakdown

The silver lining is that it's time to release a "professional edition" that's $600 more, comes with three extra pages, and requires the purchase of an annual site license.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 11:12

Vox Valentine: May 31, 2013; Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Patrol 2.0: Now VTOL Capable! $900

# ? Sep 8, 2021 12:36

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Hostile V posted:

Patrol 2.0: Now VTOL Capable! $900

Erika actually is working on a 2nd edition of Patrol, funnily enough, one which is even more blatantly about the psychological tolls and traumas of war because some people kept trying to play the first one like a normal military RPG.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 13:19

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Kai Tave posted:

Yeah a lot of the games on the list are definitely not something I would characterize as pro-military glorification, I mean Patrol is on the list and, uh, it's definitely not a game about how awesome and badass the Vietnam War was by any stretch. Per the article:

Now do I actually trust the military to somehow become less lovely through the power of elfgames, gently caress no I don't and I'm sure nobody else does either, but at the very least the framing is less "here's how we can teach our future warfighters to fight wars better" and more like "actually there's a lot of stuff besides just fighting that we could be exploring through games."

Most military wargames are a lot closer to elfgames than commercial wargames because to the military, they're thought exercises, it's not really important to come up with systems to master. It's not like, say, trying to come up with a fairly closely balanced game like, say, Empire of the Sun or Paths of Glory, or even coming up with a detailed model like Pacific War, they're just trying to get people used to abstract thinking about problems.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 13:32

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Terrible Opinions posted:

This is an after the fact justification by the revival clan. The original terrorist organization spawned out of Confederate soldiers was completely earnest. These were also men who constantly talked about how Chevalier blood flowed through their veins during the war and that the Yankees were reincarnations of Puritan witch hunters. So also reactionary shitheels comparing their opposition to puritans has been a thing since literally the moment the Puritans lost the English Civil war.

Technically the Puritans won the English Civil Wars. The Parliamentarian forces were largely puritans. They just lost the peace after Cromwell died.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 13:56

Terrible Opinions: Oct 18, 2013

forkboy84 posted:

Technically the Puritans won the English Civil Wars. The Parliamentarian forces were largely puritans. They just lost the peace after Cromwell died.

If you divide it in two like that yes, I was just counting their occupation period as the same war. Though a won war followed by governmental collapse is also a fair scoreboard.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 14:07

Notahippie: Feb 4, 2003; Kids, it's not cool to have Shane MacGowan teeth

Mr.Misfit posted:

I find this highly fascinating, and if I may ask,
is the immediate logic here that: "someone who follows the basic logic that you can only recognize something as worthy if its referential"
necessarily fascist or is it something like one of the pillars of authoritarian thought?
Basically reactionary ideologies require this thinking, whether �ts fascist nor not? Or is this mindset always fascist?

To me the key issue is the last clause - "something is only worthy if..." I'm of the opinion that once you're defining worth as attached to only very narrow and specific tests the thinking may not necessarily be fascist exactly but it's certainly authoritarian and the starting point for othering.

Of course you can take that too far - especially when considering art, games, and literature there's some aesthetic discussions you can have and I think you can have a good debate about whether some games (e.g. F.A.T.A.L.) are "worthless" or not. But I think if you have a one-step rule that defines whether something has worth or not then it's at least a first step on the road to fascist thinking if not inherently fascist.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 14:16

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

I think what you're describing aligns with binary thinking, which is a concept that's extremely on-brand with fascism.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 14:23

Der Waffle Mous: Nov 27, 2009; In the grim future, there is only commerce.

My town library mainly gets its books through donations so they have are a pair of fairly large, serious looking CYOA books on Infantry and Tank Squad Tactics.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 14:53

Cessna: Feb 20, 2013; KHABAHBLOOOM

Kai Tave posted:

Now do I actually trust the military to somehow become less lovely through the power of elfgames, gently caress no I don't and I'm sure nobody else does either, but at the very least the framing is less "here's how we can teach our future warfighters to fight wars better" and more like "actually there's a lot of stuff besides just fighting that we could be exploring through games."

RPGs came from wargaming. Commercial wargames, which are themselves an outgrowth of old military wargames and map exercises.

The military regularly does training operations which are, at their core, giant LARPs.

It should surprise no one that the military uses RPGs as a training tool.

Panzeh posted:

Most military wargames are a lot closer to elfgames than commercial wargames because to the military, they're thought exercises, it's not really important to come up with systems to master. It's not like, say, trying to come up with a fairly closely balanced game like, say, Empire of the Sun or Paths of Glory, or even coming up with a detailed model like Pacific War, they're just trying to get people used to abstract thinking about problems.

Very much this.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 15:03

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Mr.Misfit posted:

I find this highly fascinating, and if I may ask,
is the immediate logic here that: "someone who follows the basic logic that you can only recognize something as worthy if its referential"
necessarily fascist or is it something like one of the pillars of authoritarian thought?
Basically reactionary ideologies require this thinking, whether �ts fascist nor not? Or is this mindset always fascist?

I can't speak for Froghammer, but it's important to keep your eye on the ball: fascism is an economic system, not a mindset. I don't think we're examining a pillar of ur-fascism, much less a personality type or something fundamental in human nature. It's very specific to the postwar American context.

These people are overwhelmingly working and middle-class white men, and for decades, all mass culture has treated them as the default type of human. (And you can add straight, Christian, able-bodied, native-born, and other normative identifiers to that list.) They've spent their lives swaddled by it, and by federal policies designed to make them the center of the universe (e.g. federal housing loans and suburbanization) while also atomizing them away from being a part of something larger than themselves. They're used to every narrative that exists being told from a perspective that they can immediately identify with, all of the time.

As a consequence, they perceive simple difference as a threat, especially when an increase in diversity is happening at the same time that a lot of them are downwardly mobile. This is how you get a situation where making a black woman the protagonist of a video game is perceived as a calculated attack. It's honestly not so much fascist as it is purely reactionary--just endlessly screeching in rage at any perception that a privilege they enjoy is being taken away.

This, by the way, is how you get OSR grognards who are frankly too old to be identified with the alt-Right, don't fit any of the stereotypes, but are ridiculously reactionary where their hobby is concerned. If something was acceptable for them to enjoy in 1980, the idea that it's not okay now is like being deprived of a civil right.

(This kind of thinking is also why reactionaries construct these bizarre fantasies where Antifa Supersoldiers seize power and make it illegal for white people to vote, or force everyone to be gay, or whatever. And it's why they mark political victories and losses in the form of vague culture-war stuff.)

So anyway, when people with these reactionary attitudes are banished to the fringes, making art only for themselves and each other, it can't be anything other than endlessly indulgent, self-referential kitsch or desperate attempts to court controversy.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 16:40

grassy gnoll: Aug 27, 2006; The pawsting business is tough work.

Der Waffle Mous posted:

My town library mainly gets its books through donations so they have are a pair of fairly large, serious looking CYOA books on Infantry and Tank Squad Tactics.

I own those! They're pretty terrible all around, because they're just regular CYOA gotcha bullshit draped in hundreds of words more than they ever needed, and they don't teach you anything about either game systems or the tactical scenarios they're trying to illustrate. It is a product for dads and dads alone.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 16:54

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Gatto Grigio posted:

Reverence of the past isn't necessarily fascist, just as an archaeologist isn't, by virtue of their subject, fascist. What separates the historian's view of the past from the fascist's view of the past is critical thinking. A fascist, unlike a good historian, looks at the past uncritically and expects the world to conform to that warped, idealized view of history.

Right. Part of the key to understanding this is that fascism looks back to a "Golden Age" that didn't exist. There was functionally almost never a time when somebody wasn't rebelling against D&D's hegemony, or when women and LGBTQ players were asserting themselves against a patriarchal mindset endemic in the hobby, the amount of time Gygax held the reins of authority was actually very short (like a few years), etc.

They look back to some ideal in which outcast duders with mighty thews and submissive women alone played the hobby to the approving smiles of the Howards' ghost or whatever, it's not consistent, but what matters is that they held authority over the little corner of the world. It doesn't matter that was never their authority, but the authority of a weird little publishing company just trying to turn a dollar, who put sexy women sitting at the feet of baddies because it sold to fourteen-year old cis boys (or their artists were horny, whatever). They want to pretend they were part of something bigger that 99.9% of them never got anywhere near touching, to look back to a company they believe catered to them before a feeemale ruined it all, etc.

And most of that is utter bullshit. Like, for example, the notion that D&D was anti-Christian edgy outsider art belies the fact that clerics exist and are very much a product of Gygax's faith as a Jehovah's Witness. Yes, it turns out you didn't have to look for a Christian TRPG to laugh at, it's calling from inside the house! And yet they rant and rave over the Satanic Panic while Allan plays a paladin which is definitely not inspired by the Catholic allegory Three Hearts and Three Lions. The whole notion of it being some being rebellion is actively false, since a lot of TRPGs came from wargaming which loathed the '60s-'70s hippie counterculture (and vice versa, there's at least one instance of protest against a wargaming club), and it's only through shared love of Tolkien that you started getting blending (ironic, because Tolkien is very much also fundamentally Catholic fiction, but the pastoral view of hobbit life meshed there).

I could probably pick away at their view of D&D for a book's length (and maybe I will, sometime) but it's just such amazing ex post facto bullshit that it boggles the mind, and that's very similar to a fascist mindset. Mind, I'd characterize it as fundamentalist, since that view doesn't require fascism, but it does line up neatly with people already inclined to view the world through a fascist lens.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 17:57

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Froghammer posted:

I mean, the mindset that "Art X used to be good until that pesky group Y started meddling with it, then it started all going downhill" is pretty fashy, so kind of? A person thinking that art is static and perfect and can only be deviated can absolutely be weaponized by bad actors.

I think if you're for instance saying "This TV show was good until they changed directors in season 5, and then it sucked, because that director wasn't good," that's a completely legitimate opinion to have (though it would behoove you to not see it as an immutable fact of the universe).

Now if you're saying "and then it sucked, because that director was another goddamn (group) and it just goes to show you blah blah :umberto:

" then yeah you are going in the wrong direction, cognitively.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 18:38

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Bunch of indies are pissed off at the end of this Dicebreaker interview with Magpie Games` Mark Diaz Truman: (bolding mine)

quote:

Recently, smaller Kickstarter projects have been adding an increased pay stretch goal for contributors and partners in lieu of expanded content or additional features. The trend can offset the difficulty and danger in predicting a project�s popularity, while assuring everyone involved earns a commensurate cut. Asked why Magpie hadn�t done something similar for its several contributing writers and artists, Diaz Truman said the idea just doesn�t fit Magpie�s business model.

�We are talking with [the contributors] about what would be the right way to honour their contributions. But again, we will never tie that to a stretch goal because that's something we would do regardless of how successful the project was,� he said. �If that's the model that people are using, awesome, that's great. But labour justice is so central to our work that we think it's a little weird for us to proclaim that we're doing this thing when we see it as something we try to shoot for every single day.�

Dicebreaker reached out to several contributors for comment regarding pay rates for their work, their thoughts on increased compensation and whether or not Magpie was open to those conversations. None wanted to comment on the record for this article, but contributing designer Daniel Kwan did provide a statement on behalf of the group.

�We have been talking with Magpie Games about several of the issues you addressed with your questions, and we feel like this conversation is going in a positive direction. This campaign for Avatar Legends has been an unprecedented success so far and we�re excited to see how it unfolds,� he said.

It's the concern for labor justice that is why they don't have profit-sharing with their employees built into the campaign. :rolleyes:

Here's a thread with some background on the practice he's dismissing:
https://twitter.com/sawdustbear/status/1435641905832869891

# ? Sep 8, 2021 19:53

Serf: May 5, 2011

I'm really late to the list discourse, but lol at Rob Schwalb managing to get put on that part of the list when he's a pretty standard liberal who wrote an entire joke adventure about fighting a cult of MRAs. Another hearty lol at Kevin Crawford being listed as apolitical. Just because he never talks about his politics doesn't mean they don't make their way into his games.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 20:20

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Bunch of indies are pissed off at the end of this Dicebreaker interview with Magpie Games` Mark Diaz Truman: (bolding mine)

It's the concern for labor justice that is why they don't have profit-sharing with their employees built into the campaign.

Here's a thread with some background on the practice he's dismissing:
https://twitter.com/sawdustbear/status/1435641905832869891

Do we know what their typical rate is? I seem to recall hearing they pay "pretty okay" (for a TTRPG publisher). Regardless, I feel like $8.5 mil or whatever would reasonably have room for bonuses on behalf of the writers and artists who are actually making the product.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 20:38

Dexo: Aug 15, 2009; A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

If the contributors are in a position where they are negotiating more money with Magpie and Magpie does increase their payout commiserate with the absurd funding then whatever.
On its face I don't have much of a problem with not explicitly stating on a kickstarter that contributes get paid more(despite prefering it as stated previously). It just depends on what happens now, with the talks between Magpie and the people working on the books.

That's a very mealy-mouthed statement in an interview. I'm curious to see what comes of this all since the contributors are asking for more money. Or if any of those deals with writers and designers have any profit sharing on them at all.

Or more likely maybe they could be screwing everyone over and taking all the money for themselves.

Regardless the financials on poo poo like this would be facinating to see.

I wonder like how much the deal with Viacom was and what like % they get on everything, obviously what the rate is for contributors etc etc.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 20:49

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

It's less that I have an issue with them not having that per se, it's that when asked they're claiming somehow that's counter to labor justice, which is laughable, and sounds like the rationalization of someone who's trying to pull a fast one.

# ? Sep 8, 2021 21:11

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:49

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

It's "lol no but here's some words to make you go away."

# ? Sep 8, 2021 21:22

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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