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Radirot posted:what needs to happen to change that? is there even an answer to that? At one time "The Dems" brought The New Deal and The Great Society programs. So I don't think it's simply the "Democratic Party" label that is so fatal. Officials operating under that label have done decent things, brought real changes to lots and lots of people. But it's really not that party anymore. I had long operated under the belief we could capture the party via the primary process and make it help people again, but the India Walton thing has my really shaken and angry. I guess Murkowski's write in win ten thousand years ago didn't prevent the tea party/trumpist/outward lunatic takeover of her party, so a single instance of this isn't the end. But holy poo poo it's bad, IMO.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:04
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What happened in Virginia sucks pretty bad but Buffalo is some real bullshit
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Nov 3, 2021 06:05
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Hellblazer187 posted:Is there an age breakdown on the procop/anticop voters? I don't know anyone under 45 who doesn't say poo poo like ACAB or whatever. But I guess I don't know that many people. For Minneapolis, there was some various police-related questions that gave an age breakdown on a recent poll before the election. It seemed to vary when it came down to age breakdown for all voters vs Black voters. I would recommend looking through all of these to get an idea. For example, one question was asking about reducing the number of police officers. When it came to all voters, ~33% stated should for those under 50 vs ~23.5% stated should for those 50+ (estimate was from me, since all voters gave a more detailed age breakdown). However, when it came to Black voters, 13% stated should for those under 50 vs 16% stated should for those 50+. It gets a little more nuanced than that because of those who stated not sure, but it's still a stark contrast. Kalit fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:07
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India Walton has nobody to blame but herself: https://twitter.com/thehousered/sta...ingawful.com%2F If leftism/progressivism is going to succeed we have to actually be different from what we're trying to replace instead of being duplicitous and pissing off our allies.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:08
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^^ I bet she got some dem lanyard attached to her campaign after the primary who coached her on how to triangulate to be more party friendly and appease the Brown faction. lol. literally never trust the party on anything. they exist to destroy progressHellblazer187 posted:At one time "The Dems" brought The New Deal and The Great Society programs. So I don't think it's simply the "Democratic Party" label that is so fatal. Officials operating under that label have done decent things, brought real changes to lots and lots of people. The democrats were taken over by an internal faction way back in the 80s. The Clintons, Gore, Biden, even Obama all affiliated with the centrist third way New Democrats, and the current state of the party is directly attributable to them. Whatever the democrats were during LBJ or FDR's day, they are now firmly the party of Clinton and will be until the icy grip of death takes the current batch of dem leadership Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:11
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Hellblazer187 posted:At one time "The Dems" brought The New Deal and The Great Society programs. So I don't think it's simply the "Democratic Party" label that is so fatal. Officials operating under that label have done decent things, brought real changes to lots and lots of people. I contend that Bill Clinton was the single most destructive President in our lifetimes in the long run: he destroyed the New Deal Great Society Democrat party and made it New Coke of the GOP to chase votes. His actions and the failures of Third Way Liberalism lead to all this poo poo TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:12
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Nix Panicus posted:The democrats were taken over by an internal faction way back in the 80s. The Clintons, Gore, Biden, even Obama all affiliated with the centrist third way New Democrats, and the current state of the party is directly attributable to them. Whatever the democrats were during LBJ or FDR's day, they are now firmly the party of Clinton and will be until the icy grip of death takes the current batch of dem leadership Yeah... but they're all 80 so that might be kinda soon. I am pretty afraid of Republicans gutting voting rights in the meantime. TulliusCicero posted:I comtend that Bill Clinton was the single most destructive President in our lifetimes in the long run: he destroyed the New Deal Great Society Democrat party and made it New Coke of the GOP to chase votes. His actions and the failures of Third Way Liberalism lead to all this poo poo Clinton sucks. I still think Reagan was the worst in our lifetimes (assuming you're as old as me at least). You don't get a Clinton winning the primary until you've had 12 years of GOP holding the White House and Reagan changing the zeitgeist. But yes, I agree that Clinton's triangulation, after 12 years of Reagan/Bush, fundamentally destroyed the "actually sometimes kinda good" portion of the Democratic party. Edit: Killer robot posted:^^^^ Don't leave out the two massive Nixon victories that cemented the Southern Strategy and set the stage for Reagan. In 1992 a lot of the country just assumed Carter was a Watergate-induced blip on a permanent Republican White House, plus Democratic congressional majorities meant a lot less with a lot of them still not even moderates but full-on conservatives. Yeah, that too. Clinton winning two in a row for the first time since in like 30 years really broke the party. Nixon was not in my lifetime, but yes he was awful. Hellblazer187 fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:16
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^^^^ Don't leave out the two massive Nixon victories that cemented the Southern Strategy and set the stage for Reagan. In 1992 a lot of the country just assumed Carter was a Watergate-induced blip on a permanent Republican White House, plus Democratic congressional majorities meant a lot less with a lot of them still not even moderates but full-on conservatives.Angry_Ed posted:India Walton has nobody to blame but herself: I wasn't following the election closely since I'm not actually in Buffalo but I was excited on the assumption that she was going to win so this was a real bummer. And the thing is, she still easily could have if she'd really driven turnout and excited voters: turnout was low and there was a lot of slack. It looks like she didn't. Really if she was just making a lot of bad decisions in her campaign that's at least something other candidates on the left can learn from. Killer robot fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:16
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Sanguinia posted:I'm not going to lie, this seems like a really thin argument to me. Like, would the people of Virginia not KNOW that their Democratic Trifect Government is responsible for all the good things that happened without needing it to be trumpeted if the refrain is always that voters will respond to material improvements? I mean if this is what you think what was the point of any of his campaign, do Virginians not know who Trump was?
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Nov 3, 2021 06:17
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ellasmith posted:democrats are loving retards lmfao Bill Clinton narrowly won an election 29 years ago by co-opting the Republican platform, and the party drank the kool-aid. Now the gerontocracy leading the party has no new ideas because the Republicans don't have a platform to co-opt.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:17
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The Mattybee posted:It is possible to think the Democrats are not doing enough while also thinking it's hosed up to celebrate their loss when you know that it will materially make other people's lives worse. It seems weird that you're deflecting this to complaining about liberals! you're right to a point. maybe dems in other states can have more of a difference than here in ny, where republicans are good at mirroring the liberal platform of dems to succeed better in elections, yet both still support abhorrent policies or budgets that perpetuate declining conditions. Killer robot posted:I wasn't following the election closely since I'm not actually in Buffalo but I was excited on the assumption that she was going to win so this was a real bummer. And the thing is, she still easily could have if she'd really driven turnout and excited voters: turnout was low and there was a lot of slack. It looks like she didn't. Really if she was just making a lot of bad decisions in her campaign that's at least something other candidates on the left can learn from. very true. im in the city over but my choices were even less motivating. RadiRoot fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:21
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Angry_Ed posted:India Walton has nobody to blame but herself:
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Nov 3, 2021 06:23
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Nix Panicus posted:^^ I bet she got some dem lanyard attached to her campaign after the primary who coached her on how to triangulate to be more party friendly and appease the Brown faction. lol. literally never trust the party on anything. they exist to destroy progress It’s really something that you’re convinced women of color have no agency of their own. Calling her a puppet just to make sick burns against “the libs” is really loving gross. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 3, 2021 06:42
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Neurolimal posted:In short: Has anyone in this thread considered that maybe people as a whole don't want the things delivered in this tweet (minus legal cannabis, everybody under 45 wants that)? That the Democrats in Virginia lost in part because they delivered those things? That Trump as a whole delivered many of the things Virginia voters want, but did so in a way that was too offensive and declasse? You can't blame the electoral college or demographic grouping for this - a segment of land had a vote for a person and chose one over the other. As a Seattleite in a fairly well off neighborhood, let me tell you first hand that all of our neighbors, with Black Lives Matters and In This House... signs spread throughout their yards, voted for a Republican (who switched to that party only after Trump was elected) for Seattle City Attorney, even though the Dem was a public defender, because the Dem has some aggressive tweets about defunding the police in her history. We're also going to elect Bruce Harrell as mayor, a Dem so corporatist and pro-police state it would make Pete Buttigieg blush, because we would rather have homeless people punted to poorer parts of town rather than consider what we might do to give them an alternative to their current situation. It's taken as an article of religious faith in this thread that doing good things (as defined by basically everyone here, including me) for people will result in future electoral success. What if it doesn't? What if Americans don't want that? What the gently caress then? There are many unknowns, but one thing I can guarantee you is that the outcome of the 2024 Presidential/Senate/House elections doesn't directly depend on what happens with the infrastructure bill(s). There's currently a greater than 50% chance Trump wins, and if people still feel bad about things in 2024, it will go up to a 90% chance.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:44
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Yeah I'm sure voters in VA were just steaming mad, wishing they could pay more for insulin.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:47
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I'm in Seattle and I'm getting drunk on a Tuesday because everything sucks and I loving hate it and we literally traded lives for police reform here, people I know including myself have been injured or worse during the protests last year and when we established CHOP. My friend summer was killed protesting against cop violence and we reward their sacrifice by electing the pro cops and pro homeless camp sweeps guy to be mayor. If we can't do it here then I don't believe we can do it anywhere so gently caress it, now I drink. I did my best 🤷♂️
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Nov 3, 2021 06:47
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Solkanar512 posted:It’s really something that you’re convinced women of color have no agency of their own. Calling her a puppet just to make sick burns against “the libs” is really loving gross. This is some real bullshit reframing of what they actually said and you know it.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:48
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pthighs posted:It's taken as an article of religious faith in this thread that doing good things (as defined by basically everyone here, including me) for people will result in future electoral success. What if it doesn't? What if Americans don't want that? What the gently caress then? If doing good things doesn't help, then we're hosed anyway, so the only thing that makes sense to do is assume it does help and do them
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Nov 3, 2021 06:50
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Fister Roboto posted:This is some real bullshit reframing of what they actually said and you know it. Claiming that she only lost because a “dem lanyard fooled her” makes it pretty clear that Nix doesn’t believe that Brown is calling her own shots. They even say that the party itself is to blame. Blame lies with the person or group in change, and Nix clearly doesn’t believe it’s Brown. If you don’t like it, take it up with Nix.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:53
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pthighs posted:Has anyone in this thread considered that maybe people as a whole don't want the things delivered in this tweet (minus legal cannabis, everybody under 45 wants that)? That the Democrats in Virginia lost in part because they delivered those things? That Trump as a whole delivered many of the things Virginia voters want, but did so in a way that was too offensive and declasse? You can't blame the electoral college or demographic grouping for this - a segment of land had a vote for a person and chose one over the other. If there's any takeaway I've come away from this with it's this : keeping trump in the corner like a monkey you occasionally go pet while trying to portray yourself as a moderate is what gets independents and moderate voters horny. You bring the orange pig back into the pen it's a different story. Youngin practically beat trump away with a stick in public while privately sweet talking him up. Bringing him back into the public eye is not a winning strategy long term. Flopsy fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:54
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Hellblazer187 posted:Yeah I'm sure voters in VA were just steaming mad, wishing they could pay more for insulin. Many people who do not need insulin could in fact be steaming mad that someone they do not know is paying less for it. edit: Lemming posted:If doing good things doesn't help, then we're hosed anyway, so the only thing that makes sense to do is assume it does help and do them To be exceedingly clear, I'm not in any way suggesting people shouldn't be doing good things when they get power. I'm just saying it's time to acknowledge the fact that, at least in the short term, doing so may hurt you electorally more so than help you. As has been referenced many times in these threads, the gay marriage debate may be a good analogue for the Defund the Police movement. The pro-gay marriage movement cost votes at the beginning, rather than gained votes, even if it was always the right thing to do and won out in the end. pthighs fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:54
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Solkanar512 posted:Claiming that she only lost because a “dem lanyard fooled her” makes it pretty clear that Nix doesn’t believe that Brown is calling her own shots. They even say that the party itself is to blame. Blame lies with the person or group in change, and Nix clearly doesn’t believe it’s Brown. No, it sounds like you're twisting someone else's words to imply that they're racist in order to win an argument. Like maybe it's kind of a dodge to say that it was her campaign staff's fault that she lost, but it is absolutely not the same as claiming she has no agency. Or claiming that women of color have no agency. That's all poo poo you just made up. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 07:04
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10% of Virginia has diabetes, and quite a few are at risk of it. https://cnu.edu/wasoncenter/surveys/archive/2021-02-02.html 56% supported repealing the death penalty, 68% supported weed legalization. General support for progress on the majority of subjects. Terry beefed it. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 07:07
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Damnit my local school board flipped to the conservative majority. Betting this election turned on parents. That’s who the crazies are targeting.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:09
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Betting this election turned on parents. That’s who the crazies are targeting. People like me who poison their minds following conspiracy theories have been warning that we're dealing with Satantic Panic levels of moral panic targeting suburban parents  .
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Nov 3, 2021 07:15
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Hellblazer187 posted:Yeah I'm sure voters in VA were just steaming mad, wishing they could pay more for insulin. Fixing insulin prices is an overall good. But to the millions of Virginians without diabetes, it had no impact on their lives.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:16
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Angry_Ed posted:India Walton has nobody to blame but herself: The only exposure I had to Walton was a softball interview on Chapo Trap House where she completely sucked, just completely unable to articulate a positive vision for her campaign and uninformed on big issues, such that the interview was actually awkward to listen to Now starting the clock for someone to quote me with a "wow are you really calling a WOC inarticulate?"
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Nov 3, 2021 07:20
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:People like me who poison their minds following conspiracy theories have been warning that we're dealing with Satantic Panic levels of moral panic targeting suburban parents It’s stunned me a couple of times in the last year to have been targeted as a parent. Who got most hosed by the pandemic? Parents with 3-10 year old kids.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:21
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Zeron posted:Sure the Dems deserve to lose because they're poo poo. The rest of us don't deserve the very real harm that happens when they do lose though. Cheering at the fascists winning is an odd, but apparently very popular, look for sure. It's mostly to own the libs. I think a lot of it also comes from folks without skin in the game. I'm trans. In my lifetime there has been one party that has moved the needle on trans issues at all, and one that struggles to do the opposite. Watching people cheer the GOP winning elections makes me think that it's just a sports team to them, and it's fun to watch the rivals lose. Shageletic posted:Going thru it and it doesn't seem that spectacular to me Totally. Time to vote Republican and give them a chance. That'll teach the Dems to go further next time! I know the thread consensus seems to be that if only the Democrats were further left they'd do better electorally, but I have a hard time jiving that with what actually happens in elections. Americans being, by an large, quite conservative is a better explanation. The two major parties are milquetoast centrists for the most part on one hand, and nativists on the other, and the natavists continue to win elections. I think the US has a cultural problem. American culture devalues education and expertise. Until that changes, and "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge" stops ringing so true, I don't think we get out of this hole.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:22
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DeadlyMuffin posted:It's mostly to own the libs. I think a lot of it also comes from folks without skin in the game. The biggest question is 'how do we get there?', and until someone can articulate a decent way to do that, we are just spinning our wheels until the whole thing collapses.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:27
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https://twitter.com/Taniel/status/1455747183605649413 Here's a tiny bright spot tonight: Tuscon went "Fine, we'll do it ourselves" and told Kyrsten Sinema to gently caress off and gave themselves the $15 minimum wage that she robbed them of with her cutesy hip jiggle and thumbs down. This woman is hosed come 2024 regardless of whatever way the US goes politically (spoilers: it's gonna be towards fascism  )
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Nov 3, 2021 07:30
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pthighs posted:It's taken as an article of religious faith in this thread that doing good things (as defined by basically everyone here, including me) for people will result in future electoral success. What if it doesn't? What if Americans don't want that? What the gently caress then? You said it better than I did. J.A.B.C. posted:The biggest question is 'how do we get there?', and until someone can articulate a decent way to do that, we are just spinning our wheels until the whole thing collapses. All I can think of is to emphasize the value of education, to lower the barriers as much as possible, and improve the quality.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:33
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The "I'm not Trump" approach isn't going to work in 2024 when the people of America decide they kinda like that Trump guy. It's going to a be long 3 years.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:36
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J.A.B.C. posted:The biggest question is 'how do we get there?', and until someone can articulate a decent way to do that, we are just spinning our wheels until the whole thing collapses. I think of how World War I basically broke the back of monarchic rule as the main norm by having the new developments of war crash headlong into the old ways nations worked. I sadly suspect it will take the same thing. Tens of, if not hundreds of millions of corpses. Cornwind Evil fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 07:37
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Peter Daou Zen posted:The "I'm not Trump" approach isn't going to work in 2024 when the people of America decide they kinda like that Trump guy. It's going to a be long 3 years. No it won't, midterms are just around the corner and then it will be a dizzying blur leading straight to Trump's re-inauguration
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Nov 3, 2021 07:40
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Is Murphy going to pull this out?
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Nov 3, 2021 07:48
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Failed Imagineer posted:No it won't, midterms are just around the corner and then it will be a dizzying blur leading straight to Trump's re-inauguration We always talked about kicking the can down the road in America. I think Trump 2024 is the end of the line.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:50
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VitalSigns posted:Yea it's the standard strategy right. The full blown Corbyn treatment. Won't be surprised to see the Democrat party completely self-destruct within our lifetimes and hand power to the GOP permanently rather than let anyone who gives even lip service to leftist ideas win.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:56
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davecrazy posted:Is Murphy going to pull this out? Looking like it.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:58
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davecrazy posted:Is Murphy going to pull this out? The outstanding votes are apparently mostly mail in votes, so Murphy is probably fine
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Nov 3, 2021 07:58
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