The Wrestling Documentaries Thread: Propoganda and Canadian Journalism

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DEAR RICHARD: Feb 5, 2009; IT'S TIME FOR MY TOOLS

That DICK! posted:

anyone else find it weird how people write off Scott hall being roofied. I dunno, not giving him a pass, but it�s weird people are putting him in the same tier as flair when he was apparently out cold for most of the trip, stirred to physically assault the flight attendant within reaching distance then passed out again. Is it a distinction without importance? I am genuinely asking

he 100% shouldn�t have been put on the road. it�s almost like he was set up to fail, you know?

hall is a tough one.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 15:25

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 06:29

That DICK!: Sep 28, 2010

I guess that�s what I see too, JR frames it as Scott hall �not being ready� to come back, when he was a known addict getting drugged on party planes with infinity booze and 7 hours on a tarmac. What chance did the guy have

# ? Sep 18, 2021 15:34

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

one interesting thing from meltzer on the episode is that he doesn't think vince was actually on the plane and it was just JR and a couple of road agents, including michael hayes, in "charge" of the plane

# ? Sep 18, 2021 16:59

Beer_Suitcase: May 3, 2005; Verily, the whip is ghost riding.

Nick Jr. Face posted:

https://twitter.com/BasilCabana/status/1438685757716238341?s=19
https://twitter.com/NVRBEENONVOGUE/status/1438793013959041026?s=19

Teddy Long has a story too

https://twitter.com/OpinionDoggie/status/1439270184359919616?s=20

# ? Sep 18, 2021 17:52

Long-Time Lurker: May 20, 2021; readin'-but-not-postin'-jones

Raskolnikov38 posted:

one interesting thing from meltzer on the episode is that he doesn't think vince was actually on the plane and it was just JR and a couple of road agents, including michael hayes, in "charge" of the plane

... what? Did he elaborate on this wild conspiracy theory? Because it's pretty loving strange that this is his take on the episode out of all the things it showed.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 17:56

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

I mean it wasn�t the only thing he said, I just thought it shed light on the question of �why did JR alone have to handle the plane of children�

# ? Sep 18, 2021 17:59

That DICK!: Sep 28, 2010

My friend the answer should be obvious to you, that the wwe has had so many hosed up hellplanes that the concussed aging drug addicts may actually be unreliable narrators, confusing it with another hellplane, for instance the one where vince attacked his employee the Olympic gold medalist who would go on to become the biggest drug addict of all time. Get your poo poo together Kurt!

# ? Sep 18, 2021 18:01

Cavauro: Jan 9, 2008

Long-Time Lurker posted:

... what? Did he elaborate on this wild conspiracy theory? Because it's pretty loving strange that this is his take on the episode out of all the things it showed.

i'll tell you what's strange

# ? Sep 18, 2021 18:14

Cavauro: Jan 9, 2008

I forgot

# ? Sep 18, 2021 18:28

davidbix: Jun 14, 2016; Wow, Bix. First K.Rool, then Steve and now SEPHIROTH? Your dream game is real!

Can someone please help me parse Jonathan Coachman's deleted tweetstorm from last night and how I ended up roped into it? Because I genuinely don't think he went into it intending to lie�I'm fairly sure I recall hearing the "I was the star witness at the civil trial in Brooklyn" anecdote before, if nothing else�and that makes it weirder. Is he confusing the Arizona case discussed in the episode with a lawsuit about another flight, one that nobody knew about? Or is it something a lot more concerning?

# ? Sep 18, 2021 18:30

Long-Time Lurker: May 20, 2021; readin'-but-not-postin'-jones

That DICK! posted:

My friend the answer should be obvious to you, that the wwe has had so many hosed up hellplanes that the concussed aging drug addicts may actually be unreliable narrators, confusing it with another hellplane, for instance the one where vince attacked his employee the Olympic gold medalist who would go on to become the biggest drug addict of all time. Get your poo poo together Kurt!

All the concussed aging wrestlers were probably similarly H-bombed on that plane too, Vince was never on any of the hellplanes.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 18:35

flashy_mcflash: Feb 7, 2011

Didn't the flight attendant say she was sitting up front of the plane with Vince and Linda? She's not an unreliable narrator.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 18:45

Stall_19: Jan 2, 2013; Prodigy of Victor von Doom

Long-Time Lurker posted:

... what? Did he elaborate on this wild conspiracy theory? Because it's pretty loving strange that this is his take on the episode out of all the things it showed.

The thing Dave said is when he originally reported the story when it was fresh in everyone's mind multiple sources who told him about this were clear that Vince was not on board the flight and that now, 19 years later people are misremembering and mixing up other incidents during flights that Vince was present for.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 18:46

Long-Time Lurker: May 20, 2021; readin'-but-not-postin'-jones

Stall_19 posted:

The thing Dave said is when he originally reported the story when it was fresh in everyone's mind multiple sources who told him about this were clear that Vince was not on board the flight and that now, 19 years later people are misremembering and mixing up other incidents during flights that Vince was present for.

I think the likelier scenario was that 19 years ago Vince told his stooges to lie about his presence there so that he'd be absolved of any responsibilities, just like how he passed those same responsibilities to JR.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 19:33

Seams: Feb 3, 2005; ROCK HARD

Uncover the flight logs bix

# ? Sep 18, 2021 19:39

CVagts: Oct 19, 2009

I'm inclined to believe the flight attendant if she said Vince was on that plane. I forget, did anyone else on the episode outright say that Vince was there?

# ? Sep 18, 2021 19:41

Critical: Aug 23, 2007

It seems a lot of people conflate the flight where Vince kept trying to take down Angle with the plane ride from hell so that might be where the confusion is?

i'm glad that vince is now too busy transporting gimmick hammers in his private jet to try and assault his wrestlers in midair

# ? Sep 18, 2021 19:44

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

so rewatching, terri and the flight attendant say vince and linda were up front. and then here's the WONs from the two weeks following that either state or imply vince wasn't there:

5/13/02 WON posted:

There were numerous problems on the flight back from England's Insurrextion PPV, most not even related to Hall. Several believe it is due to Vince not making the trip and wrestlers believing they weren't going to get in trouble because of late, discipline has been not taken seriously because of everything Hall has been allowed to get away with.

Among the incidents, and while incidents on overseas flights involving wrestlers are not uncommon, the number on this flight made it just about the worst flight anyone could remember.

Dustin Runnels was on the p.a. singing love songs to his ex-wife (Terri Boatright), who was terribly uncomfortable. She asked him to stop and he didn't. Jim Ross had to sit Runnels down.

There was also heat on agents Gerald Brisco and Arn Anderson for how out of hand things got, and the heat on Anderson and Michael Hayes was strong, particularly Anderson because as an agent, it's his job to keep the boys from getting out of control and he was more like one of the boys. Flair started to get wild, but eventually calmed down when Ross told him to.

Curt Hennig was spraying people with shaving cream, and kept egging Brock Lesnar into fighting (the two know each other from Minnesota and when Hennig was between gigs and before Lesnar started with OVW, they trained together at Brad Rheingans' camp) . Lesnar didn't know how to handle it as a newcomer not wanting to get in trouble, but reportedly was told that if he didn't stand up to him now, he'd get a bad rep in the business. Lesnar took Hennig down in the aisle way, actually more than once, until David Finlay told Lesnar to stop. Hennig tried to get him to do it again, but Paul Heyman told Lesnar to ignore it. Another report said that Lesnar first grabbed him and bulldozed him against the door and people on the plane freaked because they were afraid the door would open.

Michael Seitz (Hayes) was out of control, got into either a serious or a not serious brawl with Bradshaw and started cutting wrestling promos on everyone. Hayes tried to halfway pick a fight with Hall, although it was also said Hall had that one coming by his own behavior, as well as others, and was generally really nasty. When he finally fell asleep, someone, believed to be Sean Waltman, cut lots of his hair off. The next day at Raw, his mullet was pinned to the wall backstage as a trophy by Waltman. When he woke up on the plane and found his hair cut off, he started wanting to fight several people.

Everyone is waiting to see how Vince handles all these various situations, although he did immediately make an example out of Hall. Hayes really got chewed out by Vince, Stephanie and Ross at Raw. There was a feeling that as a writer and an agent, he should be leading by example. Undertaker was said to be furious at how out of hand this got.

This has turned into something even worse than WCW as ex-WCWers couldn't even compare with with their European trips.

5/20/02 WON posted:

Based on phone calls, fax messages and e-mails to the Observer as of Tuesday, 5/14.

Curt Hennig was the second WWE star fired stemming from the flight from London detailed in last week's issue.

Besides spraying the shaving cream in people's hair (one of whom was Big Show), which would have been overlooked, he goaded Brock Lesnar into their skirmish, which put people in danger. Even after Lesnar pinned him down in the aisle, Hennig kept wanting more, and people were calming Lesnar down and telling him it wasn't worth it at that point. Fighting, or actually amateur wrestling roughly on an airplane is dangerous enough, but the fact they were fighting near the emergency exit is even worse.

The stories about them almost going through the door were blown up out of proportion, because the force it takes to open such a door is incredible. Then again, Lesnar is also incredibly strong.

There was tremendous heat on both Arn Anderson and Michael Hayes, since both were agents and their jobs are to keep the wrestlers under control, and neither was in any condition to do so. Austin was openly angry at Raw that he felt Hayes, who wasn't popular with a lot of the wrestlers going into this situation, was both unprofessional and an embarrassment. Anderson was chastised at television by both Jim Ross and Vince.

Dustin Runnels, who was said to be on the bubble as far as keeping his job after all the problems, is the only person who seems to still not be out of hot water as far as staying.

Flair was causing the Flair scene, which is not unusual as he is a partier and it isn't above him to get almost naked on a non-commercial flight, but he doesn't cause danger to anyone, just causes a scene and gets attention. He's been doing it for years. When he was told by Ross to stop, he did.

When Hayes started a similar scene, since he's management, it was considered very unprofessional. Agents are supposed to keep behavior in these situations in line, not contribute to the problems. Based on the story you want to believe, before he got his mullet cut off, Hayes either passed out after a fight with John Layfield (Bradshaw), or was knocked out by him. There was definitely a small skirmish between the two that Bradshaw got the better of. There's something very bad about wrestlers fighting agents (since they are management), even if the agents may be embarrassing themselves, or are former wrestlers (Hayes, 43, is only a few years older than Bradshaw, even though people wouldn't think that since their peak eras are nearly 20 years apart).

Nevertheless, I've heard no indication Bradshaw is in trouble nor anyone even saying he was in the wrong in the situation.

Fact that there isn't more heat on X-Pac for cutting Hayes' hair tells you just how much heat Hayes had and how prevalent the "he deserved it" sentiment is. But that's the real world of wrestling that most people don't know about, particularly when you've got a foreign tour that was described as a party from day one that reminded veterans of the old days of the business. Football teams have had similar problems on chartered flights, although maybe not as many incidents on a single flight and not to the same degree. Many teams impose a limit on drinks and Jim Ross had talked about WWE not allowing alcohol on future charter flights for this reason. Granted, pro wrestling isn't a normal job, but if an employee cut off the hair of his supervisor while on a business trip in a real job, I don't think it would just be considered boys being boys on the road. Then again, if this happened on a football charter, I also don't think it would cost the player his job if the player was a star.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 19:52

Long-Time Lurker: May 20, 2021; readin'-but-not-postin'-jones

Sure does read like Meltzer's sources from back in the day were WWE's PR people trying their damnedest to downplay the incident.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 20:06

medchem: Oct 11, 2012

I really hope AEW doesn't hire Flair or bring him in for anything, but I feel like they'll do it and justify it with "well, we already brought in X, Y, Z lovely person, so damned if you do/don't with Flair".

As for JR, man he looked just as culpable as any of the others with his "boys will be boys", "maybe we should have done more", "hope I never have to talk about this again" stuff.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 20:10

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Seams posted:

Uncover the flight logs bix

# ? Sep 18, 2021 20:10

FUCKFACE MORON: Apr 23, 2010; by sebmojo

CVagts posted:

I'm inclined to believe the flight attendant if she said Vince was on that plane. I forget, did anyone else on the episode outright say that Vince was there?

I'm like 99% sure that JR said that Vince was there, specifically mentioning that Vince was the one who ordered him to see what the hell was going on back there. Although I might be misremembering and it was the flight attendant who asked JR to come to the back.

# ? Sep 18, 2021 20:22

Hedgehog Pie: May 19, 2012; Total fuckin' silence.

I'd actually never heard of Vince being on the flight before, but can definitely buy that of course WWE folks would say that he wasn't in order to protect themselves. It did seem a bit weird that Linda was there (didn't Hayes almost take a piss on her because he thought he was in the bathroom? they didn't mention that on the doc) but Vince wasn't.

I'm guessing Taker wasn't there either? Because if Vince wasn't going to tell them to knock it off - and in truth I feel like he would encourage it more than anything - then Taker probably would if he was tired, and they would have listened to him.

Hedgehog Pie fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Sep 18, 2021

# ? Sep 18, 2021 20:25

Davros1: Jul 19, 2007; You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible

Those not mentioned in the ep but who wrestled at (or were on) the Insurrection PPV were:

Steve Austin
Triple H
Undertaker
Booker T
Eddie Guerrero
Stevie Richards
Trish Stratus
Jazz
Jacqueline
Molly Holly
William Regal
Crash Holly
Matt Hardy
Jeff Hardy
Paul Heyman
Shawn Stasiak
Spike Dudley
Jerry Lawler
Lillian Garcia
Big Show
Earl Hebner
The Fink

So my guess is they were either staying behind for a few more house shows, or they were on a different charter plane

# ? Sep 18, 2021 20:37

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

terri mentions heyman being on the plane

# ? Sep 18, 2021 21:30

TheKingslayer: Sep 3, 2008

medchem posted:

I really hope AEW doesn't hire Flair or bring him in for anything, but I feel like they'll do it and justify it with "well, we already brought in X, Y, Z lovely person, so damned if you do/don't with Flair".

What are you even talking about?

# ? Sep 19, 2021 07:47

AndyElusive: Jan 7, 2007

Ugh, that episode of DSotR. Holy gently caress.

El Gallinero Gros posted:

The hair "joke" Tommy made was not well received by my GF.

My GF lost her mind when Dreamer said that poo poo.

# ? Sep 20, 2021 01:00

EL BROMANCE: Jun 10, 2006; COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬

Dreamers apology, of course, included the line �sorry if you were offended�.

# ? Sep 20, 2021 02:28

STAC Goat: Mar 12, 2008; Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I mean, it didn't include "if". It was "to those I offended". I don't think it makes sense to get hung up on "offended" when the "if" is the key word that those apologies use to project the blame on those offended. Dreamer's apology did seem to at least accept responsibility and acknowledge what he did wrong. At least on its face.

I don't know if his apology is good enough, or if it means anything without some kind of proof of action. Personally I wish more of these apologies would be made in person. Its a lot easier to by cynical of a written statement and to judge if someone seems to be speaking sincerely if you can see them. But its all a crapshoot especially when dealing with carnies, actors, and politicians who are all experienced in selling lies.

# ? Sep 20, 2021 02:39

Mulaney Power Move: Dec 30, 2004

i cant believe the guy who said he likes to pay midgets to gently caress fat prostitutes while he watches and likes stripping naked and shoving his cock on his hotel roommates has such problematic viewpoints

# ? Sep 20, 2021 02:41

RBX: Jan 2, 2011

I have never in life cared about "celebrity" apologies, just don't do stupid poo poo again and prove your "change". That's all that matters. The fact that we're in a time where we know all these apologies are just part of the process and they aren't sincere baffles me. Just skip the whole step.

# ? Sep 20, 2021 02:55

EL BROMANCE: Jun 10, 2006; COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬

STAC Goat posted:

I mean, it didn't include "if". It was "to those I offended". I don't think it makes sense to get hung up on "offended" when the "if" is the key word that those apologies use to project the blame on those offended.

Ah doh, I guess my brain added the �if� based on how many times people trot that line out. Not as bad as I first thought then, my bad.

# ? Sep 20, 2021 03:16

Wezlar: May 13, 2005

# ? Sep 20, 2021 03:34

Long-Time Lurker: May 20, 2021; readin'-but-not-postin'-jones

He said it wasn't his "intention" to offend or hurt anyone in the apology, I thought that was pretty telling of how sincere it was.

# ? Sep 20, 2021 05:35

IGgy IGsen: Apr 11, 2013; "If I lose I will set myself on fire."

No Tommy Dreamer apology would come across as sincere after he said "Everything offends people these days, look at my ponytails, same as sexaul asault"

# ? Sep 20, 2021 07:00

Grem: Mar 29, 2004; Can't post for 18 days!

I'd like to see Brodie Lee have an episode of DSotR. I know there's no backstage or private life bullshit for Lee involved, but it'd be a totally different kind of episode. I guess the closest would be the Nick Gage episode. His sudden death was a huge event that united an entire company. It'd be a nice season finale or something. Cap off a season of "wrestlers are literally the worst" with "actually some are really awesome in how much they love each other."

# ? Sep 20, 2021 09:22

IGgy IGsen: Apr 11, 2013; "If I lose I will set myself on fire."

Grem posted:

I'd like to see Brodie Lee have an episode of DSotR. I know there's no backstage or private life bullshit for Lee involved, but it'd be a totally different kind of episode. I guess the closest would be the Nick Gage episode. His sudden death was a huge event that united an entire company. It'd be a nice season finale or something. Cap off a season of "wrestlers are literally the worst" with "actually some are really awesome in how much they love each other."

You had me scared and I googled Nick Gage to make sure he's not dead. Thankfully he's still kickin'. I mean, he died that one time, but he got better.
You might have confused that with the Newjack episode, I think

# ? Sep 20, 2021 09:27

History Comes Inside!: Nov 20, 2004

IGgy IGsen posted:

You had me scared and I googled Nick Gage to make sure he's not dead. Thankfully he's still kickin'. I mean, he died that one time, but he got better.
You might have confused that with the Newjack episode, I think

I think you�re misreading the post. Also New Jack died after his episode aired, too.

# ? Sep 20, 2021 12:22

achillesforever6: Apr 23, 2012; psst you wanna do a communism?

Long-Time Lurker posted:

He said it wasn't his "intention" to offend or hurt anyone in the apology, I thought that was pretty telling of how sincere it was.

Shame at the names liking that post too

# ? Sep 20, 2021 20:11

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 06:29

Pylons: Mar 16, 2009

https://twitter.com/DarkSideOfRing/status/1439990547792465928

# ? Sep 20, 2021 21:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > The Wrestling Documentaries Thread: Propoganda and Canadian Journalism

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