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splifyphus posted:Historical materialism isn't really deterministic, but yes - 'psychohistory' is just an extremely crude fictional analogue of historical materialism. Seldon is sort of a Marxy figure, except instead of calling for a revolutionary change in the structure the empire he just decides to peace out and build a big library. Asimov never even finished the Foundation story. The whole idea of psychohistory goes off the rails and he focuses on psionic powers instead, but that never goes anywhere either. The second empire is never formed, he just leaves the story half way finished. I'm hoping the people who wrote the show have an actual ending. They clearly don't mind changing things.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:10
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Lewis giving me big dumb gently caress energy
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Oct 13, 2021 23:42
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The chemist?
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Oct 14, 2021 00:29
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Rutibex posted:Asimov never even finished the Foundation story. The whole idea of psychohistory goes off the rails and he focuses on psionic powers instead, but that never goes anywhere either. The second empire is never formed, he just leaves the story half way finished. Yeah I read them decades ago and only remember 'dry, dull, and unfinished'. It's Asimov so they have their moments and cool concepts tho prolly. As for an ending, if other 'prestige' streaming shows are any indication, the ending will likely be whenever it gets cancelled. I don't see this becoming the 'GoT in space' it wants to be. emTme3 fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 00:31
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Lewis giving me big dumb gently caress energy He's gonna give that lady the navigation module and it's gonna end up being the key to lowering the shield or something 
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Oct 14, 2021 01:37
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Rutibex posted:Asimov never even finished the Foundation story. The whole idea of psychohistory goes off the rails and he focuses on psionic powers instead, but that never goes anywhere either. The second empire is never formed, he just leaves the story half way finished. I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Foundation's Edge decides the fate of humanity, and Foundation and Earth confirms and elaborates on that decision. We never see the decision carried out, sure, but the conflict is over. That's why Asimov only wrote prequels afterwards.
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Oct 14, 2021 03:33
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Foundation's Edge decides the fate of humanity, and Foundation and Earth confirms and elaborates on that decision. We never see the decision carried out, sure, but the conflict is over. That's why Asimov only wrote prequels afterwards. book spoilers, the show will 100% never get this far: Yeah I'm sure a super secret conspiracy with special powers would be able to dominate the galaxy this time with no issues or problems. The Gaia plan would have obviously ran into problems trying to scale to galactic proportions. Just like psycho-history ran into problems and just like the second foundation ran into problems. But I don't think Asimov had it in him to write a trans-humanist novel in the 1980s. Instead we got Hari Seldon fanfiction where he is mayor of Trantor and plays a mean game of Helconain Twister 
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Oct 14, 2021 04:00
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Asimov was amazing at writing textbooks.
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Oct 14, 2021 17:51
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Lewis giving me big dumb gently caress energy I aim to please
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Oct 14, 2021 21:47
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splifyphus posted:Historical materialism isn't really deterministic, but yes - 'psychohistory' is just an extremely crude fictional analogue of historical materialism. Seldon is sort of a Marxy figure, except instead of calling for a revolutionary change in the structure the empire he just decides to peace out and build a big library. I'm not sure where the show is going with it, but in the books the encyclopedia part of the Plan is explicitly just a sham to get things started. Anyway I watched the first four episodes of the show and I feel like I'm done with it. It's well produced and looks great, and I actually found myself really liking the 3 eternal Emperor clones culture they had going on Trantor. That was nice and weird I probably would have liked it more if it didn't really have anything to the Foundation books at all, because I'm more or less completely uninterested in the Foundation/Terminus side of whatever they're doing, the over-mystification of Hari Seldon's prediction/prophecy (while not really having any scenes where he or anyone else tries to explain it scientifically, just insisting on Gael Dornick being the only who can understand it and getting it from some magic techno-box), turning Hari Seldon's time vault into a mysterious "alien" monolith that fucks you up if you come close and making the character of Salvor Hardin some kind of chosen one (she's the only one who can approach the vault without getting hurt) with apparent empath powers(??) rather than a shrewd politician (they did gender-swap the character, though I feel like that's alright, the books barely have any female characters at all, I think I would have wanted someone a little bit older as well). And while I like the Dawn, Day and Dusk clone Emperors, I sort feel like they're throwing all subtlety about the fall that Hari Seldon predicts out the window with really upping the ante on the Empire being evil and 9/11 x a million happening in the first episode. Lastly, I just got tired of hearing "maffs". Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Oct 14, 2021 |
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Oct 14, 2021 23:41
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Nice spoiler...
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Oct 14, 2021 23:44
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The book is like 70 years old. But okay I'll fix that up.
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Oct 14, 2021 23:52
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Well I guess everyone in this thread knows the nature of the monolith now. Thanks man. A+ job. What is with book readers coming into this thread and just farting out spoilers left and right?
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Oct 14, 2021 23:55
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Okay, I'm sorry about that, I didn't really think it through. But again it's a 70 year old book, that's an easy read, and the spoiler in question (and the second one isn't even a big reveal in the book, because it's never made out to be a mystery) happens within the first 100 (or maybe 50) pages of it.
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Oct 15, 2021 00:01
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Please go to the book forum and make a foundation book thread if you want to have unspoilered talk about the story. This is TVIV for an ongoing series
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Oct 15, 2021 00:03
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Look, I’ve only read all the books up to 1879, I’m sorry I’m not as fast as you but you don’t have to be a dick about it
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Oct 15, 2021 00:12
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You know I don't mind if this show go full fantasy and make Seldon sleep with Gaal behind his protege's back, and his seed spawn Salvor Seldon. That's why she can enter Seldon's monolith. Hire me Apple!
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Oct 15, 2021 00:21
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Nitrousoxide posted:Please go to the book forum and make a foundation book thread if you want to have unspoilered talk about the story.  https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3923639
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Oct 15, 2021 00:22
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Book readers are the worse
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Oct 15, 2021 01:05
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Randarkman posted:Okay, I'm sorry about that, I didn't really think it through. But again it's a 70 year old book, that's an easy read, and the spoiler in question (and the second one isn't even a big reveal in the book, because it's never made out to be a mystery) happens within the first 100 (or maybe 50) pages of it. That said I kind of agree with this: Randarkman posted:I probably would have liked it more if it didn't really have anything to the Foundation books at all, because I'm more or less completely uninterested in the Foundation/Terminus side of whatever they're doing, the over-mystification of Hari Seldon's prediction/prophecy (while not really having any scenes where he or anyone else tries to explain it scientifically, just insisting on Gael Dornick being the only who can understand it and getting it from some magic techno-box), turning Hari Seldon's time vault into a mysterious "alien" monolith that fucks you up if you come close and making the character of Salvor Hardin some kind of chosen one (she's the only one who can approach the vault without getting hurt) with apparent empath powers(??) rather than a shrewd politician (they did gender-swap the character, though I feel like that's alright, the books barely have any female characters at all, I think I would have wanted someone a little bit older as well). I guess it's interesting that they can keep us guessing even if we read the books, but it's kind of not great because one of my guesses is, "maybe they just missed the point and did something silly."
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Oct 15, 2021 01:28
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Eiba posted:You're not being called out for spoiling the book, you're being called out for spoiling the TV series. Yeah sorry about that, I'm just not familiar with the culture in this sub forum and went into this thread making one too many assumptions regarding people's familiarity with the books. But I just wanted to type out and air my thoughts about this show because if it was completely unrelated to Foundation, or specifically the Foundation I may have enjoyed it alot more, because I really like the weirdness they've come up with with the three clone emperors and their robot-mom. I don't think that's in any of the books (though I never read all of them, I think I only read the trilogy), and since that means it's something they came up with on their own, I'm sort of disappointed they didn't just make a show about that, because from what I watched I really didn't care about the Foundation/Terminus side of the story at all, and that's like half the show and likely to increase in going forwards.
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Oct 15, 2021 01:38
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Randarkman posted:Okay, I'm sorry about that, I didn't really think it through. But again it's a 70 year old book, that's an easy read, and the spoiler in question (and the second one isn't even a big reveal in the book, because it's never made out to be a mystery) happens within the first 100 (or maybe 50) pages of it. Plenty of people watch TV shows and movies without reading the media they were adapted from, no matter how old. You wouldn't yell out plot points from a book when standing in line for a movie, no matter how old the book. I hate to mention this, but it's like yelling, back when Harry Potter was a national event, in a line for the sixth movie, Snape kills Dumbledore, even though the book had come out two years prior. edit: Sorry, my post was badly timed, badly worded, and unnecessary galenanorth fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 01:43
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galenanorth posted:Plenty of people watch TV shows and movies without reading the media they were adapted from, no matter how old. You wouldn't yell out plot points from a book when standing in line for a movie, no matter how old the book. I hate to mention this, but it's like yelling, back when Harry Potter was a national event, in a line for the sixth movie, Snape kills Dumbledore, even though the book had come out two years prior. I did not come in here to yell spoilers. I don't know what you're on about. It's not even supposed to be a mystery in the book.
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Oct 15, 2021 01:45
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In this adaption it's absolutely a mystery. Or was, for me until you spoiled it in this thread this evening. This is not the book. I have no problem with you talking about how the book is different from the show or whatever, but just put stuff that's not been revealed yet in spoiler tags.
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Oct 15, 2021 01:56
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I'm just not understanding the desire to come to this thread and have people say variations of "after watching 3 episodes it is clear that they will totally screw up [posts every major plot point] and that is why I hate this show." Not trying to jump on anyone specific, because it happens almost every page now... What is it about this dry-rear end, dusty old tome that has book readers so worked up? Is this some cultural thing amongst Asimov-stans or something? On some level, I blame reviewers like CinemaSins for this kind of thing: audiences have been taught to only view media for its faults and that enjoying anything is for the simple-minded or children. But this, specific book seems to really bring that out in people. I wonder why, because as people keep saying: it's not a very good book.  Randarkman posted:I did not come in here to yell spoilers. I don't know what you're on about. It's not even supposed to be a mystery in the book. You just happened to be the most recent of about a dozen people to come to the thread and driveby with spoilers from the book. Posters, like myself, who are actually enjoying the show are starting to find criticisms of, or comparisons to, the book to be tedious and pointless because it is either a wall of spoilers or black text discussing things that probably won't happen for a couple of seasons.
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Oct 15, 2021 02:03
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Randarkman posted:Yeah sorry about that, I'm just not familiar with the culture in this sub forum and went into this thread making one too many assumptions regarding people's familiarity with the books. But I just wanted to type out and air my thoughts about this show because if it was completely unrelated to Foundation, or specifically the Foundation I may have enjoyed it alot more, because I really like the weirdness they've come up with with the three clone emperors and their robot-mom. I don't think that's in any of the books (though I never read all of them, I think I only read the trilogy), and since that means it's something they came up with on their own, I'm sort of disappointed they didn't just make a show about that, because from what I watched I really didn't care about the Foundation/Terminus side of the story at all, and that's like half the show and likely to increase in going forwards. Robot mom is in the books, but the clone emperor is new. Cloning wasn't really a thing in sci-fi when Asimov wrote Foundation so it feels like a natural addition.
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Oct 15, 2021 02:03
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Oh thank goodness the new ep just posted!
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Oct 15, 2021 02:10
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:What is it about this dry-rear end, dusty old tome that has book readers so worked up? Is this some cultural thing amongst Asimov-stans or something? It's the only asimov books I ever read, and it's basically pulp sci-fi, it's an easy and quick read and it's basically just a series of short stories that were printed in a magazine (I think) strung together by the red thread of Hari Seldon's Plan, which means they're extremely consistent in length and basically perfect for a commute read. They're not amazing works of art, just enjoyable and influential in having elements from them that have been referenced, copied and adapted in lots of other sci-fi books and movies. My problem with it being an adaptation of the books is that I basically wish the series had nothing to do with the books, because what was going on that was not related to the books I actually enjoyed quite a bit, while the adapted parts strike me as weird because they're taking these incredibly simple things from the book and streeetching them out and making mysteries of plot elements that were never intended to be mysteries. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 02:12
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Honestly I was more than surprised when they mentioned an 80-90 episode plan because that felt like some Hobbit-level stretching. I have been waiting for the vault to open and have its big reveal, but I also kind of thought that would happen at the end of episode 3. When 4 cliffhangered like that, I started wondering how long it would be before my main man JH shows back up, if they wait until the end of the season for that I will be a little miffed...
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Oct 15, 2021 02:17
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Honestly I was more than surprised when they mentioned an 80-90 episode plan  A Foundation series should be paced at 2-3 episodes per book. Its a fast paced story that glosses over hundreds of years with a hand wave and should be treated like that. Unfortunately very fine Trantor sets and emperor costumes are expensive and they want to get their monies worth
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Oct 15, 2021 02:40
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Rutibex posted:
They should have just made a show about the Empire/Trantor and not bothered with the Foundation.
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Oct 15, 2021 02:42
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Randarkman posted:They should have just made a show about the Empire/Trantor and not bothered with the Foundation. So Star Wars? I'd watch that
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Oct 15, 2021 02:45
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I can tell this is going to turn into one of those threads where you only stay subscribed for 2-3 days after the episodes air, then check out for the rest of the week while the dumb parts happen.
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Oct 15, 2021 02:46
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Randarkman posted:They should have just made a show about the Empire/Trantor and not bothered with the Foundation. Asimov did write a bunch of books set in the galactic empire that had nothing to do with the Foundation. There’s one about a conspiracy around the economics of fabric production that’s especially thrilling.
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Oct 15, 2021 02:53
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Boris Galerkin posted:Book readers are the worse You'd never catch me reading a book.
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Oct 15, 2021 03:29
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Death to the literate.
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Oct 15, 2021 03:34
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OH A CASKET OF HIS OWN DESIGN HUH
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Oct 15, 2021 04:32
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apatheticman posted:OH A CASKET OF HIS OWN DESIGN HUH I loved this, like yeah that certainly isn't going to mean anything But holy poo poo they need to move things forward faster here and stop with these awful cliffhangers if they're not going to let us binge watch. Basically everything from the Gaal flashback was stuff we'd already inferred from what we've seen so far. It was nice to see a little fleshing-out of the universe but I'm starting to get annoyed that they're wasting half the episode on these flashbacks and interludes when it seems like the main storyline is the tense standoff (and holy poo poo massacre) going down on Terminus. And/or what the gently caress Gaal is up to on strange prison ship.
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Oct 15, 2021 04:50
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This episode had no Lee Pace so I'm mad Liked everything involving Gaal figuring out a way around the authorization limitations to figure out her destination but the stuff on Terminus where of course everything went exactly according to the Huntress' master plan felt a little contrived - like why wouldn't Salvor open her communication with "Hey they've got a cloaked anti-spaceship cannon down here"? That seems like pretty important information and though she wasn't to know the Huntress' #2 had orders to let comms stay open long enough to trick the Imperial Commander into ordering her to the tower, they were banking a lot on that cannon (that they prepped completely in the open in front of Salvor!) information not being conveyed in that window and completely blowing their strategy to pieces.
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Oct 15, 2021 05:03
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I'm the sickos guy but haha yes haha yes at people having to suffer through week long cliffhangers again. Jerusalem posted:This episode had no Lee Pace so I'm mad Yeah, not saying something when given the chance makes zero sense when she had just said "it's not us they're hiding it from". WELL, THEN WHO, SALVOR??? Also, every gun in this show works like a laser musket that is eight feet long and can't hit the side of a barn but that one canon shoots like Apollo's arrow...  And we have an ILP (infinite Lee Pace) machine and didn't get a single Lee Pace so I'm mad! Also really excited for the upcoming week because there will be so many book-stans who will absolutely hate this episode and all of its content... 
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Oct 15, 2021 05:13
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