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A.o.D. posted:The Vortas are people persons. They take the orders from the Founders to the Jem'Hadar and the other lesser races. They're people persons. They're good with people! Unironically this. I always got the sense that, just like the Jem'Hadar were purpose built killing machines, the Vorta were purpose built talking machines. I don't get the sense that the Founders gave them their own culture, just loyalty and people skills and probably a lot of schooling.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:37
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Who is worse between the Dominion and the Borg? They both don't understand or respect the existence of the "normal" way of life for most of the races of Star Trek, but one is more purposefully engineering genocide, while the other nominally will keep some aspect of its victims alive but is a lot more efficient at eliminating opposition.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:15
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multijoe posted:Killing the Borg is a galactic level trolley problem though, by killing them you're preventing an untold number of future genocides. If I were Picard I'd have pushed the button you'd also be preventing an untold number of people ascending to a higher form of existence. honestly i think selfishism is probably something that wouldnt exist in trek if it were made by people who lived in trek. just seems like they'd appreciate the benefit of collectivism more than we can given how insanely selfish our economy and society is structured and petty individuality glorified.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:36
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BonHair posted:Unironically this. I always got the sense that, just like the Jem'Hadar were purpose built killing machines, the Vorta were purpose built talking machines. I don't get the sense that the Founders gave them their own culture, just loyalty and people skills and probably a lot of schooling. how did the founders go about making other races anyway? they get real good at advanced biotech at some point or.... are they just shapeshifting genetic material in a very specific way to give rise to new beings after some shapeshifter shag down?
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Oct 26, 2021 18:38
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I genuinely don't think I've ever seen these named as Star Trek VII and VIII before (I'm sure they have, it's just the first I've ever encountered)
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Oct 26, 2021 18:45
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Khanstant posted:how did the founders go about making other races anyway? they get real good at advanced biotech at some point or.... are they just shapeshifting genetic material in a very specific way to give rise to new beings after some shapeshifter shag down? The Vorta were uplifted from some kind of lemur like creature - whether the story about those creatures protecting a founder and being rewarded is true or not, I figure we can at least accept that the creatures existed. There was probably some other kind of creature that got uplifted to make the Jem'Hadar rather than them being made out of whole cloth. 'Good with biology' just seems to be one of the Dominion's 'hats'. Even before the Jem'Hadar and Vorta appeared there was that planet afflicted by the engineered plague that Bashir had to deal with.
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Oct 26, 2021 18:47
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Snow Cone Capone posted:I genuinely don't think I've ever seen these named as Star Trek VII and VIII before (I'm sure they have, it's just the first I've ever encountered) I wonder if they ever make a disco/picard/snw/ld movie will they call it a numbered Trek to differentiate it from the JJtrekverse? Shyrka posted:The Vorta were uplifted from some kind of lemur like creature - whether the story about those creatures protecting a founder and being rewarded is true or not, I figure we can at least accept that the creatures existed. There was probably some other kind of creature that got uplifted to make the Jem'Hadar rather than them being made out of whole cloth. I gotcha. It's hard to comprehend their tech level since you barely see it or them interact with it, mostly just think of them as wet perverts who live in a public toilet pool together.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:00
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Ah I see I clicked on the DISCO trek thread, a bunch of people wondering if Genocide is ok this one time
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Oct 26, 2021 19:01
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HopperUK posted:Destroying the Founders would be a bad move (says the Vorta fan, but). You wipe them out, you're effectively destroying the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar too and then chaos reigns in a huge chunk of the galaxy that hasn't known anything else for thousands of years. I mean they *really* suck, but that's some loving around that will lead to some serious finding out.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:02
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SlothfulCobra posted:Who is worse between the Dominion and the Borg? They both don't understand or respect the existence of the "normal" way of life for most of the races of Star Trek, but one is more purposefully engineering genocide, while the other nominally will keep some aspect of its victims alive but is a lot more efficient at eliminating opposition. Borg's worse, easily. It's possible to negotiate with the Dominion, they're not just a thing running on automatic. The promise of the end of DS9 is Odo will be able to reform the Founders and create a better Dominion that people can live with peaceably. There's never any indication the Borg could change or wants to. Individual drones sure, but the collective as a whole?
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Oct 26, 2021 19:06
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Not sure but thinking maybe the Klingons are ok to genocide. They've been a violent threat to the greater peace of the galaxy for centuries. Hard to count the number of worlds they've marauded and pillaged and intimidated. Not sure but thinking maybe the Andorians are ok to genocide. They've been a threat to the sector's greater peace for decades. The threat they pose to the Vulcans alone should give weight to this discussion.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:15
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah it's funny how 90s Trek has all the answers to the questions that post 9/11 Trek thinks is hard.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:19
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Grand Fromage posted:Borg's worse, easily. It's possible to negotiate with the Dominion, they're not just a thing running on automatic. The promise of the end of DS9 is Odo will be able to reform the Founders and create a better Dominion that people can live with peaceably. There's never any indication the Borg could change or wants to. Individual drones sure, but the collective as a whole? why would the borg want to change? what's the appeal of feeling lonely with a weak limited mind and consciousness where you might end up with a life of endless empty toil with a bunch of selfish alien weirdoes who can barely communicate with one another, let alone cooperate as a collective. the sole issue with the borg is one of consent and it wouldn't take a genius to think "maybe asking first" could be a more viable long-term strategy.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:22
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:Not sure but thinking maybe the Klingons are ok to genocide. They've been a violent threat to the greater peace of the galaxy for centuries. Hard to count the number of worlds they've marauded and pillaged and intimidated. Why are we talking about genociding Andorians and not Vulcans? Everyone knows who the greater threat to interstellar peace is. There's no way you can imagine a bunch of Andorians convinced to wipe out some other races because of logical necessity and the needs of the many. Now tell me you can't see those pointy-eared hobgoblins exterminating the Romulans to ensure peace in the galaxy. Who's the real threat to other cultures?
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Oct 26, 2021 19:24
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Shyrka posted:The Vorta were uplifted from some kind of lemur like creature - whether the story about those creatures protecting a founder and being rewarded is true or not, I figure we can at least accept that the creatures existed. There was probably some other kind of creature that got uplifted to make the Jem'Hadar rather than them being made out of whole cloth. "Uplifted" could mean anything from engineering their sentience from a common animal to the Vorta being their own independent warp-capable civilization and the "uplift" being their conquest and domination by the Dominion, and then they'd only need a little engineering to get brought into the whole system of re-cloning for maximum usage. The Jem'Hadar though, definitely have more engineering in them, because their whole life cycle seems pretty unnatural even without the chemical dependence. I'm not sure what the rest of the Dominion is like and how much engineering they have or how much autonomy they have beneath the iron-fisted occasionally genocidal rule of the Founders. There were those trading guys, but do the Founders need them for their logistics or are they just independently trading between Dominion subjects? Maybe the Founders themselves have done some kind of engineering on themselves to develop perfect shapeshifting and the ability to fuse into a puddle of collective thoughts, that seems like something that would really be the jam of some other Star Trek civilizations trying to perfect themselves. And it kinda makes more sense for all the supposed distrust of the Founders outside of the Dominion to come after the development of a creepy empire rather than before. I dunno if the Franchise has any interest in looking at the other side of that wormhole again though.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:24
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The Dominion, especially early on, struck me as a Roman Empire kind of deal. All the individual worlds paying tribute to the Founders via the Vorta, and the Jem'Hadar making sure they stay in line, but otherwise they can do their own thing. I'm also into the idea that the Founders are super good at genetic engineering on their own. They had some pretty advanced tech on their home planet when the crew was captured there. And also the Vorta story specifically mentions that they were not a culture, just animals. If we can trust the story of course.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:44
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Admiralty Flag posted:Why are we talking about genociding Andorians and not Vulcans? Everyone knows who the greater threat to interstellar peace is. There's no way you can imagine a bunch of Andorians convinced to wipe out some other races because of logical necessity and the needs of the many. Now tell me you can't see those pointy-eared hobgoblins exterminating the Romulans to ensure peace in the galaxy. Who's the real threat to other cultures? *sighs loudly so you know it's a tough choice for me, the protagonist* I think we may just have to genocide both,
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Oct 26, 2021 19:46
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:*sighs loudly so you know it's a tough choice for me, the protagonist* I think we may just have to genocide both, Do you think I LIKE making these choices? That I ENJOY knowing what we decide here today will lead to billions of deaths? No. I don't. But through a series of tortured contrivances, that is the only option the writers want to present as valid. *scoffs* So come back when you have the guts to do more than talk about how things should be.
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Oct 26, 2021 19:53
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Picard has killed the space ravioli and is now trying to save the filling.
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Oct 26, 2021 20:29
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BonHair posted:Unironically this. I always got the sense that, just like the Jem'Hadar were purpose built killing machines, the Vorta were purpose built talking machines. I don't get the sense that the Founders gave them their own culture, just loyalty and people skills and probably a lot of schooling. Yeah, they don't seem to have actual culture, but it kinda feels like it was something taken away, rather than something they never had. Weyoun is wistful about art and music in a way that kind of implies to me it's something the Founders sliced out of them as unimportant. Apparently there was a scene written but not shot where after the occupation of DS9, the Starfleet people come back and Weyoun's been living in Bashir's quarters, and he's collected all kinds of random objects from all over the station and put them on like, shelves and stuff, just to look at and presumably try to understand them. I probably mentioned it here before because it's really moving to me. The Vorta are not very pleasant and completely amoral but they got done dirty. e: also I wanna see a Vorta in Starfleet in the future. Assuming a little while of peace with the Dominion I don't see why not, it's no weirder than anyone else's bizarro religion.
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Oct 26, 2021 20:30
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Jfc Geordi straight up gaslights this woman what the flying gently caress
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Oct 26, 2021 20:43
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Brawnfire posted:Do you think I LIKE making these choices? That I ENJOY knowing what we decide here today will lead to billions of deaths? No. I don't. But through a series of tortured contrivances, that is the only option the writers want to present as valid. 2/10, need to be sobbing uncontrollably while genociding as a modern Trek protagonist so we know it's really tearing you apart
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Oct 26, 2021 20:54
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HopperUK posted:Yeah, they don't seem to have actual culture, but it kinda feels like it was something taken away, rather than something they never had. Weyoun is wistful about art and music in a way that kind of implies to me it's something the Founders sliced out of them as unimportant. That's true, we never really get to see the Vorta on their own. We get a lot more of the Jem'Hadar, seeing what they can be like outside the Dominion's control, plus insight on them as people even within it. I think the way they interact with the main cast on the couple occasions they aren't fighting clearly shows they have a distinct culture and ethics. The Vorta come across more as mindless machines of the Founders IMO. I don't think that was intentional, it's just the only time we got to see a Vorta out of context was the defector Weyoun and that just didn't give us as much insight.
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Oct 26, 2021 21:20
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Grand Fromage posted:Borg's worse, easily. It's possible to negotiate with the Dominion, they're not just a thing running on automatic. The promise of the end of DS9 is Odo will be able to reform the Founders and create a better Dominion that people can live with peaceably. There's never any indication the Borg could change or wants to. Individual drones sure, but the collective as a whole?
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Oct 26, 2021 21:21
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BonHair posted:Unironically this. I always got the sense that, just like the Jem'Hadar were purpose built killing machines, the Vorta were purpose built talking machines. I don't get the sense that the Founders gave them their own culture, just loyalty and people skills and probably a lot of schooling. The Vorta have no ability to comprehend aesthetics so it seems the Founders not only didn't give them culture, they made them unable to have any. Or at least extremely difficult with a major part like that excised
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Oct 26, 2021 21:27
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Was Sisko right or wrong to fake that holotape?
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Oct 26, 2021 21:28
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Grand Fromage posted:Borg's worse, easily. It's possible to negotiate with the Dominion, they're not just a thing running on automatic. The promise of the end of DS9 is Odo will be able to reform the Founders and create a better Dominion that people can live with peaceably. There's never any indication the Borg could change or wants to. Individual drones sure, but the collective as a whole? Yeah, like in any other case Star Trek's liberal humanism makes sense and even the Founders, kind of asking for it as they were, didn't deserve to be annihilated. The Borg in-text are just an expectional case where for the sake of life everywhere, if you get a shot you should take it, no other situation in the show ever presents such an existiental threat to absolutely everyone and everything (well, except species 8472 I guess, but conidering how that plotline ended lets forget about that lol)
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Oct 26, 2021 21:31
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punishedkissinger posted:Was Sisko right or wrong to fake that holotape? Personally I think he was in the wrong, and I really would've liked to see him turn himself in for it after the war. It's one thing to make the morally incorrect call, knowing it's wrong but it's the only choice, but when he suffers no consequences for making it kind of rings hollow.
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Oct 26, 2021 21:37
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multijoe posted:Yeah, like in any other case Star Trek's liberal humanism makes sense and even the Founders, kind of asking for it as they were, didn't deserve to be annihilated. The Borg in-text are just an expectional case where for the sake of life everywhere, if you get a shot you should take it, no other situation in the show ever presents such an existiental threat to absolutely everyone and everything (well, except species 8472 I guess, but conidering how that plotline ended lets forget about that lol) The way they ejected so quickly on 8472 is one of the more baffling things from Voyager
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Oct 26, 2021 21:45
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Angry_Ed posted:The Vorta have no ability to comprehend aesthetics so it seems the Founders not only didn't give them culture, they made them unable to have any. Or at least extremely difficult with a major part like that excised Yeah it feels like a deliberate swipe, they've been just really viciously pared down to be what the Founders need and absolutely no more. That said, the way Weyoun talks, it sounds like he knows a good sentence from a bad one beyond functionality, so maybe they were left with some little vestiges of aesthetic sense. But I guess you don't want your all-purpose ambassador race to be all 'I tried negotiating with That One Species but they're *hideous* and I hate their carpets'. Better to just slice that out of them altogether
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Oct 26, 2021 21:47
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Angry_Ed posted:The Vorta have no ability to comprehend aesthetics so it seems the Founders not only didn't give them culture, they made them unable to have any. Or at least extremely difficult with a major part like that excised Could be just not being visual people. I don't think we see him having the opportunity to deal with music. He enjoyed Dabo though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1WIAZFYyfw Weyoun is also specifically a diplomat, so he's trained to be kinda generically positive and friendly about everything without necessarily offering any real criticism. There were a couple military commanders that showed up onscreen, and some scientists were referenced, but never showed up. It's possible that the Vorta have their own little cultures when they're not on duty for the founders, but it's also possible that they might have shallow existences and may have gone through enough genetic engineering and cloning that they can't exist without more cloning. I guess DS9's overarching narrative kinda comes at the expense of being able to introspectively examine the alien cultures involved in its narrative. There's no telling what life inside the Dominion is really like and the Breen remain mysterious and enigmatic.
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Oct 26, 2021 23:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:Could be just not being visual people. I don't think we see him having the opportunity to deal with music. He enjoyed Dabo though. When he's talking with Kira about Tora Ziyal's drawings, he mentions that he does have some envy of people who can "carry a tune", so I think the lack of aesthetics extends to music too It seems the most likely that the Vorta are purpose-created and bred to be the middle managers for the Founders, and they had any affinity for fellow Vorta or the ability to bond with each other over culture or food or shared interests specifically bred out of them to ensure that they'd feel lost without guidance and have nothing competing for the Founders' attention
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Oct 26, 2021 23:52
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FlamingLiberal posted:In fairness to Geordi, it's the computer's fault that Holo Brahms came onto him I felt really sorry for Geordi in that instance it isn't his fault AIs find him sexy
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Oct 27, 2021 01:15
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HELLO Geordi, you are QUITE GOOD at TURNING me ON
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Oct 27, 2021 02:12
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J33uk posted:The way they ejected so quickly on 8472 is one of the more baffling things from Voyager
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Oct 27, 2021 03:16
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah....I just passed the last episode where 8472 shows up and it makes it seem like they might show up again after that, but nope There is something mildly amusing though about their plot arc being wrapped up and the lingering threat they pose evaporating because Chakotay infiltrates an 8492 swingers party and sleeps with one of them, so they then decide not to invade the Alpha Quadrant.
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Oct 27, 2021 03:25
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nine-gear crow posted:There is something mildly amusing though about their plot arc being wrapped up and the lingering threat they pose evaporating because Chakotay infiltrates an 8492 swingers party and sleeps with one of them, so they then decide not to invade the Alpha Quadrant.
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Oct 27, 2021 03:34
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Eimi posted:The best solution is the Night Crew solution. Get one Borg to party all Borg will have to party. Just beam over only your most sloshed crew members. Totally agree. By far my favorite take. I wonder if Night Crew's Kobayashi Maru is a no-score scenario...
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Oct 27, 2021 03:55
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nine-gear crow posted:There is something mildly amusing though about their plot arc being wrapped up and the lingering threat they pose evaporating because Chakotay infiltrates an 8492 swingers party and sleeps with one of them, so they then decide not to invade the Alpha Quadrant. Well they had to move on to bigger and better adversaries- the Hirogen
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Oct 27, 2021 05:02
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:Well they had to move on to bigger and better adversaries- the Hirogen The Hirogen were a cool concept, just undercooked like all things Voyager. I wish they kept to the premise they started with in Hunters where the Hirogen looked like they were all 8 foot tall monsters who could just pick you up and toss your rear end clear across a room. And then they were just normal, slightly tall dudes depending on the guest actor for the rest of the show 
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Oct 27, 2021 06:19
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