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Different Norton https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/the-collapse-of-norton-motorcycles
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Oct 27, 2021 20:38
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Had my first 40+ minute ride on the DRZ. It was good. Really good. Really FUN. Buzzy single cylinder but I think it did really well. Just need to get used to the feel. Ironically still less buzzy than my Ninja 650. It was almost perfect, but I noticed something that I’m going to describe, hopefully you can help me understand where to start looking. I have a lovely amazon tach on so I’m not going to quote these RPM values as gospel, but only to compare a “normal” and “unusual” idle. When I started my bike earlier it idled roughly, let’s say 1800. I rode it for a bit and it seemed to respond pretty much how I expected it would. Then on the ride home I noticed a few times that when I pulled up to a red light or stop the bike would idle +1000RPM higher than I expected. When I turned the throttle go go it would rev down to the ~1800 I expected and dutifully rev up as I turned the throttle. Clutch in in 1st, cluch out in neutral, didn’t seem to make a difference. Near the end of the ride it seemed to do that pretty consistently. Other than that no problems to report. It didn’t seem to surge or rev uncontrollably in any way after that. So I’m curious if this behaviour leads you guys to suggest anything as a starting point? Weather permitting tomorrow I’m going to double check the play in my throttle cables, make sure both are actuating the butterfly as expected.
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Oct 28, 2021 01:05
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Martytoof posted:Had my first 40+ minute ride on the DRZ. It was good. Really good. Really FUN. Buzzy single cylinder but I think it did really well. Just need to get used to the feel. Ironically still less buzzy than my Ninja 650. That’s a hanging idle. If you can safely rule out throttle cables or something else keeping the throttle from closing all the way, then it’s usually a symptom of a lean pilot circuit. The fact that it shows up after the engine warms up is a good indicator of that. As I recall, the solution is to get it up to temp, let the idle hang, and turn the pilot air screw in (richening the mixture) until idle drops.
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Oct 28, 2021 01:28
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:As I recall, the solution is to get it up to temp, let the idle hang, and turn the pilot air screw in (richening the mixture) until idle drops. I found this idle drop procedure video useful when I was last messing with carbs, and what ended up being a lean running condition. https://youtu.be/AKjZ_jCw3cM epswing fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Oct 28, 2021 |
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Oct 28, 2021 01:36
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I’m not sure how stupid people like me did anything on bikes before the internet. Thanks friends, I’ll investigate soon. Honestly the fact that I have handguards on this bike makes me think I can probably ride it a bit longer this year.
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Oct 28, 2021 01:45
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:As I recall, the solution is to get it up to temp, let the idle hang, and turn the pilot air screw in (richening the mixture) until idle drops. out, not in. Only on two strokes does turning the pilot screw in richen the mixture.
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Oct 28, 2021 01:49
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Martytoof posted:I’m not sure how stupid people like me did anything on bikes before the internet. Hey man, you're asking good questions and following the advice of experts. You may just be the smartest dumb guy out there!
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Oct 28, 2021 01:54
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Martytoof posted:I’m not sure how stupid people like me did anything on bikes before the internet. When I owned my last drz, I worked pretty close to home, so I rode to work basically until there was ice on the ground. I called the first day every year that I had to use my bar mitts my “bar mittsvah”.  It’s almost like you could tell I’d eventually end up on a dadbike Beve Stuscemi fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Oct 28, 2021 |
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Oct 28, 2021 02:02
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:out, not in. Only on two strokes does turning the pilot screw in richen the mixture.  thanks. I always have to look it up and this time I didn’t.
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Oct 28, 2021 02:24
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Martytoof posted:I’m not sure how stupid people like me did anything on bikes before the internet. Some decent answers as always, but it's best to look at this in context of what you did before: Martytoof posted:I actually pulled the Carb today to just give it a general clean. Pilot jet is 25 and main jet is 155 per the JD kit instructions so I think that’s good. Still have to verify needle but I suspect it’s fine too. Martytoof posted:GUYS I am so loving HYPE right now You turned the pilot screw 50% leaner and it ran better until it got hot, then you got the classic lean idle. But to avoid this you need an exorbitant number of pilot turns that make it idle like poo poo instead. This means you either have too small a pilot jet, too cavernous a hole in your airbox/exhaust, or something mechanically wrong like a vacuum leak, clogged pilot jet, cracked manifold, etc
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Oct 28, 2021 02:38
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Hmm yeah, that is very true. I can try to remove the manifold and inspect it. The whole pipe is basically rusted together so I’m not really sure how I’ll accomplish that unless I can fish it out. Before that I guess I can try to just tape up the airbox a little at a time and see if it improves. I was very confident in working on the carb but I’m not at all confident that I know enough to do something like understand what jet I should be swapping pilot out with. Is hanging idle actually dangerous or just undesirable? The fact that the engine needs to be warm means that, despite my earlier statement that I’ll ride the bike longer, realistically time is kind of running out unless I want to leave it running in my shed and kill myself with monox. If I can ride it out for another half month and worry about it in the spring I’ll probably just do that.
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Oct 28, 2021 02:47
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It isn't good for your engine to run excessively lean. The fuel in the intake charge absorbs some heat from the cylinder as it vaporizes, so if you're running lean you will be running hot. A lean idle probably isn't going to cause permanent damage, but it's not great. If you're running excessively lean throughout the whole throttle/RPM range, you will melt a hole in your piston. As noted, what you want to do is get the engine warmed up until it hangs, turn the pilot screw until you get the highest idle, then turn it back rich until it drops a couple hundred RPM. That is the right mixture for performance and safety. In airplanes you do this all the time manually because the air density is always changing. Generally you do it with the assistance of an exhaust gas temperature gauge -- lean until the value is maxed out, then richen until you've dropped 50 degrees from there, and you're set. Exactly the same concept as tuning a motorcycle carb. If you haven't got an EGT gauge, you just lean until the engine starts to chug then go about a turn and a half in from there 
Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Oct 28, 2021 |
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Oct 28, 2021 03:14
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Random question about heated grips. I have a 2013 F800 GS that I'm replacing the grips on. It has factory heated grips, which are a wire filament that goes around a plastic 'sub grip'/ isolator on the bar. The type of heated grip I'm familiar with from snowmobiles is the sticky pad that looks like a circuit board, and is isolated from the bar by a cork pad. I've seen that some BMWs come with this type. Is one better than the other? I'm just trying to figure out if I should swap them now, while I'm in there, or whether I just replace the grip.
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Oct 28, 2021 05:34
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Martytoof posted:Hmm yeah, that is very true. Lean is bad. I think the right solution is a #30 pilot jet, set the screw at 2.5 and tune from there. You can approximate this by making the airbox hole smaller.
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Oct 28, 2021 05:41
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Understood. I’ll block off the airbox back to OEM first and if that doesn’t work I’ll resign myself to looking at it in the spring. Thanks! I ordered a non-amazon extended mix adjust screw so I’ll try idle drop if that arrives in time for the bike to still be on the road. If not, my plan was to pull the carb and get a rebuild kit in the offseason anyway since the oring gasket looked a little dingy and dry. I wonder if it’s worth the effort to just go back to stock jetting at this point for a known quantity. I think I still have all the OEM parts in the jet kit box, and if not it looks like the rebuild kit includes the jets and needle too. The ship has sailed on cutting the airbox but that’s not a problem I can’t solve with the side of a milk jug, scissors, and some electrical tape. I’m not in any rush to replace the pipe though — other than looking ratty I’m not looking for a reason to spend bucks just to go to back to OEM can. some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Oct 28, 2021 |
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Oct 28, 2021 13:11
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Completely separate question. Is it possible to tap a signal to/from a DRZ CDI to logic out true RPM? CDI does ignition timing adjust but it would should still get a signal from the stator and fire every X pulses, right? I’ve been noodling a DIY dashboard replacement as a fun electronics project in a horrible attempt to mimic the one posted in CA by someone who I now realize I can’t remember. I got a cool wheel speed cable sensor adapter and it’s reading properly, I figured out how to do the cool math to get actual ground speed, and it’s all working in an ESP32 on a breadboard but now I kind of want to tap into something that isn’t just wrapping the plug wire. One of these days I’ll pull the scope out to the shed and tap some wires to see what’s going on, just want to logic it out. Yes I know it’s probably impractical and wire wrap is how everyone else does it, probably for a reason, just humour me 
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Oct 28, 2021 13:20
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Martytoof posted:Completely separate question. Is it possible to tap a signal to/from a DRZ CDI to logic out true RPM? CDI does ignition timing adjust but it would should still get a signal from the stator and fire every X pulses, right? You mean sagebrush’s for the hawk?
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Oct 28, 2021 17:07
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builds character posted:You mean sagebrush’s for the hawk? Yesssss! That's the beans. I can't believe I forgot whose it was  E: Thinking about inspecting my exhaust. The muffler is held to the midpipe with springs but even without the springs it appears to be inseparable. I’ve tried to cam the pipe around, to yank it backwards, rattle it a little, it isn’t budging. Suppose it could be RTV’d or cemented in place. Is there anything I can do to try to remove it, or is this just a “well lol” situation? I’m not sure anyone can answer since I don’t actually know why it’s not moving, but eh. I haven’t checked the midpipe to header connection but I presume it’s similarly seized in place. I can remove the header but then presumably have no way to pull it off the bike without sawing the whole pipe in half. some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Oct 28, 2021 |
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Oct 28, 2021 17:23
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Martytoof posted:Understood. I’ll block off the airbox back to OEM first and if that doesn’t work I’ll resign myself to looking at it in the spring. Thanks! Factory jets, block off the airbox holes, start from the beginning is the best way. Martytoof posted:Completely separate question. Is it possible to tap a signal to/from a DRZ CDI to logic out true RPM? CDI does ignition timing adjust but it would should still get a signal from the stator and fire every X pulses, right? Just use the signal wire that goes to the coil, it's how a lot of factory and aftermarket tachos work. Wrapping the plug lead is one of those grubby dirt bike things you don't really see elsewhere. The timing advance has no relevance to any of this. The cdi itself might also have an unused tacho feed pin.
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Oct 28, 2021 18:41
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:out, not in. Only on two strokes does turning the pilot screw in richen the mixture.
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Oct 31, 2021 16:53
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A little sand in there keeps the cylinder bore fresh
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Oct 31, 2021 19:45
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Not strictly true, some old (1960s and earlier) Bings and maybe Amals have mixture screws that allow air in as you open them up. On the Bings of 1955-69, the screw lets in unfiltered air from around the screw itself. Cause why not? Afaik the trick to identifying which is which is that fuel screws tend to be all over the place but air screws are always on the side of the bellmouth, while fuel screws never are.
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Oct 31, 2021 19:56
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Dropped the bike and the mirror sheared off right below the top of the threads. Is an extractor bit the right place to start or is there something I should attempt first?
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Nov 1, 2021 00:52
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Ninja 650 gave all the signs of a dead battery (lights on but click-click-click) when I tried to crank it after sitting for 4 or 5 weeks, but when I put it on the battery tender it went to “full” almost immediately. It gave one or two clicks but fired up on the third try while on the tender. This is the OEM battery from 2018. Is there a chance it’s just done? Not sure how I’d go troubleshooting it. Not optimistic about it surviving the winter if it is bad.
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Nov 1, 2021 01:00
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Martytoof posted:Ninja 650 gave all the signs of a dead battery (lights on but click-click-click) when I tried to crank it after sitting for 4 or 5 weeks, but when I put it on the battery tender it went to “full” almost immediately. It gave one or two clicks but fired up on the third try while on the tender. You test that with a load tester. The charger looks at voltage to judge the charge level, but the battery has aged so a fair percentage of the plate surface area is now dead. So it's still a 12v battery but a much smaller one, with much less capacity. Imagine starting a 650 with a battery for a 50cc, the results will basically be one or two cranks and it's exhausted. Also don't recommend starting while it's on the charger because the starter is a massive ~100A draw and it can't be good to attach that to a digital device that's capable of 4A at most.
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Nov 1, 2021 01:14
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Good advice, thanks. I didn’t think through starting it on the charger so I’ll cut that out. Pretty sure I did that with the DRZ a LOT the last few months so might have left that poor charger wishing for death.
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Nov 1, 2021 01:19
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ought ten posted:Dropped the bike and the mirror sheared off right below the top of the threads. Is an extractor bit the right place to start or is there something I should attempt first? Yeah, I'd just drill it and use a screw extractor. I like this kind: https://www.amazon.com/Damaged-Extractor-Stripped-Easily-Quickly/dp/B09FY3FHQH/ I can't speak to that particular brand, but that style has worked best for me. One end drills out the screw head to a profile that mates with the extractor on the other end. Buy a center punch as well, to get the drill part started, if you haven't already got one. Turn the extractor part very slowly with strong downward pressure.
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Nov 1, 2021 01:25
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Slavvy posted:Afaik the trick to identifying which is which is that fuel screws tend to be all over the place but air screws are always on the side of the bellmouth, while fuel screws never are.
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Nov 1, 2021 01:35
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Well, again, that's not strictly true if you go back far enough in time. The Bings I referenced have the mixture screw on the engine-side of the slide, but they're "air" screws. In that if you screw them out, they let more air in. Opposite of almost all Keihin/Mikuni/Hitachi/whatevers of the modern era. We think of the "fuel screw"/"air screw" as being the obvious two distinctions but there's other (dumb) ways to design the things. Yeah I know. Basically all rules of thumb have a cutoff date if you go back far enough. I will never, ever get over the Norton idea of having choke on be slack cable, choke off being cables under tension. So you have to pull the choke open and the failure mode is choke on full. So fucken stupid and they would've known it was stupid at the time but they still built it 
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Nov 1, 2021 01:43
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If you think that's bad, I just rode across the country on a Binks carburetor design from the 20s which has a round slide which is split vertically down the middle and each half is operated by a handlebar lever. One half of the slide is referred to as "air" and one is referred to as "throttle".
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Nov 1, 2021 05:53
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Slavvy posted:You test that with a load tester. The charger looks at voltage to judge the charge level, but the battery has aged so a fair percentage of the plate surface area is now dead. So it's still a 12v battery but a much smaller one, with much less capacity. Imagine starting a 650 with a battery for a 50cc, the results will basically be one or two cranks and it's exhausted. Any microcontroller-based charger shouldn't mind it though, as they have appropriate protective circuitry. It will just not really do anything when you start cranking.
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Nov 1, 2021 07:56
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Sagebrush posted:Yeah, I'd just drill it and use a screw extractor. I like this kind: https://www.amazon.com/Damaged-Extractor-Stripped-Easily-Quickly/dp/B09FY3FHQH/ I can't speak to that particular brand, but that style has worked best for me. One end drills out the screw head to a profile that mates with the extractor on the other end. The easiest tool to use for that second part is the t-wrench from a tap and die set, especially as the one thing you definitely don't want to do with those ultra-hard bits is put even the tiniest amount of sideways force on them.
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Nov 1, 2021 09:29
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SEKCobra posted:Any microcontroller-based charger shouldn't mind it though, as they have appropriate protective circuitry. It will just not really do anything when you start cranking. On the one side, this is correct and all chargers (including old buzz boxes) have some form of current limiting. On the other hand, a starter motor is a massive inductive load that causes big voltage spikes when you let go of the starter button. This usually doesn't, but can conceivably damage a charger. I've done it with old skool chargers without issues, but YMMV. I did gently caress up a CB radio power supply once by backfeeding it some voltage from another source.
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Nov 1, 2021 09:38
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:If you think that's bad, I just rode across the country on a Binks carburetor design from the 20s which has a round slide which is split vertically down the middle and each half is operated by a handlebar lever. One half of the slide is referred to as "air" and one is referred to as "throttle". I wonder who was the first one to really nail the modern carburetor design? It must have been a big deal because the entire industry basically said “yep, that’s the one” some time around the (I’m guessing) mid 1960’s or so and went forward with it. There were of course advancements like constant velocity carbs and accelerator pumps, better machining, jet shapes and whatnot, but in general if you’re working on a bike from 1970 or later, you know what you’re gonna get, carb-wise, minus Yamaha and their goofy “dual carb on a thumper” design.
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Nov 1, 2021 13:18
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I wonder who was the first one to really nail the modern carburetor design? Sadly and shamefully the first 'modern' carb was the amal concentric, they were the first to think about putting the bowl around the main jet instead of somewhere off in the scenery, connected by a tube. Mid 60's. Except I'm pretty sure a lot of Harleys and other American bikes had concentric float bowls much earlier, like in the thirties, but the pure and glorious sport of gentlemen ignores this uncomfortable history because it's embarrassing to think high level GP bikes were getting fuel surge from awful carb design while grubby colonials were effortlessly bouncing up dirt hills on a steady throttle.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:45
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I haven't dicked with them much myself but the 20s?-50s Linkert type carburetors are purported to be pretty good. On the Cannonball there was a guy with one of them bolted onto his BMW R52 and he said it was a huge improvement. They're not modern at all but they're very simple and adjustable and reliable I've heard. It's just a butterfly with a couple needle valves like a boat motor, and I think a concentric float.
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Nov 2, 2021 02:12
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LimaBiker posted:On the one side, this is correct and all chargers (including old buzz boxes) have some form of current limiting. That's why I limited it to modern microcontroller models, the way (most of) those work they are inherently protected against this because of their working principle. Obviously, I'm not gonna be liable for damage and actually disconnecting something will always be safer than any type of lightning protection.
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Nov 2, 2021 11:47
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I haven't dicked with them much myself but the 20s?-50s Linkert type carburetors are purported to be pretty good. On the Cannonball there was a guy with one of them bolted onto his BMW R52 and he said it was a huge improvement. They're not modern at all but they're very simple and adjustable and reliable I've heard. It's just a butterfly with a couple needle valves like a boat motor, and I think a concentric float. I've seen a couple up close and yeah, they're like a prehistoric ancestor to those awful s&s super-e/g things that morons put on Harleys. Fixed orifice like a car, but with a concentric bowl. Work perfectly well on engines with a limited rpm spread, I'm not surprised they're suited to old boxers, nor that they're an improvement over those horrific SU's or whatever they are.
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Nov 2, 2021 20:56
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Uh so maybe this was answered when I brought up the dry sump thing before but now that I"m staring at an oil-less engine I'm not exactly sure I still understand: The DRZ stores oil in the frame, and the motor runs the oil pump to start movement. How does this work when I drain the oil and re-fill the frame, when I first crank the engine is it essentially dry and that's just ok because it'll be splashing oil shortly and there's probably some residual lubrication unless it's been sitting dry for days? I mean I'm sure it's fine because people do oil changes and crack engines open all the time and bikes don't explode on the reg, I just don't really think I know WHY it's fine.
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Nov 3, 2021 01:58
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when is this bike supposed to make you a better rider if it's spending all its time splaying its guts across your garage
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Nov 3, 2021 02:15
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