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Isn't psychohistory basically just proto-chaos theory?
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Oct 11, 2021 18:54
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:I wish psychohistory was real so it could warn us about about tedious TVIV posts Hari Seldon: It begins with a few book bragger posts on the border of the bad thread. Then next when barbarians point out how the show didn't change their life like Game of Thrones.
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Oct 11, 2021 20:20
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feedmyleg posted:Isn't psychohistory basically just proto-chaos theory? It's magic space maths. Any questions you have about it can be answered thusly.
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Oct 11, 2021 20:34
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sebmojo posted:It's magic space maths. Any questions you have about it can be answered thusly. Yea, calling it Math(s) works because everyone knows what that is, and just saying this is very advanced, complex math, lets everyone know what they're talking about. If they started getting more in depth people would be confused and angry.
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Oct 11, 2021 21:40
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Yeah just suspend disbelief and watch the show instead of arguing about it for pages you god drat nerds
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Oct 11, 2021 21:44
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Really advanced math = numbers with like 25 digits e: or like I dunno, long division
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Oct 11, 2021 21:47
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Data Graham posted:Really advanced math = numbers with like 25 digits my maths is the best maths, you can't understand it because you don't have the right level of understanding
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Oct 11, 2021 21:53
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i mean it's fine to talk about it and the series goes into a lot of detail about when it does and doesn't work but it's a core conceit that you can just accept that psychohistory does basically work because msm
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Oct 11, 2021 21:54
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Psychohistory in Foundation is Magic Space Math. Think Element Zero from Mass Effect or Warp Drive physics from Star Trek. “Psychohistory” in real life is a very complicated analysis of game theory which is used to determine what actions state actors will take and how other sovereigns can influence those decisions to their benefit.
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Oct 11, 2021 22:02
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I’m loving Foundation but how the gently caress did the robot through inaction allow dusk to be vaporised? Is Asimov’s three laws aren’t going to be thing or is she convinced that his death is required for the survival of humanity somehow? Regarding psychohistory’s initial conditions, one thing the prequels get into is that the vast majority of the work the Seldon project did was data gathering for those initial conditions. The reason why everyone treats maths as magical is the empire is dying and has been dying for a long time. There aren’t good mathematicians (or Psychologists) on Terminus so they couldn’t gently caress with the Plan and people just has poo poo that works and are just doing their jobs the way their great great great great grandfathers did, and on the periphery trying to survive in increasingly feudal conditions. I’m guessing you’ll see exactly how dire that’s getting next ep.
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Oct 11, 2021 22:12
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feedmyleg posted:Isn't psychohistory basically just proto-chaos theory? I have a vague recollection that one of the books maybe equated it to studying gasses? I.e. you have gently caress-all ability to say anything about a specific particle/human unless you study it in detail, but you can make reasonably good predictions about the behavior of the larger whole without studying each individual particle/human. ETA: But more concretely "magic space math".
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Oct 11, 2021 22:16
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Oct 11, 2021 22:17
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It’s just mathematical sociology + 20,000 years + perfect psychology
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Oct 11, 2021 22:21
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chaosbreather posted:I’m loving Foundation but how the gently caress did the robot through inaction allow dusk to be vaporised? Is Asimov’s three laws aren’t going to be thing or is she convinced that his death is required for the survival of humanity somehow? I haven't read the books but via what I've picked up through cultural osmosis I assumed she is the robot that worked out the "loophole" that preventing one human from dying might actually cause further human deaths, so therefore it was allowed to through inaction let a human kill themselves? Meaning that, given the situation we've seen set up in this series for the Empire to continue, Dusk must become Darkness and die to allow a new Dawn which will maintain the stability of the Empire and theoretically keep the maximum number of humans from harm?
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Oct 11, 2021 22:24
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Loezi posted:I have a vague recollection that one of the books maybe equated it to studying gasses? I.e. you have gently caress-all ability to say anything about a specific particle/human unless you study it in detail, but you can make reasonably good predictions about the behavior of the larger whole without studying each individual particle/human. Yeah, that's pretty much it, particles are individually unpredictable but put a sufficient quantity together and you can predict their behavior. Sure it's not that simple in real life, but neither is "create a wormhole from a rotating singularity." chaosbreather posted:I’m loving Foundation but how the gently caress did the robot through inaction allow dusk to be vaporised? Is Asimov’s three laws aren’t going to be thing or is she convinced that his death is required for the survival of humanity somehow? The answers are involved book spoilers so I won't even go into detail in the spoiler text but that's close enough. If this follows the books I expect the Three Laws to be there but also messed with by enough uncomfortable technicalities that they're not always operating how you'd think.
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Oct 11, 2021 22:28
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chaosbreather posted:I’m loving Foundation but how the gently caress did the robot through inaction allow dusk to be vaporised? Is Asimov’s three laws aren’t going to be thing or is she convinced that his death is required for the survival of humanity somehow? books and it's a big spoiler There is a 4th law. Allowing 1 human to die to save a million is more important. Saving 1 human life which knowingly results in more dying is not allowed. You are correct.
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Oct 11, 2021 22:35
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So my problems with the zeroth law theory are: 1. a zeroth law event is insanely traumatic for the robot. It hurts them like crazy, like they stroke out a bit witnessing it. So the idea that she’d be in for that is pretty wild and she didn’t really visibly react at all 2. it’s a world with access to alternatives like suspended animation, so the death ritual is unnecessary. She could probably easily fake the death with some holograms and spirit them away and it would have the exact same psychological impact. 3. The ritual can’t possibly under any calculations because worth killing a dude chaosbreather fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Oct 11, 2021 |
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Oct 11, 2021 22:50
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chaosbreather posted:So my problems with the zeroth law theory are: (book spoilers) The zeroth law is initially traumatic for Giskard after he re-programs himself because he's not sure if he's acting in humanity's best interests or not by killing Amadiro (in Robots and Empire). By the time Demerzel/Daneel is the Emperor's first minister, something like 30 thousand years have passed and presumably he's learned to cope with it a bit better. While the artist vaporization is invented for the series, Asimov does allude to Cleon's powers of life and death in his books. I didn't find it to be a stretch.
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Oct 11, 2021 23:01
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Boris Galerkin posted:My main problem is that they are treating math like it’s a divine prophecy, as I said in my original post. This is illustrated in the very first episode, in the very first interaction between Anderson Dawes and the main character. Anderson Dawes or his son says that math/numbers never lie and that is why their prediction that they’ll get arrested tomorrow is 100% true and going to happen.
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Oct 11, 2021 23:45
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The last couple of episodes have made it really clear that the Foundation treating Hari's predictions as gospel is leading to be woefully unprepared because they think they need to do nothing since the future is set in stone. Like the lack of maintenance for the weapons, and I believe the poorly maintained fence that's let hostile creatures in (as demonstrated by the creature in the crashed ship). One of the very few people who's actually being prudent is the warden.
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Oct 11, 2021 23:57
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I mean, we still have no idea how much of the retconned robot stuff will make it into the show and if it does it is still probably seasons away from “The Three Laws” being explained so my suggestion is either to wait or read the books? Like, I kind of feel like if a person has read enough of the books to ask this question a person has read enough of the books to know the answer so this really feels like performative spoilers. 
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Oct 11, 2021 23:58
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Wafflecopper posted:Yeah just suspend disbelief and watch the show instead of arguing about it for pages you god drat nerds Imagine coming to a thread to discuss a show, whoa
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Oct 12, 2021 00:03
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this is a hundred million dollar show about what would happen if slavoj zizek totally owned steven pinker in a debate. yes it is very silly its fun
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Oct 12, 2021 00:10
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I mean, we still have no idea how much of the retconned robot stuff will make it into the show and if it does it is still probably seasons away from “The Three Laws” being explained so my suggestion is either to wait or read the books? I vaguely remember the three laws and figured since it wasn't her first rodeo the robot had gotten used to it.
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Oct 12, 2021 00:10
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Farm Frenzy posted:this is a hundred million dollar show about what would happen if slavoj zizek totally owned steven pinker in a debate. yes it is very silly its fun Imagining this show with Zizek cast as Hari now 
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Oct 12, 2021 00:15
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I mean, we still have no idea how much of the retconned robot stuff will make it into the show and if it does it is still probably seasons away from “The Three Laws” being explained so my suggestion is either to wait or read the books? Taear posted:Imagine coming to a thread to discuss a show, whoa Exactly. Look, Foundation is a book about paper thin characters and galaxy-huge ideas. If you aren't interested in those ideas there isn't going to be much to talk about. And the thing I'm interested in here, and the thing lots of people are interested in here, including the director, is the TV show going to expand the world, which is very hard, or poo poo on it, which is very easy.
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Oct 12, 2021 00:31
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I got told off by somebody for spoiling the death of Paul in Dune, "I haven't read the books." Quoth he. He wasn't even part of the conversation.
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Oct 12, 2021 00:42
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Taear posted:Imagine coming to a thread to discuss a show, whoa there's discussing the show and there's the equivalent of arguing for pages about how jedi couldn't be real
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Oct 12, 2021 01:03
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A few too many "ok but it makes more sense in the book where it explains it better" posts in this thread for me to keep watching this show. Might wait until the season is done and revisit it.
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Oct 12, 2021 01:20
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EvilElmo posted:A few too many "ok but it makes more sense in the book where it explains it better" posts in this thread for me to keep watching this show. I hate binge watching TV and much prefer it old style where I get an episode every week, apart from in this case where I think binge watching it is the only way it'd work right until the scene is set, which is taking a while.
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Oct 12, 2021 01:37
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EvilElmo posted:A few too many "ok but it makes more sense in the book where it explains it better" posts in this thread for me to keep watching this show. i actually think the show is doing a good job of laying out where the characters in the book were at this point in the book, with a lot of (fairly well-done) ornamentation and addition.
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Oct 12, 2021 01:40
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Collateral posted:Dune spoilers gently caress you
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Oct 12, 2021 02:19
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Nitrousoxide posted:The last couple of episodes have made it really clear that the Foundation treating Hari's predictions as gospel is leading to be woefully unprepared because they think they need to do nothing since the future is set in stone. Like the lack of maintenance for the weapons, and I believe the poorly maintained fence that's let hostile creatures in (as demonstrated by the creature in the crashed ship). One of the very few people who's actually being prudent is the warden. The crashed ship is on the outside of the fence I think. remember, the crashed ship is where they capture the main protector lady, and then afterwards she had to let the leader in through the fence.
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Oct 12, 2021 03:22
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Nitrousoxide posted:The last couple of episodes have made it really clear that the Foundation treating Hari's predictions as gospel is leading to be woefully unprepared because they think they need to do nothing since the future is set in stone. Like the lack of maintenance for the weapons, and I believe the poorly maintained fence that's let hostile creatures in (as demonstrated by the creature in the crashed ship). One of the very few people who's actually being prudent is the warden. Yeah, this is why I think the distinction between "math" and "religion" is important in this case -- Hari HAD a valid algorithm or whatever that predicted the end of days, but no one could understand it besides Gaal, so with them out of the picture, it turns into sort of a cargo cult religion where they're doing the things but they don't know why they're doing the things anymore. The religion that grows up around psychohistory may not be the same thing as the actual psychohistory predictions.
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Oct 12, 2021 03:30
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I just watched the first 4 episodes and I think the writers are going for some kind of FF7 Remake corrupted timeline thing. At the end of the first season everything will pull back and we will see Hari Seldon running his very first psycho-historical simulation. He will stroke his chin and exclaim "ah I'm glad we calculated a way around that timeline!". The rest of the episode will be dedicated to Hari competing in a Heliconian Twisting competition on Trantor.
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Oct 12, 2021 03:44
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mr. unhsib posted:(book spoilers) The zeroth law is initially traumatic for Giskard after he re-programs himself because he's not sure if he's acting in humanity's best interests or not by killing Amadiro (in Robots and Empire). By the time Demerzel/Daneel is the Emperor's first minister, something like 30 thousand years have passed and presumably he's learned to cope with it a bit better. While the artist vaporization is invented for the series, Asimov does allude to Cleon's powers of life and death in his books. I didn't find it to be a stretch. (more books spoilers)Also, in Caves of Steel, it was revealed to Elijah that R Daneel had an extremely advanced experimental positronic brain that would allow it extreme flexibility of thought. As far as I know it's the only one in existence since it's creator's murder is the mystery driving the book. Daneel and Elijah Bailey were the only one's aware of it. Conversations between Giskard and Daneel over millennia came up with inventing psychohistory and codifying the 0th Law. Although I think a brief convo with Bailey and Daneel planted the seeds for the 0th Law. Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Oct 12, 2021 |
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Oct 12, 2021 03:58
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External Organs posted:I really dig the show but I do think it'd feel a bit different without the Grey's Anatomy narrations.
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Oct 12, 2021 04:56
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DaveKap posted:Oh is that a Grey's thing? I was comparing it to Mr. Robot in my head. Main character says metaphor at start, main character says metaphor again at end. It's such a tired framing mechanism. It's very common, unfortunately. Snowpiercer does something similar too (Hi from the Snowpiercer thread!). I can see why they'd want a device to tie all the disparate plot lines together, and to keep the audience thinking about characters who just aren't in episodes three and four, but no. Every time someone says something like "Math is like [blah]" I can't help but roll my eyes. It's so cheesy, and a way of sentimentalising something that doesn't really need to be sentimentalised. Also the irony of always and exclusively using the word "math" when this is a British production, featuring British actors speaking in their own accents, in a show about making sure all variations in knowledge and discourse are preserved, feels unintended and undermining.
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Oct 12, 2021 06:48
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Jerusalem posted:Imagining this show with Zizek cast as Hari now and so on and so on....
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Oct 12, 2021 12:06
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This show just exists for extremely pretty movie quality CGI in a TV show. The moment you put any ounce of thought into the storyline, the whole thing falls apart. The writers didn't even try.
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Oct 12, 2021 15:50
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