(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Slavvy posted:Sorry, I misunderstood the thrust of your post! I got it confused with this kind of thinking: There is always work to be done, it may not be profitable or count up to 40 hours a week, but it exists. The ideal is everyone benefit and for that to happen, there is a certain loss of freedom. I have no problem with bureaucracy, gosplan etc. To be clear I am not a anarchist/left communist/orthodox Marxist or a syndicalist etc. If guys want to jack off and will die to defend that right, there can be a dormitory for them. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:51 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 23:44
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| # ? May 24, 2024 18:10 |
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Xi needs to send all the posters in this thread to work in the countryside
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Oct 17, 2021 23:46
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Atrocious Joe posted:Xi needs to send all the posters in this thread to work in the countryside
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Oct 17, 2021 23:47
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Posting Xi Jinping thought is the most necessary and productive form of work
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Oct 17, 2021 23:54
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Atrocious Joe posted:Xi needs to send all the posters in this thread to work in the countryside Chairman xi, thank you for moving my posting from an urban environment to the countryside.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:56
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https://twitter.com/RecceGen/status/1449688830970376198
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Oct 18, 2021 00:18
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broke: horse paste woke: horse respirators
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Oct 18, 2021 00:19
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that whole bit in the shatner nuke documentary rules https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xoHbBkUGSQ
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Oct 18, 2021 00:37
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Slavvy posted:Ecologically there is an objective need to reduce the amount of activity being done, of any kind The ecological need is the exact opposite, for a heroic effort akin to the USSR's industrialization in order to replace dirty machinery with clean where possible or convert to labor-intensive processes where not, rebuild our (as industrialzed countries in general, but especially the US) power generation away from fossil fuels, rework transportation infrastructure toward rail and manufacturing of bulky/heavy goods closer to where they'll be used, and redevelop suburbs into midrise mixed-use with local mass transit and rural areas into properly centralized walkable villages with long-distance transit access while preparing for mass waves of refugees. Now, war communism doesn't mean 16-hour days at the ammo plant for every single person, there's a need for not just basic services but art, hope, small luxuries, all that. But the potential for that in our future makes me even more inclined to prefer the option of being considered a working member in good standing of whatever neo-SSP than a slacker who uses my time well when that time comes, even though I'd be doing the same things either way. E: wasn't trying to last-word, just mostly wrote at stoplights and then  after getting home. Econ or theory threads would probably be a better place to continue, though.
Mandoric has issued a correction as of 01:19 on Oct 18, 2021 |
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Oct 18, 2021 01:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:that whole bit in the shatner nuke documentary rules https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUKFc1Du86U
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Oct 18, 2021 01:17
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The MTW lunatics are correct in their assessment that the first world is a giant parasitic labor siphon that outsources much/most of it's dirty work. They're wrong in declaring western service drones secret bourgeoise, but in any utopian global socialist future that doesn't involve sci-fi robots/replicators there might be more full-time etsy artists and artisanal dildo makers overall globally, but there's probably gonna be alot less in society as most of us here experience it. Alot more people are going to have to do traditional heavy labor as their main role in society and it's not going to be done because a huge portion of society just loves cleaning toilets, moving boxes, sewing jeans, extracting resources, or laying bricks as artistic hobbies. If we stop exploiting the third world so aggressively, and provide decent working conditions, and reasonable hours... all of those are workforce multipliers. The people doing those jobs will live better lives than the people doing them now, and be able to express themselves/study/jackoff in their vastly greater free time, but there would be more people doing those jobs and most of them would rather be doing something else.
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Oct 18, 2021 01:51
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In the current system, fifty rich assholes poop in office washrooms and one person has the full-time job of cleaning those washrooms. Perhaps the rich people could spend 1/50th of their time cleaning their toilet themselves. I'm sure they'd cry about oppression because they can no longer feel superior to the toilet cleaner.
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Oct 18, 2021 02:14
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Just saying that the whole "clean the toilets" talk is making me think of a highly militaristic society where everyone just grabs the buckets and brooms and starts cleaning the offices at the end of the work week.
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Oct 18, 2021 02:48
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this is incredibly loving awesome?!?!
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Oct 18, 2021 03:52
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Just saying that the whole "clean the toilets" talk is making me think of a highly militaristic society where everyone just grabs the buckets and brooms and starts cleaning the offices at the end of the work week. just because something is regimented doesn’t mean it’s militaristic. I don’t think they make Japanese students clean the schools to prepare them for the SDF or anything
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Oct 18, 2021 03:54
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dead gay comedy forums posted:this is incredibly loving awesome?!?! It rules. eSports Chaebol posted:just because something is regimented doesn’t mean it’s militaristic. I don’t think they make Japanese students clean the schools to prepare them for the SDF or anything If you're responsible for something you are more likely to look after it. And if trashing the place makes more work for everyone else you will rapidly learn the perils of in-group/out-group dynamics.
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Oct 18, 2021 04:00
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Just saying that the whole "clean the toilets" talk is making me think of a highly militaristic society where everyone just grabs the buckets and brooms and starts cleaning the offices at the end of the work week. what militaristic society do you mean? Like, my frame of reference for that as a dumb nerd is how Japanese and Korean students clean their classrooms themselves on however many set times and that seems perfectly fine to me, not only does it teach cleaning skills it hopefully establishes at least a sliver of empathy for custodians and such that will maybe make at least most of them slightly more useful citizens. I don't see an issue in applying that to the workplace as well.
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Oct 18, 2021 04:01
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I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, and I wasn’t referring to any existing nation right now. It’s my personal experience in the military but at a national level. It’s what we did.
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Oct 18, 2021 04:08
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, and I wasn’t referring to any existing nation right now. It’s my personal experience in the military but at a national level. It’s what we did. I mean it is an example of how we can only imagine (and only approve of) anything outside of capitalist relations if it’s Actually Existing Camofare
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Oct 18, 2021 04:09
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, and I wasn’t referring to any existing nation right now. It’s my personal experience in the military but at a national level. It’s what we did. Did generals clean the toilets, too?
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Oct 18, 2021 04:13
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Chamale posted:Did generals clean the toilets, too? The generals cleaned the toilets when they weren’t generals.
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Oct 18, 2021 04:15
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The generals cleaned the toilets when they weren’t generals. and so the young inherit a generation of brutalization  and several pounds of dried poo poo
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Oct 18, 2021 04:22
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Chairman xi, thank you for moving my posting from an urban environment to the countryside.
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Oct 18, 2021 06:22
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Rent-A-Cop posted:If there are things that need doing then that isn't make-work, it's just work. And the ethical way to make sure those things get done is to offer something attractive in exchange for doing them. And besides it's like Mao said (to paraphrase): you don't really attain this knowledge by thinking about it a lot. You attain it by doing the thing - accomplishing the task in the context of your real circumstances. Nobody in the world has advanced the dialectic to the point we're reasoning about, so while it's certainly interesting and maybe even a little bit useful to speculate about these things, in the end you must face the truth that we're all kind of talking out of our asses, here.
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Oct 18, 2021 06:23
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Having said that, it's not really difficult at all for me to imagine an economy where the typical custodian is living a lifestyle equivalent to a contemporary $125k/yr salary job or better, and the status of that job is not particularly low, because there are no low-status jobs, and because people have enough self awareness to realize that if the custodian didn't exist then the toilets where they work would be unusable inside of a week.
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Oct 18, 2021 06:27
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:there are no low-status jobs
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Oct 18, 2021 06:28
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:And besides it's like Mao said (to paraphrase): you don't really attain this knowledge by thinking about it a lot. You attain it by doing the thing - accomplishing the task in the context of your real circumstances. Nobody in the world has advanced the dialectic to the point we're reasoning about, so while it's certainly interesting and maybe even a little bit useful to speculate about these things, in the end you must face the truth that we're all kind of talking out of our asses, here. ain’t that the truth. I’m just a little disappointed that even this thread is so enthralled by capitalist realism that a lot of people can’t even imagine A) the unfathomable amount of socially desirable labor out there for the taking under socialism and B) the boundless depths of human experience and knowledge of the universe that awaits future generations on the other side of the capitalist era of history
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Oct 18, 2021 06:32
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kinda proud i named these buds on my first try
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Oct 18, 2021 07:04
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Centrist Committee posted:ain’t that the truth. I’m just a little disappointed that even this thread is so enthralled by capitalist realism that a lot of people can’t even imagine A) the unfathomable amount of socially desirable labor out there for the taking under socialism and B) the boundless depths of human experience and knowledge of the universe that awaits future generations on the other side of the capitalist era of history Put another way: any medium-term prognostications about a theoretical world socialism that have people near the imperial core living lives of even greater luxury in material terms than they currently enjoy, are snake oil. They are not realistic and not to be taken seriously. We can have healthier relations with the means of production for sure, but if we're not working harder and smarter as well then we're still just waiting to boil alive and what's more probably still exploiting someone on the other side of the world while we're doing it, too.
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Oct 18, 2021 07:04
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That's what I think. This is all just theoretical discussion, so you can imagine any sort of stateless classless society you want. But in practice, in the world that we live in now, things might end up looking like Soviet war communism.
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Oct 18, 2021 07:17
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Centrist Committee posted:ain’t that the truth. I’m just a little disappointed that even this thread is so enthralled by capitalist realism that a lot of people can’t even imagine A) the unfathomable amount of socially desirable labor out there for the taking under socialism and B) the boundless depths of human experience and knowledge of the universe that awaits future generations on the other side of the capitalist era of history 100% agreed. who cares if we have layabouts in future communism but i honestly don't think that'd be the case. i'm lazy as hell and would take the dole UBI if offered under the current system but even i recognize there's so, so much to do. there are so many trees to plant, so much masonry to turn into long-lasting buildings, so many beaches to restore, so much plastic to pull out of the oceans. it'd be great if we could be labor-efficient in these departments but at the moment i don't give a poo poo. give me healthcare and a pension and i will literally move to north dakota to turn it into a forest, or chop that forest down to give everyone furniture in 2050, or work the varnish factory that gives a nice stain, or help deliver and install that carbon-sink furniture if i'm able
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Oct 18, 2021 07:41
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:That also raises the question: how do you get people in so-called developed nations to go along with this, and I suppose optimistically they might see that they are not having their surplus value taken from them so that e.g. Jeff Bezos can piss it away on rockets or whatever - that they are really doing something useful and can see the benefit (including the benefit of the future not looking so loving bleak anymore, which is huge if you can make it happen and be believable for the typical person). The less optimistic answer is that they'll go along with it when they have no other choice because the capitalist empire has finally burned out and can no longer sustain itself - we might have a totally ruined world by then, in the sense of like a permanent stone age. MTW is the centrist option here tbh
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Oct 18, 2021 07:44
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i say swears online posted:kinda proud i named these buds on my first try   can someone send this one to the twitter guy who does the body posture lines
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Oct 18, 2021 07:53
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https://twitter.com/cnnphilippines/status/1450003588810301445
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Oct 18, 2021 10:09
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rip, my dude
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Oct 18, 2021 10:16
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deleted already!
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Oct 18, 2021 13:08
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i say swears online posted:kinda proud i named these buds on my first try That's Saddam and Indira Gandhi right?
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Oct 18, 2021 14:02
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https://twitter.com/shreyas_k_reddy/status/1450041846692937731 for context this is the guy from the fringe right wing universal basic income party
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Oct 18, 2021 15:39
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Lostconfused posted:But in practice, in the world that we live in now, things might end up looking like Soviet war communism. to fight climate change and reorganize the economic arrangement in shortest possible order, while providing necessities of life (and I say necessities not stuff that we think that are necessary), war communism might be the best vector of approach tbqh MSDOS KAPITAL posted:for example any socialism that properly prices in the effects of climate change is going to find that there is a poo poo ton of socially-useful work to be done, and there are other areas as well, and in fact it's not hard to imagine, that far from socialism resulting in less work to do overall for the typical person, it actually results in more. We probably have right now more work to be done than we have people to do the work, actually, and the longer we stick to capitalism, the bigger the divide becomes I think this is a loving great post
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Oct 18, 2021 16:09
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| # ? May 24, 2024 18:10 |
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:you must face the truth that we're all kind of talking out of our asses, here. Thanks for that excellent and well reasoned post. Some interesting stuff there I hadn't considered.
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Oct 18, 2021 16:39
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