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Jay-V posted:i thought jim clyburn would bring it home for t-mac Thought the same for Bill Kristol!
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Nov 3, 2021 14:23
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Kalit posted:Wow, what the hell happened with 3 and 4? I know nothing about these questions/NY, but they seem like an easy win.... The Conservative Party launched a giant ad blitz on a "No on 1, 3, and 4" campaign, arguing it would lead to partisan gerrymandering, illegal immigrants voting and voter fraud. The state was blanketed with ads and mailers.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:28
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This is really a big red flag for the midterms https://twitter.com/politicsmaps/status/1455883420848967682?s=21 The Dems’ coalition of suburban voters that allowed Biden to win has already collapsed
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Nov 3, 2021 14:38
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FlamingLiberal posted:This is really a big red flag for the midterms Because they want status quo business, which is inherently antithetical to progressive ideals. Chasing these FYGM Karen fucks is a massive waste of time and political capital
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Nov 3, 2021 14:40
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Love to blame voters for an outcome because uh, Americans absolutely love expensive insulin. This reminds me of 2016 when people were just screaming "AMERICA IS SUPER RACIST" as the explanation for why Trump won as if some miasma of racism stalked the land and magically turned Obama winning districts into KKK strongholds, as if it hadn't been racist before that point and the key factor in losing that race wasn't due to lots of factors, including the critical one that could most easily be controlled a bad candidate who ran a very bad campaign All of these lukewarm takes about how actually voters don't love luxury space communism and are desperate to protect their little Brayden's or whatever where all still true while VA was winning the table scraps this forum was gloating about as the "Virginia Model" for the future. T-Mac just sucked and ran a bad race.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:42
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So I've noticed a lot of people here have been saying "Well what if America is actually a conservative country and running on leftist policies won't win you elections even if you tried". I understand this sentiment and it's probably true. A lot of Americans probably are conservative. They like their cars, they like the luxuries and "freedoms" of modern 20th century America and many people already have things like rising home equity or a decent enough life they don't want to compromise on. They don't want to be told that they're bad people or that you're going to take away something they already have and replacing it with something "risky" complicated and difficult to understand. However I don't think that this is the time to lose faith in the system. It just means you're gonna have to pick and choose what you campaign on and focus narrowly on it while figuring out the pain points of common voters and running elections on the promise of addressing these problems. This is not a new concept. The fact of the matter is we're a bunch of misfits of predominantly urban and white collar background. In Tsarist Russia there were all kinds of proto-communist movements that fixated on replacing the Tsarist regime by any means necessary, including violence only to find they faced severe repercussions and a discrediting of their movement. Everyone thought "If we could just go to the people and plead our case they'd be sympathetic and activate as a revolutionary cause" Then we had something called "Going to the people" as summed up in this wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_to_the_People quote:It was ultimately a failure, and by the Autumn of that year more than a thousand arrests were made. They failed to inspire "unrest even on a local scale" or to establish local footholds for future activities. Yet almost 40 years later we had a revolution and the rise of the Soviet Union. TulliusCicero posted:Here's the deal: we might be in one of the most pro-labour political environments of our lifetime. Strikes everywhere, millions quitting their lovely jobs in solidarity, the Great Resignation is upon us. This is an absolute goldmine opportunity to get true Leftist grassroots movements going everywhere in this country. This guy gets it. We're never going to get anywhere by imposing leftism on America, the people hate that and will vote Republican to spite you just as Russian peasants turned in would be anarchists and revolutionaries to the police for political crimes during "Going to the people". Many of us are middle class computer touchers and educated urban "elites" in the eyes of the masses we all think we represent. There is a massive pro labor movement that is taking place in spite of us rather than because of us. You want an alternative to current Democratic Party/GOP orthodoxy? It starts by you going out and figuring out what the pain points are of every day people. We already know most of them, healthcare, low pay, abusive management, lovely inflexible working conditions. It's nothing new. One of the biggest pain points for working class people in Imperial Russia was that their pay was garbage and often even worse than what was officially stated because management would dock their pay with fines for stupid procedural errors. Lenin was a lawyer and he wrote simple, easy to read leaflets that condensed this grievance into an understanding of what the worker's rights were and how they could work with socialists to agitate for and demand better rights. In some cases these rules violated existing labor laws. This was a time when peasants were deeply religious people with conservative values and a secret police often infiltrated every aspect of society and arrested people for political thought crime... If the Russians could change their country in this scenario, there's no reason Americans can't do so in the comparably freer and more permissive American system. But you aren't gonna do it by declaring yourself a socialist mayoral candidate and then running scab labor in your election operation. You aren't gonna do it by telling people they can't have things that make their lives easier in a capitalist hellscape. You sure as hell aren't gonna do it by demonizing people's way of life. You also are not going to sit on the peak and preach about leftist politics and hope that if people just understood where you're coming from they'd vote you.. None of that is going to work. I've said it once and I'll say it again. You have no responsibility or obligation to get into the weeds to explain HOW you are going to make things better for people. That's a white collar upper-middle class academia sort of audience and it lets your political enemies nitpick sound bytes out of your long winded academic explanations and come up with reasons to oppose you... No it's much simpler. You bring out good old fashioned agitprop. You're not getting paid enough- We'll fix it by making them pay you more You can't afford your medical bills? We'll make healthcare free. We'll use new technology to create jobs in the energy sector (Read: Green Energy) We'll create new jobs and opportunities in X industries. It really doesn't matter what you do to make this a reality, as long as you do it effectively and deliver on the promise to shore up your support with those constituencies. The best part is we have modern technology and data science techniques that with some money would allow you to build a database of voters and cross reference data of the biggest pain points and political grievances people have right now. Then you just agitate and focus on those core issues. Boris Johnson won the British Election by repeating "Get Brexit Done" almost constantly and I think that works a lot better than a complex explanation of why we're gonna do yet another referendum on Brexit to see if you really want it after everyone was sick and tired of hearing about it for 2-3 years. No more talking about getting rid of coal and fossil fuels. You do that discretely with your political comrades at party HQ when you write up your policy and bills. You don't talk about taking away people's cars. You focus on simple statements that address people's problems. Most importantly you go out and you LISTEN. You don't impose your beliefs. You go around to red states and you ask what it is that makes people feel lovely about their lives or their jobs. You don't ask as a carpetbagger or some Yankee either. You find someone the community trusts who's also willing to talk to you and you get them to ask those questions. Then you take the bulk of those grievances compatible with socialism or social democracy and you condense them to simple, easy to read points of view that fit on a leaflet or a soundbyte you can repeat on TV. These are things conservatives and the GOP innately understand while Democrats go all half cocked on TV like a Rhodes scholar and talk down on people with complicated "Scary" plans they later pare down for obscure procedural reasons nobody understands. That kind of poo poo pisses people off and it doesn't surprise me in the least that people vote Republican because of it. Republicans know how to tap into deep emotional fears and concepts that people can easily understand unless they're a well educated urban political junkies who can spend hours of their free time pouring over the information. Most people don't care. We're in an information saturated world where ideas fight for oxygen with extreme attention grabbing statements. The winning political formula in my opinion will be when the left stops being so academic and starts doing research on popular bi-partisan policy planks and then finding out how to "go viral" with simple statements and catch phrases that drive turnout on those policy planks. The Russian Revolution seized opportunities provided by the times to enact political change in an analog era. We have unique times in the digital era that are offering us a similar opportunity.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:44
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FlamingLiberal posted:This is really a big red flag for the midterms This is why I was skeptical of the turn to suburban voters in the first place, despite how much-vaunted it was in liberal circles, on these boards, etc The college educated suburbs isn't some magical land free from racism in contrast to the working class neighborhoods and rural areas populated by nothing but stupid racist troglodytes or whatever. Affluent white suburbanites basically agreed with pretty much all of Trump's platform because it was just the standard Republican platform, they were just offended that it was packaged in aggressive confrontational loutish wrapping rather than smug condescending dogwhistle wrapping. Not really a surprise they gravitated back to it once it had a smiling urbane sweater-vested face man again, good thing Democrats didn't garrotte union and working class support to make that pivot...oh wait what's that? They did? Oh god
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Nov 3, 2021 14:46
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VitalSigns posted:This is why I was skeptical of the turn to suburban voters in the first place, despite how much-vaunted it was in liberal circles, on these boards, etc
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Nov 3, 2021 14:49
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Rochallor posted:The repeated and humiliating failures of running centrist Dems campaigning on nothing should really put to bed the idea that VBNMW is "harm reduction" in any meaningful way. If it inevitably leads to electing Republicans, withholding your vote or making a protest vote ought to be considered the harm reduction option, and Terry McAuliffe the accelerationist one. I've been wondering how Progressives could scare the party leaders into paying attention to us. What about a coordinated effort to get Progressives to change their registration to Independent before Jan 1, then switch back in time to make an impact on the Primaries? If enough of us did that, it would make news. My fear is the difficulty of coordinating it, and then making sure they switch back afterwards. Don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot in closed primary states.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:50
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Love to blame voters for an outcome because uh, Americans absolutely love expensive insulin. Obama (and even Biden kinda) showed that you can win an election by trying to get votes in places you won't "win." Fox News screeches endlessly that Democrats are out of touch elites who only care about rich people and then Democrats nominate people who act like out of touch pandering elites who only campaign for rich people's votes. Mayor Pete loving sucks but at least he shows up to places that he won't "win." Bill Clinton loving sucks but he can at least speak the language of the working class. Republicans figured out that your base is coming out no matter what, if you can pull in some votes in normally "blue" areas you can win. Trump is the worst human alive but he could at least identify that average Americans think the system is broken. Democrats are so woefully unequipped for the moment that they can't even acknowledge poo poo loving sucks. Edit: Basically this Kraftwerk posted:
Pook Good Mook fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 14:51
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Old James posted:I've been wondering how Progressives could scare the party leaders into paying attention to us. What about a coordinated effort to get Progressives to change their registration to Independent before Jan 1, then switch back in time to make an impact on the Primaries? We could just stop voting for democrats. It's not that hard. I did it right here in broward county last time I voted. when faced with a dwindling voter base and an increasing share of electoral losses, the hope is that democrats change (lol) or crumble and be replaced by an actual leftist movement (also probably lol) No, I don't care to hear the "but creeping fascism!!!!" doomerism nonsense. be optimistic 
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Nov 3, 2021 14:54
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Push El Burrito posted:You can bold it however much you want but it doesn't make it true. It has been posted many times the things Dems have passed in Virginia that directly helped people including things like Medicaid expansions that gave 400,000 low income people insurance. Medicaid expansion happened when Republicans held the legislature, in 2018 E: like my previous post pointed out, the hallmark healthcare initiative with total Dem control was a slight modification in the ACA's reinsurance rates Shageletic fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 14:57
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If Trump got reelected in 2024, could America actually survive another term with him after he tried to do an insurrection? He's too mentally unhinged and his fanbase is full of cultists
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Nov 3, 2021 14:57
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Lib and let die posted:We could just stop voting for democrats. Honestly while it seems like Walton ran a bad campaign, it turns out the centrists got their way by purity testing the hell out of that election so maybe it's time for progressives to follow suit.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:58
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For the Democrats to suffer losses right when their colleagues in Congress are making extraordinary progress on the SALT cap repeal just shows that the masses aren't paying attention. Very disappointing.
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Nov 3, 2021 14:59
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Willo567 posted:If Trump got reelected in 2024, could America actually survive another term with him after he tried to do an insurrection? He's too mentally unhinged and his fanbase is full of cultists Why wouldn't it?
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Nov 3, 2021 14:59
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Lib and let die posted:No, I don't care to hear the "but creeping fascism!!!!" doomerism nonsense. be optimistic Cute
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Nov 3, 2021 15:00
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Murgos posted:I feel like I’m being gaslit again. I don’t see how people can look at a constitution ignoring, big lying, COVID denying, insurrection supporting, fascist, bigoted and racist Republican Party and vote in a new R governor. Because there is an insane conception of politics as a sphere beyond morality in America, which allows people with friends and family members who vote for white supremacism to abolish their friends and family members of that moral guilt and continue associating with them.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:00
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FlamingLiberal posted:Right; I knew when Biden eked out a victory last year on the backs of people who primarily hated Trump that this was not a winning strategy long-term. A lot of them didn’t necessarily disagree with the platform Trump or the GOP put forward but they just thought he was too much of an rear end in a top hat. It certainly seemed to bring out a lot more people than came out for say Romney, but it also drove a lot of people away and boosted turnout on the other side too at least in 2017-2020 anyway. I guess it was an asset overall in 2016 since it seemed to have led to democratic complacency as no one could really imagine such an rear end in a top hat actually being the president
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Nov 3, 2021 15:04
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Murgos posted:I feel like I’m being gaslit again. I don’t see how people can look at a constitution ignoring, big lying, COVID denying, insurrection supporting, fascist, bigoted and racist Republican Party and vote in a new R governor. People who aren't already deeply plugged in to the Democrat media apparatus do not care about 1/6 nor should they
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Nov 3, 2021 15:04
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Willo567 posted:If Trump got reelected in 2024, could America actually survive another term with him after he tried to do an insurrection? He's too mentally unhinged and his fanbase is full of cultists Definitely maybe.  I mean it's not like we've done this dance before.  It's not a line of thinking we've heard year in, year out.  Our "faves" haven't been abusing dire language for over a decade  And the idea of America being one election away from fascism is clearly not a partisan thought  War criminals haven't used it to extend their time at the helm  I don't know. Maybe we can't survive another bad election.  Jury's still out, I guess. 
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Nov 3, 2021 15:08
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Willo567 posted:If Trump got reelected in 2024, could America actually survive another term with him after he tried to do an insurrection? He's too mentally unhinged and his fanbase is full of cultists The U.S. is currently dysfunctional. Many people get by without being significantly inconvenienced by this dysfunction, or they have simply gotten used to it. Or they realize they are suffering, but enjoy that the groups they dislike are suffering even more. If this is what you mean, then America already isn't surviving. If you mean a literal balkanization or armed civil war, that is not very likely. People will just continue to live in increasingly lovely and hostile conditions, and the global influence of the U.S. will wane with the ongoing dysfunction. Daily life will get worse and worse over time, but the system will not allow for any redress or improvement. Empires tend to fade away, not go out with a bang.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:12
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:People who aren't already deeply plugged in to the Democrat media apparatus do not care about 1/6 nor should they Pretty sure an attempted fascist coup, no matter how inept, is something that should be a big deal but ok let's normalize that I guess. It's entirely possible to care about that as well as the fact a lot of the country is broken and we have problems with Healthcare, wealth inequality, racism, etc. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 15:14
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DarkCrawler posted:Because there is an insane conception of politics as a sphere beyond morality in America, which allows people with friends and family members who vote for white supremacism to abolish their friends and family members of that moral guilt and continue associating with them. Think the situation is a little more complicated when millions of PoC vote for Republicans every cycle but yeah keep up the great woke scolding and elitist poo poo, dems are crushing with it
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Nov 3, 2021 15:16
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Normalize losing
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Nov 3, 2021 15:17
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Inferior Third Season posted:It depends on what you mean by "survive". People are dying and suffering every day already because of the policies implemented by the government (or from the lack of policies that should exist but don't). I don’t think we’re headed for an imminent collapse and I mostly agree with what you said, but I feel like in most of our lifetimes we saw exactly the opposite happen in 1989. It can happen surprisingly fast
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Nov 3, 2021 15:17
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Pook Good Mook posted:Obama (and even Biden kinda) showed that you can win an election by trying to get votes in places you won't "win." The Democratic Party recruits their membership and key positions of power from Ivy League institutions and highly academic/upper class backgrounds... That has been the culture and hiring practice for the last 30-40 years at least. It's a party for those people and if you want access you have to have come from that background. It's inherently classist and a part of the problem. These kinds of people are implicitly hostile to the poor and working class. At best they'll take a sort of condescending paternalistic attitude toward them that was epitomized by post 2008 Obama. It's an obsessively credentialist party and you'll get nothing done this way because everyone in America hates these people. It's not about their education, it's their out of touch New England privilege where they're completely insulated from what the vast majority of America's problems and needs are. This is a fact and it manifests in different ways within the party and outside the party. There are some real problems out there and the issue is that we no longer have people that can "connect" with those problems in a valid way. I want to say that a fully independent 3rd party is possibly what we need here, but the party should be composed of membership of influential community members of local communities across America who are looked up to more by said communities than local politicians. I believe that we're all out of touch with the electorate, even the left. Nothing is going to change from the top down. We might as well be talking to a trust fund kid from Orange County and asking them what they think is the political solution to the problems of the lower classes in America. They might have a good sounding answer if they're truly sympathetic but they're still completely out of touch with the vast majority of the country and can never truly do anything besides serve as a facilitator for the people who actually know what is happening on the ground.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:18
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pthighs posted:Many people who do not need insulin could in fact be steaming mad that someone they do not know is paying less for it. Very interesting theory, with no evidence or data to back it up. Biden's approval has dropped like 15 points since the summer. I don't think that's because "Dems actually did too much to help people!" I think the much more obvious explanations are Delta and the supply chain issues. And of course, getting NOTHING done on BBB and BIF. With Biden's approval underwater, Democrats would need to run really smart campaigns to win. Instead of doing that, Terry said "parents shouldn't have a say in their children's education" and complained about Trump, who never campaigned for Youngkin. I love Kraftwerk's post, and if dems or an actual left party did that stuff they'd win. But I think if there weren't a Delta surge and if like, you could find your favorite brand of graham crackers (or whatever) at the store McAuliffe would have won. Fancy Pelosi posted:For the Democrats to suffer losses right when their colleagues in Congress are making extraordinary progress on the SALT cap repeal just shows that the masses aren't paying attention. Very disappointing. lmao this post is very good. Hellblazer187 fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 15:20
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Angry_Ed posted:Pretty sure an attempted fascist coup, no matter how inept, is something that should be a big deal but ok let's normalize that I guess. To be frank, the people that care about 1/6 are already gonna vote blue no matter who anyways, so it's a waste of energy to run on it when they could focus their messaging on helping people instead.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:21
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Angry_Ed posted:Pretty sure an attempted fascist coup, no matter how inept, is something that should be a big deal but ok let's normalize that I guess. There has been an inordinate amount of attention devoted to it and everyone knows absolutely loving nothing will be done about it. It's no different than media outlets focusing on the Afghanistan pullout and pretending that it's the key issue on voters minds. It isn't. At all. Nobody gives a poo poo. Nobody cares about whether we came this close to a coup or whether Pence nearly bought it at the hands of a mob Trump instigated. It happened. It's over. We're never going to properly deal with it no matter how many NYT/WaPo investigations there are. I cannot count the number of times I've seen headlines about it from the Maggie Habermans of the world. It just doesn't matter.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:21
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Nix Panicus posted:Do you think that happened before or after she got a veteran democrat consultant to help manage her campaign? I think if you're forced to argue that a 27 year old with 3 years of professional organizing experience is a "veteran democratic consultant" then the point you're making may not be particularly strong.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:24
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Srice posted:To be frank, the people that care about 1/6 are already gonna vote blue no matter who anyways, so it's a waste of energy to run on it when they could focus their messaging on helping people instead. It's not as if the party is treating as an existential threat either considering the inaction against members of Congress who refused to certify and still treating the Republicans as their colleagues.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:24
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Angry_Ed posted:Pretty sure an attempted fascist coup, no matter how inept, is something that should be a big deal but ok let's normalize that I guess. There's no realistic route for a bunch of real estate agents larping to take over the government. Screaming about it being an attempted coup scans as hyperbole to a normal person, because it is
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Nov 3, 2021 15:25
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Pook Good Mook posted:Obama (and even Biden kinda) showed that you can win an election by trying to get votes in places you won't "win." Sucks rear end, but he couldn't shut the gently caress up about how he'd been to every one of Texas' 254 counties and he came within spitting distance of beating Ted Cruz in Texas where no Democrat had won statewide in a quarter century, and he ran comfortably ahead of the gubernatorial candidate who didn't even campaign aside from some billboards and whose message was  (based on the debate she would...have used the rainy day fund on Hurricane Harvey a day earlier  )Then Texas Dems went back to nominating former Republican woman TROOPS for senator who didn't leave the big cities and welp Just acting like you care a little bit instead of writing off whole regions as not worth it makes a difference VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 15:27
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Real estate agents don't normally get several people killed while larping and yet here we are
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Nov 3, 2021 15:27
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:There's no realistic route for a bunch of real estate agents larping to take over the government. Screaming about it being an attempted coup scans as hyperbole to a normal person, because it is It doesn't matter if it was a "realistic" route considering several members of congress came close to being harmed by those "real estate agents" and there were other deaths besides. Take your Glenn-Greenwald-rear end "oh it's just histrionics" take and piss off.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:28
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maybe we need to have a national conversation about how it's not ok to normalize these things or the dems might lose
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Nov 3, 2021 15:28
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Terminal autist posted:Think the situation is a little more complicated when millions of PoC vote for Republicans every cycle but yeah keep up the great woke scolding and elitist poo poo, dems are crushing with it POC who support Republicans are doing it for other reasons that make them a piece of poo poo, nothjng changes as far as morality is concerned.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:29
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All of the Clinton era democrat elite need to be put on a barge and pushed into the sea.
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Nov 3, 2021 15:30
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Groovelord Neato posted:It's not as if the party is treating as an existential threat either considering the inaction against members of Congress who refused to certify and still treating the Republicans as their colleagues. Yea. It definitely sends some mixed messages alright!
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Nov 3, 2021 15:33
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