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Pablo Bluth posted:1st gen Threadripper has aged badly given the core counts weren't actually that high. Later ones where there are 32 or 64 core options should remain interesting for longer. 32C or 64C HEDT options likely never sold huge volume in the first place. The analogous thing would be the Intel 6950X or similar - which remained quite expensive for a long time because a $1700 processor never sold that many units, even though they are handily beaten in performance by a 5900X. (I see a few 6950X on ebay for $315 now - which is better than it used to be, used to be $700 even after the 3950X and eventually 5900X came out. $700 for something that's 3700X tier performance and has been overclocked in someone's system for the last 5 years wasn't really justifiable on the merits, and even $300 is not really attractive (especially considering the motherboards/etc). I actually prefer the unlocked Xeon processors in this respect - yeah they have a lot of power-on hours but it'll all be at bone-stock clocks in a server somewhere.) Furthermore, the way AMD split the socket across two incompatible chipsets means 2990WX and 3990X don't actually compete directly, it's like the 7700K vs 8600K, they are different chipsets and despite the fact that the 8600K is the better processor, the 7700K is often priced higher because they can't be interchanged. This tends to further fragment the market and drive second-hand prices higher, just like on Intel. AMD pretty deliberately engineered it so that you would be unable to do the "cheap server on a HEDT socket" and there's no real reason to believe the HEDT themselves will ever come down enough to be worthwhile. Like the Intel 6950X, by the time prices come down sufficiently on the top-tier chips, you will probably be better off with a Ryzen 7950X or or 8950X outside those actual HEDT use-cases. If you are specifically fishing for PCIe lanes or those other HEDT-specific needs, it's likely the (usually cheaper) Epycs will suit your use-case better, and supply of those will likely be better although AMD still is making diligent attempts to kill second-hand resale with the "lock to brand" and "lock to specific motherboard" kill-bits on Epyc. (Intel clamped down with Broadwell and Skylake too but AMD really raced ahead with stuff like the processor kill-bits, and Intel remains better in some ways like still allowing RDIMM on LGA3647-HEDT and cross compatibility with Xeon-W on LGA2066-HEDT, etc) From a corporate perspective, AMD would always rather that you buy a new processor from them (consumer or server) rather than being able to re-use an older chip. Selling new chips makes them money, so surplus sales are them losing money. In short: that era has more or less died with Z97 and X99. And it wasn’t accidental, it was a murder. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Sep 29, 2021 |
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Sep 29, 2021 17:00
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Rookie question here... I've found two prebuilt desktops, one with a AMD Ryzen 7 5800x and the other with an Intel i7-11700kf. Is there an upgrade path for the AM4 socket if I decide I need more CPU power 3 years down the line? And from what I can tell, that Intel socket is pretty much done?
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Sep 30, 2021 18:50
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Hughmoris posted:Rookie question here... Probably not. There's the 5900x if you need more cores but not more powerful cores, and there've been rumors of a Zen3+ forever but so far only rumors. In 3 years we'll be on DDR5 and you'll probably be better off getting whatever the current CPU generation is rather than paying top dollar for old hardware, as top end parts for old sockets have a history of being unreasonably expensive.
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Sep 30, 2021 18:57
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The stacked cache chips are coming and those will use AM4, but that's it. CPUs have generally not been a thing that you can upgrade without also upgrading your motherboard, and the Ryzen chips have been an exception to this. Hopefully AMD repeats this with the new socket, but yes, the current socket is on the way out, and the only upgrade on the same mobo you'll be able to find down the line will be an incremental one.
Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 00:06
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1d20 + 1d10 days after AM5 CPUs ship, ASRock will release a UEFI patch and LGA-to-PGA interposer for their B550 boards which let them run with the new chips.
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Oct 1, 2021 00:14
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have they finished the 5000 stack? it was late when the 3300X came out compared to the 3600 but this is all new to me, lol.
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Oct 1, 2021 01:48
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We're sort of still expecting "Zen 3 with 3D stacked cache" by year's end, but I wouldn't really consider that part of the 5000 series stack, though they might still brand it as being part of it, like a Ryzen 5 5600XT I don't think anything else is coming down the pipe The 3100 and 3300X were, in a way, problematic because they were products of AMD trying to make use of silicon that wasn't fit for any other SKU, but since they were only cast-offs, the supply was not great and way too many people wanted them long after they ever had a chance of producing any more it seems like AMD has learned from that lesson, which is why we don't see a quad-core Zen 3 part except for the 5300G that's only sold as an OEM part, which lets AMD keep tight control of how many they need to produce
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Oct 1, 2021 02:14
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CoolCab posted:have they finished the 5000 stack? it was late when the 3300X came out compared to the 3600 but this is all new to me, lol. “noooooo they’ll come out with cheaper processors later just wait!!!” was mega copium. AMD legit got away with cranking MSRPs up to 50% in a single gen, back to almost coffee lake levels and everyone sucked their dick over it lol. (and say what you want about “but the shortages mean they’re selling everything anyway!!!” but this is just the continuation of pre-existing trends, TRX40 was a pre-pandemic product and AMD was already cranking prices massively and forcing arbitrary socket changes, etc. It’s much more about AMD feeling the lack of competition and taking advantage. I pointed this out after the Threadripper launch and predicted further big increases in Zen3 and people were very dismissive of it, because at that point the zeitgeist was still “amd is my close personal friend and not a billion dollar company who exists to make a profit”. And even as far as the shortages - quick reminder, you know who didn’t massive crank prices the last year to milk consumers during a shortage? … and in fact massively cut prices in the exact way people strenuously insisted they never would, during a shortage? almost as if… competition works and merely having AMD be on top isn’t an automatic win for consumers…) De facto I basically think they’ll cut the prices of the existing chips over the next few months after Alder Lake comes out (whether that’s rebrands or just price cuts on existing models) so the non-vcache chips become the “value products” and then AMD launches the vcache chips at the current price points or slightly higher. If Intel is offering more performance at the same price then AMD has to compete or lose marketshare. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 02:21
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Noone should pull a "You gotta hand it to them" with Intel, who was happy to charge the same, and often increase pricing, year-after-year for performance gains that became 5% or less, though. Paul, you were becoming fairly neutral, don't go back to sucking Intel's dick because Alder Lake may actually be ok.
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Oct 1, 2021 03:38
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Amd’s price increases are a lot more reasonable because they don’t have a war chest like intel, they need to stockpile while they are ahead to survive in the future.
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Oct 1, 2021 03:47
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i am very ambivalent in the abstract i'm still rocking my 3300x and i suspect tons more people would be too if they kept making em, it looks like they even managed to get some of those for sale this year in july for like only 15-20% over msrp. deadeyed, completely monotone lol. i went intel last time and i'd go again if people who understand how to trick rocks into math tell me it's better. but in part cause of that am4 socket my expectation is i'll probably upgrade to a 3600 or 5600 when they're cheap on the secondhand market after the launch of uhhhhhh am5? is that what they're calling it. in a world where i had all the options i probably would go for the intel equivalent 6c/12t option because i understand it's better than a 3600 and cheaper generally right now but the feature of a unified socket will prolly keep me on the platform for another upgrade. i will say i broadly agree with paul in that AMD are acting like the market leader again, at least in the enthusiast desktop space and some other places too. i don't know if they'll offer the same broad support for the next socket and for as long, although i hope so, if nothing else because i think it's marginally more environmentally justified and definitely better as a consumer.
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Oct 1, 2021 03:48
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Perplx posted:Amd’s price increases are a lot more reasonable because they don’t have a war chest like intel, they need to stockpile while they are ahead to survive in the future. nah
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Oct 1, 2021 04:48
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TL;DR: AMD doing to Intel what Nvidia been doing to AMD.
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Oct 1, 2021 04:49
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TL;DR of the TL;DR: capitalism is broken
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Oct 1, 2021 05:37
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:TL;DR of the TL;DR: capitalism is broken Capitalism sucks
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Oct 1, 2021 05:53
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Intel needs a healthy profit margin too because if that starts to shrink or revenue drops then that will probably trigger a stock sell off Don’t defend either company
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Oct 1, 2021 05:57
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CoolCab posted:have they finished the 5000 stack? it was late when the 3300X came out compared to the 3600 but this is all new to me, lol.
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Oct 1, 2021 08:37
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5950Xs are now  below MSRP at Microcenter: $739.99. This coulda happened a while ago -- I haven't looked in a couple months -- but I haven't heard anyone say anything about it. I don't think this means anything in particular except "consumer CPU supply is currently good".I'm not gonna hold my breath, but I'd be pretty happy if 5X00 XTs dropped and pushed that price down another $100, $150. If not, I'll just wait for the 6000 series 
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Oct 2, 2021 02:28
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orcane posted:The new APUs are the "finished stack". Is this as low as desktop wattage gets? I was expecting a lower wattage cheaper cooler non-X version of the processors.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:00
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Anyone have an idea about the actual performance hit of running virtualization-based security? I know Ryzen Master won't run with it on, but I turned it on and don't think I've seen a real hit from it. Today there was a story on PC Gamer or somewhere which then got picked up by a bunch of other outlets that Windows 11 will gimp game performance due to VBS. It feels clickbaity, but made me wonder. I don't care about Windows 11 - it looks like a regression more than an update. But out of cussedness I decided to enable the Windows 11 security features on my Windows 10 install and am wondering if I should turn VBS off again since I mostly use Windows as a gaming platform. As a point of reference, night before last I ran the 3DMark CPU benchmark (before I dusted my computer) and came out in the top 30% of rankings for the 3600X.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:08
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Like a 2-5% performance hit, ime.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:13
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It's not VBS itself, but the HVCI subfeature. It's called Memory Integrity in the Windows Security app. So far you still have control as to whether to enable it or not. If there's a driver using specific older APIs, it'll disable itself due to compatibility issues. It relies on a CPU hardware feature called MBEC (mode based execution control) on Intel and GMET (guest mode execute trap) on AMD, otherwise it has to emulate it, resulting in the performance drop. Those CPU features are only available in the newer CPUs.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:22
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https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-11-pcs-can-hobble-gaming-performance/ PC Gamer tested windows 11 with VBS on and off, with a 10700K and a 3060 Ti, and found that in some games VBS reduced performance by over 25%.
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Oct 2, 2021 04:44
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Twerk from Home posted:Is this as low as desktop wattage gets? I was expecting a lower wattage cheaper cooler non-X version of the processors. The APUs aren't intended to be particularly low-wattage. AMD's "PRO" line of SKUs are intended for professional/OEM use, but they're still rated at 65w and AMD doesn't have what Intel does where they make "T"-model CPUs specifically designed out-of-the-box to hit a 35w power limit. You can configure an AMD CPU to run at low wattage/temps, but you have to do it yourself (and all AMD CPUs are unlocked), but it's not going to be cheaper.
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Oct 2, 2021 05:12
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-11-pcs-can-hobble-gaming-performance/
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Oct 2, 2021 13:40
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Sorry noob question, if you set a negative offset in curve optimizer and just leave it there without overclocking or doing anything else, will it offer benefits by itself?
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Oct 6, 2021 22:27
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Otakufag posted:Sorry noob question, if you set a negative offset in curve optimizer and just leave it there without overclocking or doing anything else, will it offer benefits by itself? Yes. You'll reach higher all-core clocks at the same power level, and your lighter loads will consume less power. It has a small but decent impact on its own. It just takes a bit of experimentation and testing. It's not the kind of thing you can do a 30 minute stress test for and call it a day. Instability most commonly occurs at lower load levels or idle, so you want to take it slowly. What I did was adjusted the all-core offset by -5 once a day and stopped at the first signs of instability. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 6, 2021 |
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Oct 6, 2021 23:18
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Combat Pretzel posted:Computerbase for instance ran benchmarks, too, and can't even remotely replicate drops of that magnitude. I ran a bunch of comparisons when enabling every VBS feature I could on Win 10 a year and a half ago and couldn't detect more than a 2-5%, in the noise, impact in the worst case. I haven't noticed any weird symptoms since like bottlenecked games with CPU/GPU still available. The 3600 in the box has MBEC, so that helps - could also be a win 11 regression. But that PC Gamer article isn't very well written in that it presents more suspicions than fact.
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Oct 9, 2021 19:23
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https://twitter.com/videocardz/status/1446743195514179584 Could just be a bad early leak of Rembrandt, or maybe AMD is going back to their true love as a tech company: confusing numbering schemes.
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Oct 9, 2021 20:00
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AMD is saying that win11 can have performance drops on ryzens due to something loving with cache latency and also ignoring preferred cores. Cache latency being 3x worse would be horrible for games. But whatever is causing it seems pretty scattershot -- it's not happening to all hardware. So PC gamer results might be affected by that in particular and only coincidentally appear to be from HVCI.
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Oct 9, 2021 20:27
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Cygni posted:https://twitter.com/videocardz/status/1446743195514179584 This would be insanely stupid. Yeah I have a 7600X with 16 gigs of ram with a 7600XT with 16 gigs of ram.
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Oct 9, 2021 20:59
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K8.0 posted:This would be insanely stupid. Yeah I have a 7600X with 16 gigs of ram with a 7600XT with 16 gigs of ram. I suspect its like the 4000 series actually being the 3000 series but only for OEMs so they can feel special.
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Oct 9, 2021 21:43
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Rembrandt is going to be the first AM5 parts supposedly. If the naming stuff is true, maybe the V-cache AM4 parts are 6000 series, and they want to differentiate the AM5 parts, so we end up with Rembrandt launching the 7000 series despite being Zen3 based. Makes some level of sense if you have terminal Marketing Brain. We would be back to last gen APUs launching a socket (just like AM4 did with Bristol Ridge) and back to last gen APUs launching a generational series (like the 2000 and 3000 series). Love to repeat marketing and product decisions that were widely disliked!
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Oct 9, 2021 22:02
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Huh? There's going to be Zen3's for AM5? I sure hope, ECC modules won't be a red headed stepchild again with DDR5. It took ages for native DDR4-3200 ECC modules to show up.
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Oct 10, 2021 01:08
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Cygni posted:https://twitter.com/videocardz/status/1446743195514179584 90% odds this is just a typo on HP's part.
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Oct 10, 2021 01:34
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Combat Pretzel posted:Huh? There's going to be Zen3's for AM5? Yes, Zen3+ is Zen3 but with ddr5 (contrast to what people are calling Zen3D which is Zen3 with vcache on AM4). It was originally planned to be the product that led off AM5 but AMD appears to have scrubbed it except for this one remaining 4-core Zen3+/RDNA2 apu (Rembrandt). Which could be socketed, I suppose, but is more likely to just be a BGA format laptop chip at least until AM5 gets rolling in general. This generation is going to be sort of funny because Zen3 vs Alder Lake was originally a battle intended to take place on DDR5 but right now there is just no consumer appetite for buying a last gen product that requires all new memory+mobo just to have the early adopter experience, so the DDR4 variants of Zen3 and Alder Lake are suddenly much more important than they usually have been. It could be a typo but it wouldn’t be surprising to see a performance APU show up in an all-in-one either.
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Oct 10, 2021 01:50
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Paul MaudDib posted:Yes, Zen3+ is Zen3 but with ddr5 (contrast to what people are calling Zen3D which is Zen3 with vcache on AM4). It was originally planned to be the product that led off AM5 but AMD appears to have scrubbed it except for this one remaining 4-core Zen3+/RDNA2 apu (Rembrandt). Which could be socketed, I suppose, but is more likely to just be a BGA format laptop chip at least until AM5 gets rolling in general. What APU is the steam deck using? It's Zen 2 with RDNA 2, which is way more appealing for gaming than the 5700G with Zen 3 and Vega.
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Oct 10, 2021 03:29
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Steam Deck APU is called Van Gogh. A low power soldered APU, unlikely to ever be in a socket. It probably doesn’t even have a standard DDR4/DDR5 controller. Also it’s only got 2CUs with power constrained clocks, vs 8 in something like a 5700G, so I would expect the Cezanne parts to win across the board… but not in that power envelope obvi. Rembrandt is gonna be the first RDNA2 part in a socket.
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Oct 10, 2021 03:50
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Cygni posted:Steam Deck APU is called Van Gogh. A low power soldered APU, unlikely to ever be in a socket. It probably doesn’t even have a standard DDR4/DDR5 controller. Steam Deck had 8 CUs.
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Oct 10, 2021 03:55
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Cygni posted:Steam Deck APU is called Van Gogh. A low power soldered APU, unlikely to ever be in a socket. It probably doesn’t even have a standard DDR4/DDR5 controller. Van Gogh has 8 RDNA2 compute units, 4 Zen 2 cores.
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Oct 10, 2021 03:56
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