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sexpig by night posted:yea even Elidibus calls that out when he goes for an attack on G'raha in front of us, I think he does explicitly even use the 'denser' language, or maybe just more general 'made of stronger stuff'. Elidibus does this on the First, where we know that G'raha survived a rejoining. This is the Source version of G'raha stating so, which means it's not just his memories that carried over, but his soul as well.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:22
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I do kind of get Cleretic's disappointment that the lightwardens weren't the true bad guys because evil angels are a hell of a good aesthetic. Mt. Gulg and Innocence at least sated me well enough. The Amaurot dungeon's trash being partly made up of the same voidsent we've seen before is the real issue, though, since The End of Days really ought to be made of really unthinkably horrific things. I hope they design trash mobs that are as freakish as the bosses were.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:30
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I'm still annoyed that Vauthry turned sexy. I'd have gone for one of the weirder angels if he had to have a transformation.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:37
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You literally do fight a big evil light god and a shitload of angels, it's just right before the end. It's not like Hades comes out of nowhere, he's hanging out with you the whole game. This guy who you know is the founder of the Garlean empire, and one of the most powerful Ascian leaders. If you didn't think he was gonna be the final boss from the get-go, I don't know what to tell ya. Only Zenos is more obvious, and it's because you have that losing fight against him early on.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:37
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CJ posted:What if they had the Warrior of Light as the final boss of 5.0, then saved the Amourat stuff for the patches? Honestly, I've been thinking about it and it would work better in terms of 5.0 feeling more contiguous. Start from 'the final boss is the Warrior of Light' and work backwards. Sure, let's keep Amaurot, why not, we need to set up something for Endwalker to pay off. But let's put Elidibus down there first. Center the entirety of 5.0's ending on the questions of 'what is a hero, what is their duty, what happens when they fail', by instead framing Elidibus as our mirror. Keeps up the 'fight the light' theme while also introducing Amaurot. Plant a seed by confirming that Elidibus didn't conjure up the place, leave us with the question of 'so if he didn't, who did'. Build up to Emet-Selch/Hades as the 5.3 capstone, probably by emphasising his 'architect' role by focusing on both the decay of the Garlean Empire and the Exarch's work building up the Crystarium. Obviously I'm just theorising how to change up a story that isn't broken, since I'm the only one that doesn't like Shadowbringers' ending taking an even harder left than 'Heavensward ends in fighting Fantasy Pope in an ancient lab' (which I maintain is mostly not a swerve, we all knew we were gonna fight Fantasy Pope). But gently caress it, I like asking what happens if we rearrange the pieces. Pigbuster posted:I do kind of get Cleretic's disappointment that the lightwardens weren't the true bad guys because evil angels are a hell of a good aesthetic. Mt. Gulg and Innocence at least sated me well enough. The Amaurot dungeon's trash being partly made up of the same voidsent we've seen before is the real issue, though, since The End of Days really ought to be made of really unthinkably horrific things. I hope they design trash mobs that are as freakish as the bosses were. But yeah, this is the main thing. Evil angels were rad as hell, Innocence is a pretty good escalation of that, but I was hoping we'd go higher. After all, no Megaten game calls it a day after having you fight Gabriel. Dungeon Amaurot, meanwhile... Therion is neat, a lot of the others just amount to 'really, that's it', especially when the sin eaters were serving up an A-game. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 03:44
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Bruceski posted:I'm still annoyed that Vauthry turned sexy. I'd have gone for one of the weirder angels if he had to have a transformation. Somebody had to be Renaissance Archangel Michael, and he did have all the classical angel Eaters as his harem.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:45
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Cleretic posted:Honestly, I've been thinking about it and it would work better in terms of 5.0 feeling more contiguous. Start from 'the final boss is the Warrior of Light' and work backwards. I think that solution would be a disservice to both Emet-Selch's and Elidibus's stories.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:46
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Cleretic posted:Honestly, I've been thinking about it and it would work better in terms of 5.0 feeling more contiguous. Start from 'the final boss is the Warrior of Light' and work backwards. I mean you make the entire story less satisfying and more incoherent because rather than a self-contained and coherent story you rewrite everything entirely so you don't have Emet Selch around. Like this is something that I think needs to be stressed. Your idea for rewriting the game is "remove Emet Selch/minimize the amount he is in the game." Like it's pretty blunt that you began with "How do I make Emet Selch go away for as much of the story as possible" and worked backwards from there. Like seriously you are actually saying right now "Actually keep Amaurot but take away all the context and surrounding information that makes it a meaningful area." It's very obvious that your complaint isn't Amaurot but the fact that Emet Selch is there because otherwise the entire area makes no loving sense and loses all of its impact in favor of literally nothing but "I get to fight a SECOND bright glowing angel right after the first one I fought" and "Emet Selch isn't onscreen as much." You are obviously aware of your Emet Selch hatred but it feels like you're not capable of moving past it and keep repeating the same things over and over again. Which is completely ironic because that is Emet Selch's character. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 03:47
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Bruceski posted:I'm still annoyed that Vauthry turned sexy. I'd have gone for one of the weirder angels if he had to have a transformation. I was also bummed by that. It feels so spiteful to use so many "fat evil" tropes with Vauthry and then not even give the courtesy of making his cool transformation fat too. Thankfully Dulia-Chai is pretty great for chubby character representation. quote:But yeah, this is the main thing. Evil angels were rad as hell, Innocence is a pretty good escalation of that, but I was hoping we'd go higher. After all, no Megaten game calls it a day after having you fight Gabriel. Dungeon Amaurot, meanwhile... Therion is neat, a lot of the others just amount to 'really, that's it', especially when the sin eaters were serving up an A-game. Therion gives me hope. That design is frickin wild, and it's not angelic or demonic so it's clearly something very alien. I'm guessing we're gonna find out what the Noise was and that'll make it clearer what to compare these things to. Pigbuster fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 03:48
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I feel like they made Dulia-Chai so great specifically so the first example of a fat character we see isn't Vauthry.
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Oct 4, 2021 03:52
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SirSamVimes posted:I feel like they made Dulia-Chai so great specifically so the first example of a fat character we see isn't Vauthry. Yeah. Like I absolutely understand being gunshy about "fat guy evil" stuff but I feel like with Vauthry there are not a ton of visual design areas you can go to to represent "disgusting excessive consumption and idleness" which is central to Eulmore's plot. But it's clear that they are not going "fat=bad" because mamacat is the character the game loves more than almost any other. It is that Vauthry represents horrifying excess and stagnation. (Being a literal embodiment of Light.) You could maybe design him as someone incredibly gaudy (uh, moreso than he actually is) but "people starving down below while the rich rear end in a top hat feasts to excess above" is a powerful image. Like someone isn't bad because they are fat but if someone is incredibly ridiculously fat while people around him are starving that does represent a strong visual indication of greed and excess. (They probably could have done without the goofy flying away animation though because that is 100% a fat joke just being a fat joke.)
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Oct 4, 2021 03:59
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Yeah, if Vauthry was the only fat character in the entire game, it would be a lot worse than it is.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:00
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ImpAtom posted:(They probably could have done without the goofy flying away animation though because that is 100% a fat joke just being a fat joke.) That was hilarious 
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Oct 4, 2021 04:09
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I thought it made him even freakier, much like all the preceeding events in the cutscene
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Oct 4, 2021 04:16
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It also helps that there isn't a single joke or even mention of Dulia-Chai's weight. The closest the game ever comes is her murdering Chai-Nuzz with a hug and that's more a joke about her size coming with a considerable amount of strength.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:20
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ImpAtom posted:You are obviously aware of your Emet Selch hatred but it feels like you're not capable of moving past it and keep repeating the same things over and over again. Which is completely ironic because that is Emet Selch's character.  Cleretic hates Emet-Selch because it's like looking in a mirror
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Oct 4, 2021 04:21
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There was enough other body horror stuff going on with Vauthry that it didn't feel like a lovely "fat = evil" thing. I do agree that his final form should've been more monstrous, though. All the other lightwardens (except Titania) were weird monsters, and one of the most striking things early on in Shadowbringers is Tesleen's horrifying transformation. Vauthry becoming a big weird abomination would've been cool as hell.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:22
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I still think one of the best parts of that scene is that Vauthry's the first person we see eating meol in it, and despite looking like bread, it's crunchy. Just a wonderfully off-putting and uncanny element, that the game doesn't dwell on for long enough to dispel. Vauthry is probably the best of the 'expansion secondary antagonists', he's just exceptionally well-realized. I can't tell if he's that good because he didn't get patch stories to wear out his welcome with, or if it's a tragedy he didn't get any to keep being a presence. EDIT: Also, if I'm any of the villains in this game, it's one of the Stormblood ladies. I, too, struggle with the ability to move on from being hurt and have a reflexive distrust of the notion that others were or could be treated better. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 04:26
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Cleretic posted:But gently caress it, I like asking what happens if we rearrange the pieces. This would be a dogshit way to handle basically every theme and plot point in ShB and all the build up before because you'd have to rewrite basically every single thing (all to just get rid of specific characters you didn't like) and no it is not interesting at all to talk about "Well what if they didn't do anything that actually happened in the plot or themes and did something completely different. That's not a discussion, it's freeform RP/Fanfiction writing, which can be fine as a solo activity, it's not conducive to a discussion on the game as it exists if you take it that far out. Given your personal history of barely grasping on to the narrative as written it's also just not interesting because any time you discuss the plot you end up making poo poo up so it's not even that different from your normal posting. Seriously, in 2 years of ShB being out you have basically circled back around to the same 4 points about the story. It's boring.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:29
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I think Vauthry as Innocence completed the trifecta of possibilities when an image of an angel comes to my mind Biblical - Storge - Just an emotionless face surrounded by wings. Body Horror - plenty, but I like Philia - Just a monstrous abombination, chained and tortured. Perfection - Innocence - Just look at him. There are others that can compete in the perfection category, like the standard lion dude or the trailer angel. And some that might cross lines like Obscenity. But Vauthry is at the peak, and the only really important one, that fills it.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:29
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jokes posted:The most powerful force in Eorzea: friendship
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Oct 4, 2021 04:34
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Also, his wings are swords
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Oct 4, 2021 04:35
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I liked the more abstract sin eaters. The rearranging wall of faces, Whimsy, was very Evangelion
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Oct 4, 2021 04:37
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my favourite horrifying but also funny vauthry moment is when he eats the fork
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Oct 4, 2021 04:37
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I still really like that when you do Mt Gulg as trust with Alphinaud he explicitly calls out Forgiven Cruelty as being extremely reminiscent of Amdapori guardians and I want to know more of what those dang White Mages were up to. Kuribu looks like Forgiven Dissonance too
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Oct 4, 2021 04:37
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I think if Vauthry was just rolling around in riches it wouldn't fit quite as well. The main thing with Light on the first isn't just that it's ascendant, it's that it's all-consuming and, more importantly, stagnant. Vauthry needs to be the embodiment of the Light, so he needs to convey the elements of sloth and gluttony as well. I guess you could just have him be a lazy prettyboy that's constantly being handfed by Forgiven Veneries and then make Innocence an extra-weird hosed up biblical angel instead, but I think him being physically large also adds to how imposing and threatening he is. Also I want SE to do a Mt. Gulg (Hard) just to get Soken to do an arrangement of the classic Mt. Gulg theme 
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Oct 4, 2021 04:37
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I think the other reason that they made him fat is that as well as conveying excess and stagnation, he is also meant to look like a giant baby.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:39
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....Does G'raha have as dense a soul of the unsundered? 7 from Sleeper, 8 from Exarch 
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Oct 4, 2021 04:39
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Nah, presumably his 7 OG shards overwrote the Source 7 shards.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:41
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Kazy posted:....Does G'raha have as dense a soul of the unsundered? 7 from Sleeper, 8 from Exarch Nah he's just kinda dumb. Orcs and Ostriches posted:Nah, presumably his 7 OG shards overwrote the Source 7 shards. 8, since he lived through 8th Calamity. Rejoinings affect the living as well, as least we can infer that from Emet telling us "If you manage to survive all the calamities you'd be made whole as well" in the chit chat during the ladder repairs.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:42
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Zutaten posted:I still really like that when you do Mt Gulg as trust with Alphinaud he explicitly calls out Forgiven Cruelty as being extremely reminiscent of Amdapori guardians and I want to know more of what those dang White Mages were up to. Kuribu looks like Forgiven Dissonance too I'm sorry, but that is a mystery about Gridania's past, which means it will never be explored no matter how interesting it appears. Fun fact: Scholar learns more about the history of White Mages than White Mages do.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:43
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I thought it was the WoL who they called out as having a denser soul, presumably because of Ardbert. That'll probably be relevant for them being the only person who can stand up to Zenos.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:43
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Nah he's just kinda dumb. I know it's 8 total. But his original 7 shards don't double up.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:44
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Twibbit posted:Also, his wings are swords I will give Innocence that that casual wrist flick summoning the swords is an unbelievably sick animation.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:45
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Begemot posted:I thought it was the WoL who they called out as having a denser soul, presumably because of Ardbert. That'll probably be relevant for them being the only person who can stand up to Zenos. When Elidibus hip checks First G'raha, he says he's denser than expected. And then later on the source G'raha says he still feels dense.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:45
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Back on the source graha also says yshtola said his soul is still dense as well. It's in some optional dialogue at the end of 5.3. You can see it transcribed here
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Oct 4, 2021 04:46
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Zutaten posted:I still really like that when you do Mt Gulg as trust with Alphinaud he explicitly calls out Forgiven Cruelty as being extremely reminiscent of Amdapori guardians and I want to know more of what those dang White Mages were up to. Kuribu looks like Forgiven Dissonance too The lorebook says they were fashioned after angelic beings. There's a not-insignificant chance they accidentally encountered a few sin eaters. It isn't like they're exclusive to the first, just common there because of the whole flood of light thing.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:46
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The WoL has 8 soul shards. 7 rejoinings and Ardbert, a rejoining just for you. G'Raha has 8 soul shards. 8 rejoinings. He lived through the 8th Calamity after all.
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Oct 4, 2021 04:46
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No Mods No Masters posted:Back on the source graha also says yshtola said his soul is still dense as well. It's in some optional dialogue at the end of 5.3. You can see it transcribed here Ahh, okay, that's what I was thinking of, here are the lines: G'raha Tia posted:G'raha Tia: As for my soul, Y'shtola assures me it is similar to yours, [Player's First Name]. That is to say it is somewhat denser than others, but otherwise normal. So yeah, WoL and G'raha have denser souls because of bonus rejoinings.
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Oct 4, 2021 05:08
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ImpAtom posted:The lorebook says they were fashioned after angelic beings. There's a not-insignificant chance they accidentally encountered a few sin eaters. It isn't like they're exclusive to the first, just common there because of the whole flood of light thing. Sin waters are hardly angelic beings in any coherent way though, aside from a few of them being superficially angel shaped. They're mostly genuinely abhorrent Light Zombies, incapable of speech or complex behavior. There's seemingly more examples of angelic imagery not directly tied to them. I can't imagine Amadpor considering them worthy of reverence, although Eden may have caused them to be more messed up than they would naturally be. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 05:17
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