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Majorian posted:Those things, plus "actually run on how you have made your prospective voters' lives better in the past and how you intend to continue to do so once (re)elected." But I'm glad you said that second part also, because it's something leftists have been warning would happen for several years now, and always faced a weird amount of pushback. It's great that the whole Panera Bread strategy yielded returns in 2018 and 2020, but it's pretty obviously not sustainable. The reason the suburbs became steadily more democratic was that the suburbs were steadily becoming more college educated and more non-white. The Democrats went there for votes because that's where their voters are. The pushback comes from the implication that if you're not going to the suburbs for votes, you need to fight the Republicans for the white, rural, uneducated vote, and many people, including myself, don't believe that's a winnable fight because of American racism. I know good old Uncle Karl says that race is just another tool of the capital class to divide the workers, but good luck beating that tool. I mean, it'd be super nice if I was wrong, I just don't see how its possible.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:34
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Sanguinia posted:The reason the suburbs became steadily more democratic was that the suburbs were steadily becoming more college educated and more non-white. The Democrats went there for votes because that's where their voters are. The pushback comes from the implication that if you're not going to the suburbs for votes, you need to fight the Republicans for the white, rural, uneducated vote, and many people, including myself, don't believe that's a winnable fight because of American racism. I know good old Uncle Karl says that race is just another tool of the capital class to divide the workers, but good luck beating that tool. I think the actual argument from the left is that there's ~40% of the country, which is disproportionately POC and working class, that doesn't regularly vote, if they ever vote. An economically populist message could appeal to them and capture them for the left, if the Democratic leadership actually wanted to run such a message. I get why the Dems went for the voters in the suburbs; it makes sense. It just isn't sustainable long-term, and we saw that tonight.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:38
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White fragility is also a concept that exists outside of the book, I think the book just popularized the term. Not that I think schools are really teaching that concept very much anyway, chuds just have a vested interest in pretending that saying "slavery was bad, and the Civil War was fought because the South wanted to perpetuate it" is somehow making white kids cry because they think it means that they're bad because they're white. e: Majorian posted:I think the actual argument from the left is that there's ~40% of the country, which is disproportionately POC and working class, that doesn't regularly vote, if they ever vote. An economically populist message could appeal to them and capture them for the left, if the Democratic leadership actually wanted to run such a message. Maybe, but part of it also might be that they just aren't allowed to vote. Remember, Virginia has voter ID laws. Not saying that McAuliffe definitely would have won or that those people who didn't vote automatically would have even if those laws didn't exist, but they certainly don't help. Twelve by Pies fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:39
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golden bubble posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/interactive/2021/exit-polls-virginia-governor/#h-Y5IF6NZDJZFT3PK2ZNXGJRNMMQ You would think that getting trounced by low education voters would provide some motivation for Democrats to support free college. If this were the other way around, Republicans would be paying kids to go to college.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:40
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Sanguinia posted:I mean, yeah, but most non-fiction books turn into sales pitches by the end. I could choke a rhino with grifting non-fiction books that have a few good bits in them but are mostly salespitch poo poo which my school purchased and gave to me as training materials, why not one about race relations instead of classroom management techniques designed for rich private school kids? The early chapters have some really good stuff in them though. Not that I've used it in my class, I was never able to really come up with any good ideas for it, but that doesn't mean nobody could. Off topic, but DEI stuff like White Fragility always overlooks (or at least overlooks as presented by the DEI consultant getting $10k for the seminar) the intersectional nature of privilege and oppression and makes the white people with personal trauma or neurodiversity extremely uncomfortable to the point of making their lives hell, because many have been told their entire life that they're faking their emotions or don't have the right to their own trauma and experiences and the DEI grift heavily leans into that. What could a middle class white girl know of trauma? Probably a poo poo ton if they've been abused their entire childhood, but they'll never mention it because they'd be called a faker just exaggerating to steal the spotlight, especially in a DEI setting. Those sessions come off as the incredibly ignorant of the diversity of experiences I know DEI can be done well, but I've never seen it.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:43
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I thought about the idea that Republicans win on the back of "It won't get worse" and I realized the one time Democrats successfully invoked it was with Trump. No wonder they're addicted to it.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:44
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Majorian posted:I think the actual argument from the left is that there's ~40% of the country, which is disproportionately POC and working class, that doesn't regularly vote, if they ever vote. An economically populist message could appeal to them and capture them for the left, if the Democratic leadership actually wanted to run such a message. That's fair. At the same time, when you've built your coalition for 30 years around white-collar middle class jobs, and by extensions the industries that produce those jobs and the workers that fill them, going hard enough into economic populism to try and wake up the sleeping giant is a big risk. If you lose more than you've gained to those "pro-business," Republicans, you could leave yourself as a rump party. The problem I keep returning to is the American Zeitgeist. Americans are consumed with their idea of self-made success and rugged individualism to the exclusion of everything. Economic Populism is hard to square with that, and its worse because we've spent so long idealizing the supposedly self-made and the American Right has spent so long making the concept of equity dirty in the American mind. Truly leftist economic populism, as opposed to the faux economic populism of the right which emphasizes by implication they day YOU get to be a rich guy, may never find fertile enough soil in the post-Reagan era. That's why I had so much hope for the Green New Deal, because it basically promised a Second 1950s with all these new jobs that would include both white color and unionized blue-collar positions that couldn't be easily outsourced because of their technology demands. But both parties are so captured by fossil fuels that it never went anywhere. Medicare for All was the next best hope for "American-acceptable economic populism," but both parties are captured by pharma too. And this isn't even discussing how the American Right spun both, and indeed all leftist populism, as communism, and how depressingly effective that still is. Bernie accomplished a lot in destigmatizing the word socialism and some of the policies attendant to it, but I just don't know if its possible to win ENOUGH on that message with the American electorate. Win, yes. Win ENOUGH within our government framework? That's a different ballgame. ...I'm kind of rambling at this point, sorry.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:50
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Twelve by Pies posted:
Sure. But that is another area that Democrats are utterly failing at. Like failing so bad it honestly looks like they don't even care to try. Like you would think for a party that has to understand that those types of voters that are absolutely crucial parts of their coalition and maybe, just maybe that's something worth carving out the filibuster for. But it was hardly even discussed. They just threw up their hands and moved on from it. e: And just since the thread is addressing it - the Democrats absolutely need to find a way to address the CRT/White Fragility/whatever moral panic. Like this country is clearly still incredibly racist and a substantial portion of the electorate will get sucked into these artificial moral panics. It's bullshit that we have to deal with it, but it is clearly having an actual effect on elections and the Democrats need to have a message that navigates the waters without pissing off their core constituencies in the process. I don't know what that answer is, but they clearly need to do better in that regard. Pobrecito fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 06:52
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Sanguinia posted:I mean, yeah, but most non-fiction books turn into sales pitches by the end. I could choke a rhino with grifting non-fiction books that have a few good bits in them but are mostly salespitch poo poo which my school purchased and gave to me as training materials, why not one about race relations instead of classroom management techniques designed for rich private school kids? The early chapters have some really good stuff in them though. Not that I've used it in my class, I was never able to really come up with any good ideas for it, but that doesn't mean nobody could.
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Nov 3, 2021 06:53
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Pobrecito posted:Sure. But that is another area that Democrats are utterly failing at. Like failing so bad it honestly looks like they don't even care to try. Yeah, no argument here. It does seem like Dems are content to just ignore them. I assume that the idea behind just giving up on it is that voter ID laws are largely popular in polling, which is mainly because people who have no problems getting an ID think that nobody else could possibly have problems getting an ID, or just don't understand that in person voting fraud and the idea that people are going around pretending to be other people to vote illegally just isn't a problem. Which is why it's their job to actually try and fight against these laws and explain why voter ID laws only exist to suppress voter turnout, instead of just throwing up their hands and moving on like you said. KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:"Sure, this book is garbage, but all of these other books are garbage too. The premise of this book sounds good to me, so why not teach it in schools?" If someone writes a book saying "Climate change is bad and horrible and destructive, and therefore you need to hire me to hold seminars at your company on how to reverse the effects of climate change," this doesn't suddenly mean climate change is a hoax.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:04
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I don't think Robin DiAngelo's concept of white fragility is equivalent to climate change
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Nov 3, 2021 07:06
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Sanguinia posted:That's fair. At the same time, when you've built your coalition for 30 years around white-collar middle class jobs, and by extensions the industries that produce those jobs and the workers that fill them, going hard enough into economic populism to try and wake up the sleeping giant is a big risk. If you lose more than you've gained to those "pro-business," Republicans, you could leave yourself as a rump party. Not at all, I agree with this for the most part. Our political system is an incredibly undemocratic one in the best of times, and the deck has only been more and more stacked against the left over the last half-century. That's why I've largely given up on electoralism (at least as it pertains to the upper echelons of the federal government) as a means for enacting lasting change that benefits the poor and vulnerable. I still vote, but direct action's more important. Organizing and supporting the new wave of labor militancy that we're seeing spring up around us is where it's at IMO.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:11
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Looking like Murphy is going to be fine so I'm going to bed. What poo poo night but I guess it could've been shittier.
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Nov 3, 2021 07:56
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Sanguinia posted:Lol at you claiming that teachers wanting to teach 1619 project materials or draw ideas from a useful book like White Fragility as "not a fake moral panic." As if the Right's response to some people advocating that or individual teachers using their leeway to select their own materials within the state standards to try them out wasn't "We will mandate that schools teach the Pros as well as the Cons of the 3/5ths Compromise and the Holocaust," and claiming that to be "teaching ideology free historical fact and critical thinking skills." White fragility is an incredibly problematic book written by a con artist. It’s a great con, but she’s been taken down by plenty of black activists as well, including authors who point out white fragility as a name is yet again an coddling phrase to make white people feel better about what they’ve done and continue to do. Also the implication that all white people are racist unless you would follow her five helpful steps, or she gives examples that only exhibit her own personal biases, (there’s an excerpt about her in a park that’s nuts) is frankly a ridiculous thought process, and does no good in teaching, other than to make companies feel better while they continue to gently caress over there workers, but in a more “equitable” way. Woke culture isn’t really a thing (in the way that conservatives talk about it) but white Twitter folks being versions of real life Libs who are huge pain in the rear end hypocrites who suck to interact with is a thing. They just usually don’t have any real power, but they piss off enough people the right has done a great job of convincing folks they’re the real enemy. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 09:04
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Ok I have to mea culpa about India Walton a bit https://twitter.com/thehousered/status/1455735146712289281?t=m_lO-o-Kl9sXXw2Reubikg&s=19 https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1455743163847544838 What a loving idiot
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Nov 3, 2021 09:26
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lol the democrats are a waste
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Nov 3, 2021 09:33
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A big flaming stink posted:Ok I have to mea culpa about India Walton a bit I do feel it's important to add in that she can make mistakes but she'd be less likely to if she wasnt cut off from most of the veteran party apparatus and also not fighting against the person she beat in the primaries, again.
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Nov 3, 2021 09:48
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smoobles posted:lol the democrats are a waste
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Nov 3, 2021 10:44
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A big flaming stink posted:Ok I have to mea culpa about India Walton a bit quote:Charter Schools I asked pretty much the same question in US News a while back referencing Lauren Bobert and candidates like her, and wondering why more competent people didn't run for office.
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Nov 3, 2021 11:43
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Because your options are to start with a small fortune and run as dog catcher in nowhere town and spend 10 years building a profile or start with a small fortune and run as a republican.
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Nov 3, 2021 11:55
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Its not as interesting as the other things, but New York had five referrenda on the ballot. The two that passed were pretty anodyne...one said that New Yorkers had the right to clean air and water and the other said that New York City civil courts could handle claims up to $50k. Three failed. Of them, one would habe changed the redistricting law to make it easier for the independent redistricting committee to go through, one would have allowed same day voter registration, and one would have allowed no excuse absentee balloting (right now, in New York,to get an absentee ballot, you have to certify illness or incapacitating will make you unable to go to the polls.)
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Nov 3, 2021 12:30
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Gumball Gumption posted:The progressive mayor won in Boston Oh right, local elections are over with. Anyone want 71,240 William "Billy" Tauro for Mayor of Somerville signs? Must sell, willing to go cheap
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Nov 3, 2021 12:34
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she'll probably disappoint me someday but I'll take this.
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My family voted early since we were doing some camping this past weekend in southwest VA. I cannot tell you how much loving republican cult inroads have been made in rural Virginia. Literal shrines to Trump on the side of the road. I realize that signs (and shrines) cannot vote, but I'm starting to think that's not entirely true. Getting people whipped up about boogymen like Critical Race Theory and masks seems to work really well. It doesn't help that Terry and Biden are less than inspiring but I don't think they could counter the dumbass wave in the red parts of the commonwealth. Also, what the hell is Way to Go Brandon? It was spray painted like some kind of cult mantra beside Youngkin signs.
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Nov 3, 2021 12:40
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ewiley posted:Also, what the hell is Way to Go Brandon? It was spray painted like some kind of cult mantra beside Youngkin signs. There was some race where a news anchor was interviewing the guy who had won his first ever race, and his name was Brandon. Some people in the stands started chanting "gently caress Joe Biden." Whether she genuinely misheard them, or was trying to cover to avoid embarrassment, she said that the crowd was chanting "Let's go Brandon." "Let's go Brandon" has now become a right wing meme as a G-rated way of saying "gently caress Joe Biden."
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Nov 3, 2021 12:47
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:turns out the material interest of white women in virginia is "don't shove that poo poo down my kid's throat, thanks." mcauliffe ran hard on abortion rights and paid leave and still lost hard because woke poo poo really is that repulsive to voters, but a bunch of white college kids have the party in thrall, so expect the dems to keep slamming their dick in a car door over issues that shouldn't be in front of voters in the first place Goes without saying I think (since this account seems to be a troll, but I guess we have to take it seriously) but absolutely none of this post is true. Literally the last piece of mail I got from the Mcauliffe campaign was this:  They even sent out literal ENDORSEMENT NOTICE: TRUMP ENDORSES YOUNGKIN sort of mailers. There were no issues he raised in this campaign at all, it was just TRUMP 2.0 bullshit the entire time. Decrying the left agenda which is mainly popular with nonwhite nonaffluent voters as being white college kid stuff is also wrong but for reasons everyone already knows! DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:the youngkin ads for the last month started with playing that macauliffe clip about parents not having a say in children's education (because some 17 year old GOP activists had to read toni morrison or whatever). by this morning it was about how tmac was putting pedophiles in your kids schools and protecting sex pest teachers (unions). i thought that was a sign of desperation but it seems the dogwhistle is alive and well. that means the republicans are back to having a "variable volume" strategy This is because Loudon county covered up a rape in a girl's bathroom perpetrated by a cis male, and in fact just moved the kid to another school where he did it again. It didn't have anything to do with trans stuff at all but it's very easy at that point to use the shred of truth to cover the rest. The clip of T-mac was obviously misused, but also T-mac never actually articulated why public schooling/etc was important, and really didn't touch education beyond saying "i will put x dollars in to schools" once at a campaign stop. Even that was tied in with something people hate, I think the bullet point he used was "We will put more money for public schools and affordable health care." Majorian posted:I think KOTEX's point isn't that progressives were to blame, but rather that running on culture war issues, as opposed to "here's how we made your lives materially better over the past decade, and how we're going to keep making them better in the future," was always going to be a losing proposition. I mean the problem here is that for the most part, dems haven't made people's lives better over the past decade. SourKraut posted:Yeah, and with the heavy (and successful) GOP efforts to restrict voting rights and access, I expect Virginia to basically go red from here on out. This entire election was run literally illegally on the old gerrymander maps because the democrats refused to use the newly drawn maps for some reason they never articulated (even when Carter asked point blank in assembly). Entirely an own-goal. Skyl3lazer fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 13:00
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I guess we are waiting for the big dumps from new jersey
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Nov 3, 2021 13:05
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Skyl3lazer posted:This is because Loudon county covered up a rape in a girl's bathroom perpetrated by a cis male, and in fact just moved the kid to another school where he did it again. It didn't have anything to do with trans stuff at all but it's very easy at that point to use the shred of truth to cover the rest. I was going to mention this but I saw you added it to your post. Yeah, the whole situation in Loudon County probably really hurt McAuliffe, the right wing media grabbed onto that story before all the information was out and spun it as hard as they could to push the trans panic agenda of "Democrats want men dressed as women to go in YOUR bathrooms and rape you, this is proof!" It never really got pushed back against either. And of course, the solution is not, as KOTEX would like, for the Dems to just say "Well then gently caress trans rights!" and become indistinguishable from Republicans on LGBTQ issues.
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Nov 3, 2021 13:10
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That dude is claiming that a.cabal of white rich college leftists run the Democratic party, and all I can say is I'm not sure what planet they are on, but it definitely ain't ours.
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Nov 3, 2021 13:22
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At least Youngkin is going to save me from bankruptcy by reducing the cost of corn by 2 cents.
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Nov 3, 2021 13:48
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Flopsy posted:So the big take aways tonight are parents are pissed and if trump's not on the ticket white suburbanites will be wooed away is that what I'm hearing? It is difficult to overstate just how much it has sucked to be a parent in the pandemic. There's not a real fundamental reason why they would necessarily go Republican, but people are rightfully demanding quick results because they are hurting now. The Democratic establishment hasn't been able to articulate a vision, much less a credible plan to do anything. The best they've come up with is remote learning and "following the science" but they disappeared in a puff of smoke whenever anyone points out that remote learning sucks rear end as implemented by most schools or asks "ok but how about the wages I lose because I have to be at home during the school day, or job protections so I don't get fired when my kid has to quarantine?" COVID might be ebbing now but the ripple effects are going to stick around for a long time. The danger is that these suburban parents join up with groups that claim to be organized around COVID concerns only to get pipelined into whatever social panic the gop decides to push next (trans kids, CRT, etc) which is argue is already happening.
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Nov 3, 2021 13:52
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Shifty Pony posted:It is difficult to overstate just how much it has sucked to be a parent in the pandemic. People got to stop saying this poo poo. COVID is not ebbing: Republican and FYGM dipshittery, along with anti-vaxxer nonsense is going to keep this poo poo going. Numbers keep going up in many states. They actively spread it because it hurts Biden, because they are death cultists.
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Nov 3, 2021 13:55
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Thom12255 posted:At least Youngkin is going to save me from bankruptcy by reducing the cost of corn by 2 cents. I'm glad I'm not the only one amused by that. The first time I saw that ad I was like "Wait, did it just go from 56 to 54?" and a second viewing confirmed yes.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:17
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Holy poo poo this outcome wasn't a dream T-Mac really shat his pants this badly, feels like the day Nov 3 2016 again, just disbelief man. What an absolute poo poo show of a campaign.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:21
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'm glad I'm not the only one amused by that. The first time I saw that ad I was like "Wait, did it just go from 56 to 54?" and a second viewing confirmed yes. Yet his ad's claim it will save the average family $1500 in the first year.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:22
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Holy poo poo this outcome wasn't a dream T-Mac really shat his pants this badly, feels like the day Nov 3 2016 again, just disbelief man. What an absolute poo poo show of a campaign. Even Hillary won Virginia, he did even worse than her lol. 2016 was more of a shock because Trump was more unthinkable as a president than a polite sweater-vest greed avatar is as a governor, and because it was obvious how bad McAuliffe was loving up way more than her (her lead in Virginia was never really questioned) but I was still surprised he managed to actually lose a state that Biden, Hillary, and Northam won handily VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 14:29
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TulliusCicero posted:That dude is claiming that a.cabal of white rich college leftists run the Democratic party, and all I can say is I'm not sure what planet they are on, but it definitely ain't ours. I think this stuff is an extension of something that got talked about a month or two ago where think tanks were talking about how "Defund the Police" was not actually popular with black voters as a bloc, but rather with college-educated voters. Basically, a lot of the anti-racism stuff as a platform is more driven by white guilt than genuine desire for these specific changes in the national conversation (not to say that in certain specific communities the support isn't more grassroots, just that it isn't some sort of nationwide demand by "the black community"). A lot of people were making fun of blue dogs for complaining about it, but with education being the top issue for the VA election, it sort of seems like CRT as a counter to Defund the Police was successful at flipping white suburbs, and while McAuliffe did a horrible job of deflecting it, it does raise the question of what he SHOULD have said specifically. This also goes back to a common refrain of "you don't flip voters, you flip turnout", which relies on there being folks that you could activate if you ran on the right policies. However, in 2020 and 2021, we have seen some really high turnout elections, but the results seem to have shown that habitual non-voters are basically the same as the overall electorate when they come out - the hope/assumption for a long time was that non-voters would look more like the "every 4 years" voter, which skew D, but instead it seems like there are just as many Fox watchers and antivaxx people in that pool as in the voting population, and increasing turnout won't be a panacea. This maybe shouldn't be as surprising as it is, but a lot of people want to stick to "Bernie would have won" and categorically reject anything that could undermine that. The appetite for leftist policy is only there for certain issues (min wage, checks in the mail), not the whole platform (Defund/abolish, anti-capitalist policies, equitable housing) and it isn't just the Clintonites that need to stop and take a temp check on the voting base.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:48
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"Whole platform"? What Dems are running on that?
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Nov 3, 2021 14:53
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TulliusCicero posted:People got to stop saying this poo poo. COVID is not ebbing: Republican and FYGM dipshittery, along with anti-vaxxer nonsense is going to keep this poo poo going. Numbers keep going up in many states. They actively spread it because it hurts Biden, because they are death cultists. COVID will have more waves but since the entire school age population is soon going to be eligible for vaccination parents will murder any government official who mentions a school COVID precaution in 2022. Once kids have had enough time to complete the vaccination series that's it, COVID is Over™️ for parents. Democrats need to push hard on education with a distinct focus on (positive) parental empowerment and involvement . They need to pick something that is wrong and hammer it. If they don't they are going to get worked over by Republicans among suburban voters because CRT and book panics are acting as relief valves for parental anger at feeling like they got hosed and had no say.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:54
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Twelve by Pies posted:And of course, the solution is not, as KOTEX would like, for the Dems to just say "Well then gently caress trans rights!" and become indistinguishable from Republicans on LGBTQ issues.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:55
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Shifty Pony posted:Democrats need to push hard on education with a distinct focus on (positive) parental empowerment and involvement . They need to pick something that is wrong and hammer it. If they don't they are going to get worked over by Republicans among suburban voters because CRT and book panics are acting as relief valves for parental anger at feeling like they got hosed and had no say. Not a shitpost, but when is the last time the Democrats really owned and drove the conversation on an issue? I don't think this party is able to do that, part of it is down to the advantage given to the GOP by the right wing media machine, but I honestly can't remember when Dem messaging on a topic wasn't just a reaction to GOP talking points. (I'm sure its happened I just don't recall)
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Nov 3, 2021 15:01
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