(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Goast posted:why Book too small op
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Oct 8, 2021 07:41
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if Grimes gets attention from CPUSA, that implies that WSWS is going to defend Elon Musk sooner or later
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Oct 8, 2021 09:06
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hot witch divorcee posted:in the cpusa's defense: as i've been in further contact with other younger members of the party and am privy to more of our discussions, pretty much everyone is REALLY mad about the cpusa's grimes tweet i wouldn't worry about it as looking cool has probably never been a primary concern for people looking to be communists
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Oct 8, 2021 10:29
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i feel these younger party members are desperate to be "taken seriously" as communists. but why should anyone take you seriously? or take them seriously? what have YOU done to earn that respect? it's the boomers fault? really? and you've been the party for a week and have got it all figured out? you joined an organization that's basically like a star trek club and the co-chairs don't even know who grimes is except that she's some celebrity the kids like, but otherwise they don't care if she's actually a communist or not because it doesn't matter, which somehow makes them the less serious ones? why not exploit the situation for all it's worth? and why does grimes' actual opinion matter? ask yourself these questions. if you disagree, try to answer without resorting to moralisms. and i believe that even if grimes was an outright anti-communist who was waving a copy of the communist manifesto around to warn everyone about how bad it is, that would still probably be a good thing overall, because she'd inadvertently be exposing more people to the communist manifesto. there's a reason why the nazis banned it. and i believe that if you were reading this post a few weeks ago, you'd agree with what i'm saying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skz9odeewpc
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Oct 8, 2021 10:55
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Oct 8, 2021 11:17
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you didn't actually read it, yet you quoted my post in full anyways so it pops up on the next page so everyone will read it. you're the grimes to my CPUSA boomer.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:23
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Love to see a commie slap fight over loving Grimes of all people. This is why no revolution will happen ever and we're doomed to eco-fascism and planetwide civilization collapse, because anyone left of FDR spends too much energy on fighting other leftists about small potatoes bullshit.
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Oct 8, 2021 11:55
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Actually, I think it's capitalism that's the problem, not leftist slapfights.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:02
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Lenin - well known for his politeness to others on the left and his failure to bring about revolution.
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Oct 8, 2021 13:38
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namesake posted:Lenin - well known for his politeness to others on the left and his failure to bring about revolution. Well he eventually did more than writing slapfight pamphlets.
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Oct 8, 2021 14:02
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Falstaff posted:Actually, I think it's capitalism that's the problem, not leftist slapfights. Cool, good luck fighting the organization of capital because you're too busy arguing with comrades. namesake posted:Lenin - well known for his politeness to others on the left and his failure to bring about revolution. 1) don't worship men, they had their flaws and that was one of Lenin's. 2) even so, none of you in here, including myself, are close to being a Vladimir Lenin so it's a terrible comparison. My point is both sides have good points. That dumbass money fucker Grimes has probably exposed dozen of impressionable youths to a document that outlines a more just and egalitarian economic system, but also the CPUSA is useless as tits on a boar in its current state so any efforts to try to get it back to something useful should be lauded.
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Oct 8, 2021 14:04
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mycomancy posted:Cool, good luck fighting the organization of capital because you're too busy arguing with comrades. Grimes is trying on a new personality, she's not going to usher in people to Marxist thought, she's going to try to bring people into her her ego sphere and it's an obvious thing to try to piss off Elon. Your argument could be used to prop up Vaush as a communist and just loving no to that argument.
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Oct 8, 2021 14:19
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:she's not going to usher in people to Marxist thought, I didn't say that. There are literally thousands of teens and young adults who have never heard of the Communist Manifesto, and some proportion of them now know it exists because of that stupid tweet. A proportion of them will now go and read it because they know it exists. That's the point I'm getting at. Obviously she's as communist as Elon is, as in not at all. But the Streisand Effect is real, and it can and will affect people that aren't you and I who already appreciate the Immortal Science.
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Oct 8, 2021 14:27
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"Both sides have good points" is not a good reason to set aside your differences, it's actually a good reason to have it out. That's dialectics, it's how leftist movements grew and changed throughout history, and if there's any hope for a leftist movement in the future, it absolutely needs to get away from the whole "let's just agree to disagree (p.s. imma ignore you)" bullshit that occupies liberal spheres. Fight it out! Make your best argument! Try to learn from the other side if you can, and either way be the best advocate for your own beliefs that you can. And if you think it's an unimportant issue, great, you're welcome to stay out of it so the people who actually do care can try to work things out. Leftist solidarity can't actually be achieved in any other way, because for some reason "Your concerns don't matter" has never gone down well with anyone - and if someone's concerns are truly expressed in a way that's counterproductive to a movement, then all the more reason to rhetorically beat them into the dust. It's a lot better to have these battles before the left has power than after (if that time ever comes), when internal struggles are more likely to have guns and prisons involved.
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Oct 8, 2021 14:31
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mycomancy posted:I didn't say that. this is literally the “posting is praxis” argument lmao
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Oct 8, 2021 14:46
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Falstaff posted:"Both sides have good points" is not a good reason to set aside your differences, it's actually a good reason to have it out. That's dialectics, it's how leftist movements grew and changed throughout history, and if there's any hope for a leftist movement in the future, it absolutely needs to get away from the whole "let's just agree to disagree (p.s. imma ignore you)" bullshit that occupies liberal spheres. Hey, remember in the late 70s and early 80s when the evangelical and business conservatives were at each other's throat about how best to be conservative Liberals, which helped get Reagan into power? You don't, because the opposite happened. These two factions should hate each other if they were true to their ideology, but they both thirsted for power and now they've molded into a monstrosity that may never be defeated. But yes, we should squabble over trivial poo poo rather than uniting under a single socialist banner. That has worked out well over the last 40 years, hasn't it? Apologies for the sarcasm, but seriously repeating mistakes of the past is something that drives me bananas.
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Oct 8, 2021 14:47
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aids,  the thread
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Oct 8, 2021 14:49
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The infighting is not the cause of the failure of the left wing, its the lack of meaningful activity undertaken by the left giving real results which allows all the petty poo poo to dominate and appear meaningful. If there was a serious organised struggle taking place then it becomes very clear who can work together and who will prioritise their own petty attitudes over the movement and the former group chases out the latter. That's how unity is acheived, not moral requests for moderation. Build it and the left will come, in short.
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Oct 8, 2021 15:01
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grimes
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Oct 8, 2021 15:34
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grimey
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Oct 8, 2021 15:41
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:this is literally the “posting is praxis” argument lmao yeah, the idea that if enough people believed in communism enough and really wanted it enough to work hard for it we could have a revolution is just new age liberalism with "communism" filled in one of the blanks
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Oct 8, 2021 15:52
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namesake posted:The infighting is not the cause of the failure of the left wing, its the lack of meaningful activity undertaken by the left giving real results which allows all the petty poo poo to dominate and appear meaningful. If there was a serious organised struggle taking place then it becomes very clear who can work together and who will prioritise their own petty attitudes over the movement and the former group chases out the latter. That's how unity is acheived, not moral requests for moderation.  (and also another reason why Lenin the absolute lad was absolutely correct there)
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Oct 8, 2021 15:56
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i mean if i weren't so busy posting i probably would have finished inscribing the dialectical equations necessary to cast Historical Inevitability and end capitalism but 
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Oct 8, 2021 16:02
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mycomancy posted:Hey, remember in the late 70s and early 80s when the evangelical and business conservatives were at each other's throat about how best to be conservative Liberals, which helped get Reagan into power? Yes, the evangelical and business conservatives found common ground - but that only happened after literal decades of bitter fighting prior, and what differences were left were smoothed out via the power of money. That said, there's absolutely no question whose material interests are given primary consideration in that relationship, and it ain't the bible thumpers. Thing is, what you call "trivial poo poo" might be vitally important to someone else. And believe it or not, hashing it out in whatever forum (even online, though that's the least useful type of forum one could use) almost certainly doesn't distract anyone from doing other things too. If it does, then and only then does it become an actual problem. Nobody's going to destroy the revolution by getting into what you consider to be a petty argument on Something Awful. You want solidarity? You need to be prepared to put in the work, and that includes (but is certainly not limited to) fighting the internal battles that have to be fought.
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Oct 8, 2021 16:19
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:its not hard to imagine a future where "marxism" becomes as watered down as useless of a term as "socialism" has, especially with the US left's blindspots wrt imperialism First as tragedy, then as farce. Before "Revisionist" was a term of abuse thrown at various microsects against each other it used to describe the German SPD member Bernstein, who believed it was necessary to revise Marxist theory into essentially a program of electoral social democracy. This tendency of watering down Marxism is old enough Lenin was talking about it at the turn of the 20th century: Big Lenny posted:During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the “consolation” of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it.
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Oct 8, 2021 16:44
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Falstaff posted:Yes, the evangelical and business conservatives found common ground - but that only happened after literal decades of bitter fighting prior, and what differences were left were smoothed out via the power of money. That said, there's absolutely no question whose material interests are given primary consideration in that relationship, and it ain't the bible thumpers. it's not even about "fighting the battles" or hammering out the correct way to Do Communism. The evangelicals and business conservative alliance didn't emerge from a crucible of dialectical debate with the help of money -- capital built the organizational capacity to use evangelicals as a tool to pursue their material ends. That's it. The idea that you create theory (make posts) so good that they will generate communism is, like Hodgepodge said, a liberal delusion. You're putting the cart before the horse here: people don't create organization from correct, well-argued thought, organization aligns thought. The individual political desires of people dissolve and are replaced by organizational goals. You see this all the time everywhere. You can click over to D&D and see dozens of dumbasses start posts with "I voted for Bernie in the primary, but...", because their political desires were subsumed by the goals of the democratic organization, because the democratic party has that capacity. The only thing we're doing here, or on twitter, or wherever, is only for our own edification. The only thing that matters is building capacity for a future working class movement that, frankly, we may never live to see. Everything else is just arguments to be had -- and that's good in some respect to be able to identify who is ideologically aligned with your goals and not a lib wrecker, or to specifically identify optimal strategies or who needs help where -- but the arguments, the resolutions of the arguments, what arguments we're not having -- none of that poo poo matters. Only building capacity matters. Capacity that will be utilized by a working class that self-organizes as a result of material conditions, not good posts made after all of the ideological battles have been settled
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Oct 8, 2021 17:11
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hot witch divorcee posted:yeah like. so far it's about what i expect. you have a bunch of old people running things that have done a lot of good work but are out of touch and often swerve into succdem bullshit because they're the people who at least had the cop in their head that kept them from doing anything that would end with them being taken to an FBI blacksite. then you have a lot of younger people like me who are extremely online MLs that took the charge to join an ML org seriously and are likeminded in fixing the problem rather than being a bunch of trots and forming splits or whatever. LOL
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Oct 8, 2021 17:11
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:you didn't actually read it, yet you quoted my post in full anyways so it pops up on the next page so everyone will read it. what i could stand to read of it is pretty typical goon doomer bs that makes a lot of presuppositions about my Care Level and what i am seeking to accomplish that are wildly off-base and thus i don't particularly care to read all the words of. for me personally it's as simple as that i am seeing how well the cpc runs the prc using democratic centralism and dialectical materialist and historical materialist principles. there is an unfathomable amount of work between where we are in the US and being able to do that here, but that starts somewhere, like joining an org and participating in and practicing democratic centralism using dialectical and historical materialism. also i would like to actually visit china and meet with the cpc in some capacity someday. as much of a disaster as the cpusa is, they have the most groundwork and connections to do these things. hot witch divorcee has issued a correction as of 17:57 on Oct 8, 2021 |
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Oct 8, 2021 17:52
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:it's not even about "fighting the battles" or hammering out the correct way to Do Communism. The evangelicals and business conservative alliance didn't emerge from a crucible of dialectical debate with the help of money -- capital built the organizational capacity to use evangelicals as a tool to pursue their material ends. That's it. No, the battles these two groups fought were real, and meaningful, and the inroads the business conservatives built into the evangelical community were constructed through the expense of time, effort, and treasure. It's not like business interests didn't receive pushback over the decades they worked at their takeover. Prior to this, evangelical groups were a much more politically diverse on a number of issues, and although it's pretty clear whose interests are given primary concern in the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, it's also true that the business conservatives within this unholy alliance emerged from the process changed - because how could they not? quote:The idea that you create theory (make posts) so good that they will generate communism is, like Hodgepodge said, a liberal delusion. You're putting the cart before the horse here: people don't create organization from correct, well-argued thought, organization aligns thought. The individual political desires of people dissolve and are replaced by organizational goals. You see this all the time everywhere. You can click over to D&D and see dozens of dumbasses start posts with "I voted for Bernie in the primary, but...", because their political desires were subsumed by the goals of the democratic organization, because the democratic party has that capacity. I think you're projecting a lot of things onto my argument that aren't there, to be quite frank. You're 100% right that dialectical debate isn't the same thing as building organizational capacity, or doing praxis, or however you want to word it - and in fact, I would argue that any truly important dialectical debate can't really happen outside of an actually-existing organization. At no point did I argue that crafting theory would make anything happen, much less generate communism - go ahead and quote me if you think I did. And yeah, posting here is really just a hobby for people who like talking about stuff, its importance to anything outside the forums is nearly non-existent. My argument was directed against mycomancy who, from my reading, was very irked by the idea that someone might care about what it might say about the leadership of the CPUSA (an organization that someone happens to be a member of) would try to attach itself to Grimes' publicity stunt, even though they admitted that both sides "have good points." It seems to me, if both sides have good points, then that sounds like a good time to hash things out and figure out which points are more worthy of consideration. And if this debate were had within the organization itself, I might even suggest it would be of some importance, at least to that organization's well-being. If I've read mycomancy wrong then so be it, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something and it certainly won't be the last, but that doesn't make my argument turn into "posting is praxis," which is what you seem to be suggesting here.
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Oct 8, 2021 17:58
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hot witch divorcee posted:there is an unfathomable amount of work … but that starts somewhere, like joining an org and participating hell yeah buddy
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Oct 8, 2021 18:03
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Falstaff posted:No, the battles these two groups fought were real, and meaningful, and the inroads the business conservatives built into the evangelical community were constructed through the expense of time, effort, and treasure. It's not like business interests didn't receive pushback over the decades they worked at their takeover. Prior to this, evangelical groups were a much more politically diverse on a number of issues, and although it's pretty clear whose interests are given primary concern in the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, it's also true that the business conservatives within this unholy alliance emerged from the process changed - because how could they not? You did misrepresent the point I was trying to make but let's just drop it. This is what I get for posting as early in the morning as I did.
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Oct 8, 2021 18:22
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mycomancy posted:You did misrepresent the point I was trying to make but let's just drop it. This is what I get for posting as early in the morning as I did. If that's the case then I'm wrong, and I'm sorry for misreading you. I'll try to be more careful next time.
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Oct 8, 2021 18:30
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Falstaff posted:If that's the case then I'm wrong, and I'm sorry for misreading you. I'll try to be more careful next time. I wasn't doing the best posting tbf.
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Oct 8, 2021 18:38
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Falstaff posted:No, the battles these two groups fought were real, and meaningful, and the inroads the business conservatives built into the evangelical community were constructed through the expense of time, effort, and treasure. It's not like business interests didn't receive pushback over the decades they worked at their takeover. Prior to this, evangelical groups were a much more politically diverse on a number of issues, and although it's pretty clear whose interests are given primary concern in the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, it's also true that the business conservatives within this unholy alliance emerged from the process changed - because how could they not? the "expense of time, effort, and treasure" was the hand of capital, though. this stuff doesn't happen instantaneously. my point is that looking at american evangelicals and examining to who won what arguments at what point and who changed in what ways is mystification of big-C Capital. That individual actors or even broad-scope organizations changed in meaningful ways is entirely secondary to its relationship to capital as a class. Evangelicals were made into (more of) a tool of capital, as part of a process, but not one that changed capital, even if it sparked cultural changes in evangelicals or business conservatives or both. anyway I'm not really disagreeing with you, at least not essentially, I'm saying that your analysis is too narrow -- that any actually existing organization, and the arguments within it, are as meaningless as arguments about it. The only organization that matters as an organization is the coming mass movement of the working class, specifically because that mass movement can and will do to whatever competing left factions within and without organizations what capital did to the evangelicals and the business conservatives -- align their individual and organization wills and desires to the political goals of the class. But that mass movement doesn't exist yet, and so every argument we have that's not specifically and explicitly about what we can do to build capacity for the coming movement is pure entertainment. My point, or my criticism about your point, I guess, is that all the internal battles to be fought -- arguing about if what CPUSA doing is good or bad, or if MLs are more or less right than MLMs, or if Stalin was cringe or based, or whatever -- don't matter because we too, if we live to see it, will have our political desires subsumed by the class interests of an organized working class. e: I should add the important exception of unless these internal battles are related to meaningful organization, right now, in the place you are at.
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Oct 8, 2021 19:11
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The Voice of Labor posted:teen vogue's management needs to take over running cpusa  :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny: :imunfunny:
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Oct 8, 2021 20:14
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What's the deal with CPUSA? Do they do a lot of union organizing?
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Oct 8, 2021 20:44
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Algund Eenboom posted:
One can only expect so much from the minds of a cool zone thread poster.
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Oct 8, 2021 20:46
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Oct 8, 2021 20:49
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ted hitler hunter posted:What's the deal with CPUSA? Do they do a lot of union organizing? They’re notoriously full of cops and hot witch divorcee is a loving fool
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Oct 8, 2021 20:56
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| # ? May 25, 2024 14:10 |
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hot witch divorcee posted:what i could stand to read of it is pretty typical goon doomer bs that makes a lot of presuppositions about my Care Level and what i am seeking to accomplish that are wildly off-base and thus i don't particularly care to read all the words of. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 21:38 on Oct 8, 2021 |
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Oct 8, 2021 21:22
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