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TheIncredulousHulk posted:You really don't know why they didn't kill a rule that didn't actually stop them from doing what they wanted? Do you think maybe it might be because the rule didn't actually stop them? They wanted to keep SALT and lower the corporate and top incomes by an extra $1.3 trillion than they initially could. They initially were going to remove SALT entirely to finance another $400 billion in cuts to the corporate rate and top income rate, but they didn't have the votes for that. That was why they had to raise the initial corporate rate from 15% to 21%. They had a choice of capping SALT against the wishes of a large chunk of their members or abolishing the filibuster and Byrd rule and they chose to keep the rule. They could have easily gotten rid of it instead of shrinking the tax cuts and endangering the vote. I'm not sure why they didn't.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:27
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VERSION 1 Dem leadership: *weeping* There, I shaved every broad project, erased all the stuff I promised during the campaign, means-tested it, included how it's going to be funded, directed 60% of it to families and veterans and other segments that poll well. There is no way you'll say this unwieldy mess of a bill is socialist! Moderate Dem: *points finger at bill* Socialist bill. VERSION 2 Dem leadership: *chortling, winking* There, I shaved every broad project, erased all the stuff I promised during the campaign, means-tested it, included how it's going to be funded, directed 60% of it to families and veterans and other segments that poll well. There is NO WAY you'll say this unwieldy mess of a bill is SOCIALIST! Moderate Dem: *softly elbows the first, winks back, points finger at bill* Socialist bill. *both high-five*
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Nov 5, 2021 19:27
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Pervis posted:Is that w/ a cap or assuming there isn't one on the SALT repeal? CRFB is a bunch of fucksticks and it's Mitt Romney, so I'm not inclined to trust their analysis, but based on https://www.crfb.org/blogs/salt-cap-repeal-does-not-belong-build-back-better they assuming an unbounded SALT repeal which Bernie already said "gently caress you" to. It's almost certainly inaccurate: assume a boundary for SALT, and assume the top5% is measured relative to national income distribution, not relative to the income distribution in the respective states. Either way, at best minor technical points.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They wanted to keep SALT and lower the corporate and top incomes by an extra $1.3 trillion than they initially could. The initially were going to remove SALT entirely to finance another $400 billion in cuts to the corporate rate and top income rate, but they didn't have the votes for that. That was why they had to raise the initial corporate rate from 15% to 21%. They had a choice of capping SALT against the wishes of a large chunk of their members or abolishing the filibuster and Byrd rule and they chose to keep the rule. Do you have sources for this? I believe your numbers are way off. Anyways who cares, again, I ask you, is there a time-traveling mind ray that repubs from the year 2017 are using to control Democratic Party members in the year 2021?
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Nov 5, 2021 19:29
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Mellow Seas posted:There's one group that won't stfu about Havana Syndrome in D&D and it sure ain't the libs Um, Havana Syndrome was able to generate passed legislation providing healthcare, but for spooks, of course it's controversial.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:31
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lol if you want to complain about means testing, how do you think i feel when i have been means tested out of receiving every single bit of stimulus/pandemic financial help that has been offered, and i wont benefit from most of the BBB and BIP either because of means testing. democrats literally doing nothing for me because they said i'm not allowed in the club due to an increasingly long list of arbitrary exclusions love seeing people bitching about getting $1600 for their second stimulus payment instead of $2000 when i havent gotten a single red fuckin cent from any of it. i'm broke af but not broke enough to be in the correct income zones, my rent has doubled in 4 years, cost of living is going up multiple percents a year, i dont have kids so no child tax money, wont ever be able to afford a house ever because the average home price is $800,000 in the area i have to live in because i'm tied to my job cancel my student loans joe, it'll be the only thing you do for me that materially benefits me lol. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 19:32
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Mellow Seas posted:There's one group that won't stfu about Havana Syndrome in D&D and it sure ain't the libs laughing about Havana Syndrome is definitely a bipartisan thing here, ime
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Nov 5, 2021 19:33
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HonorableTB posted:lol if you want to complain about means testing, how do you think i feel when i have been means tested out of receiving every single bit of stimulus/pandemic financial help that has been offered, and i wont benefit from most of the BBB and BIP either because of means testing. you should be incredibly angry and not defending the table scaps, op, hth i can't imagine how anyone in your situation could feel anything else towards their enemies in the democrats' party.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:34
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Nah, the Republican party is in favor of SALT and it was a huge controversy that nearly sunk the 2017 Tax bill. The only reason they did it was because reconciliation rules required them to make up the revenue for the 10-year window if they wanted to bring the corporate and top income rates down. They also like free trade does that mean they politely refrained from attacking Hillary on TPP? Lol no. Also it's really weird that you (a) insisted the GOP won't attack salt even though to do it you had to (b) cut out a tweet from Mitt Romney doing just that when you quoted me
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Nov 5, 2021 19:37
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Gumball Gumption posted:This thread would argue that a chicken in every pot was a horrible campaign slogan. Wow, this is some pretty blatant veg(eteri)an erasure right here.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:37
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Lib and let die posted:you should be incredibly angry and not defending the table scaps, op, hth I'm absolutely furious, all the time, I am currently livid at how crumbs are all we get and on top of that, i dont even get any loving crumbs. if i hear the words "personal responsibility" one more time im gonna combust
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Nov 5, 2021 19:42
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"A chicken or an equivalent quantity of soy protein in every pot" doesn't fit on a bumper sticker
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Nov 5, 2021 19:43
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HonorableTB posted:lol if you want to complain about means testing, how do you think i feel when i have been means tested out of receiving every single bit of stimulus/pandemic financial help that has been offered, and i wont benefit from most of the BBB and BIP either because of means testing. Yo, sorry that you're a tar sands worker or whatever, I guess.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:44
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eXXon posted:Wow, this is some pretty blatant veg(eteri)an erasure right here. Listen I know it sounds good to say that we should put more money into feeding Americans but what if it angers voters who can afford groceries? More voters can afford groceries so this is honestly probably a poor strategic move by the Democrats. I wish they could do this but the Republicans would run ads about "stealing food off your table" even though it's actually because of a supply crisis that is their fault. But they would get destroyed in 2024. It just won't work.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:46
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200g of cricket meal in every employee containment tube!
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Nov 5, 2021 19:46
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Sharkie posted:Do you have sources for this? I believe your numbers are way off. Final TCJA bill cost $1.8 trillion The initial corporate tax rate they wanted was 15% and the corporate tax cut alone - without the personal tax cuts - was $2.4 trillion. The initial proposal was ~$7 trillion, but they couldn't get it past reconciliation rules. quote:President Trump has instructed his advisers to make cutting the corporate tax rate to 15 percent a centerpiece of his tax-cut blueprint to be unveiled this week, according to people with knowledge of his plans, even if that means a significant reduction in revenue that could jettison his campaign promise to curb deficits. quote:The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act that Congress passed on Dec. 22 was quite different from the tax cuts proposed by the Trump Administration last April and the Unified Framework that the White House and top congressional Republicans agreed to in September. While the overall direction did not change—the plan started and ended primarily as a big tax cut for businesses—it underwent two significant alterations: It got much smaller and it became far less regressive. quote:At each step along the way, the net tax cut shrank—mostly by slimming down benefits for the highest-income households. The Tax Policy Center estimated that the Administration’s April outline, a one-page summary based largely on proposals that candidate Trump had made during his presidential race, would have cut taxes by $7.8 trillion over 10 years. By September, Hill and White House negotiators downsized the net tax cut to about $2.4 trillion. The final bill will reduce revenue by about $1.3 trillion over the coming decade, even after including its effects on the overall economy, TPC estimates. They also had to make the personal income tax cuts temporary in order to make the corporate cuts permanent under reconciliation rules: quote:Keep in mind that the GOP made one other big revision. Neither the April outline nor the September plan ever suggested that the individual income tax changes would be temporary. Yet, the final bill eliminates nearly all its individual income tax revisions by 2026, though it retains most corporate income tax changes. The final bill ended up about 1/6th the size of the initial proposal.  https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/how-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-evolved
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Nov 5, 2021 19:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Final TCJA bill cost $1.8 trillion Ok but none of this explains why you think what repubs did in 2017 has anything to do with what Democratic Party members have to do in 2021.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:52
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:You really don't know why they didn't kill a rule that didn't actually stop them from doing what they wanted? Do you think maybe it might be because the rule didn't actually stop them?
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Nov 5, 2021 19:56
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VitalSigns posted:Did the filibuster even really stop them, yeah they had to add it in to get other stuff they wanted, and now the other party is sacrificing stuff they promised to do in order give Jersey Republicans their deductions back, so what did the filibuster cost the GOP exactly? The only thing it made them give up in the tax bill is mostly being handed right back by the other party for free, actually for free with a bonus because it's unpopular so not only do they get it they get to blame it on the Democrats They had to pass the tax bill via reconciliation because of the filibuster and reconciliation rules shrank the initial proposal from ~$7 trillion to ~$1.8 trillion (and that $1.8 trillion also required them to raise the corporate rate to 21% from 15%, cap SALT, make the income tax cuts expire in 2027, and no longer index the standard deduction to inflation; none of which they wanted to do). They could have nixed the filibuster and passed it via regular order without making those sacrifices, without endangering the bill, and with an extra $5.3 trillion in tax cuts. But, they didn't. Honestly, I'm not sure why they didn't. In unrelated news: There's now 6 Republican cosponsors for the sunshine protection act. 32 Senators in support, none on the record opposed, and 68 with no stated position. https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/1456689706897399818
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Nov 5, 2021 20:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They had to pass the tax bill via reconciliation They did not.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:05
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I don't know how anyone can come away from this thread feeling anything but total nihilistic despair. Every time I read it the same conclusions pop out: the things that Dems do are pointless and useless and will lose them votes, the things Dems could theoretically do will lose them votes despite helping people and thus be undone, the Republicans can do literally anything and never be punished for it because they give people permission to be bigoted, giving people permission to hurt disadvantaged groups is not enough reason for most Americans to oppose Republicans no matter how much the Republican policies will also hurt them because Democrats won't help them, and the only solution to all this is a revolution that will never happen because half the people that would be necessary for it are fascists who would kill the other half before their own oppressors.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They had to pass the tax bill via reconciliation because of the filibuster and reconciliation rules shrank the initial proposal from ~$7 trillion to ~$1.8 trillion Yeah no poo poo my point was it wasn't much of a tradeoff since the other party is just handing their sacrifice right back to them one term later, so no poo poo they weren't going to repeal the filibuster why bother when your friends across the aisle will fall on that sword to give your golf buddies their tax deductions back anyway
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Nov 5, 2021 20:11
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Sharkie posted:They did not. Narrator: They did https://www.natlawreview.com/article/budget-reconciliation-use-recent-years
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Nov 5, 2021 20:11
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Sanguinia posted:I don't know how anyone can come away from this thread feeling anything but total nihilistic despair. Every time I read it the same conclusions pop out: the things that Dems do are pointless and useless and will lose them votes, the things Dems could theoretically do will lose them votes despite helping people and thus be undone, the Republicans can do literally anything and never be punished for it because they give people permission to be bigoted, giving people permission to hurt disadvantaged groups is not enough reason for most Americans to oppose Republicans no matter how much the Republican policies will also hurt them because Democrats won't help them, and the only solution to all this is a revolution that will never happen because half the people that would be necessary for it are fascists who would kill the other half before their own oppressors. To be fair, an internet forum with the steep barrier to access of  probably isn't the best place to openly talk about direct action against the state.(Which is why I think some posters like to try and specifically bait out specific talk of direct action when you point out that meaningful change likely isn't coming via elections)
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Nov 5, 2021 20:11
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Sharkie posted:They did not. Yeah, they did. They had 52 votes in the Senate, Bob Corker voted against the initial draft bill, and McCain was out because of his cancer, so they didn't have a spare vote. It was passed via reconciliation specifically because it was unable to overcome a filibuster. VitalSigns posted:Did the filibuster even really stop them, yeah they had to add it in to get other stuff they wanted, and now the other party is sacrificing stuff they promised to do in order give Jersey Republicans their deductions back, so what did the filibuster cost the GOP exactly? The only thing it made them give up in the tax bill is mostly being handed right back by the other party for free, actually for free with a bonus because it's unpopular so not only do they get it they get to blame it on the Democrats Changing the SALT cap to have an income limit instead of a deduction limit is not even close to making up a $5.3 trillion reduction in tax cuts. SALT isn't unpopular either. Nobody cares about it except for the people who benefit. The SALT change was actually the second least popular part of the TCJA at the time. The Republicans didn't shrink their tax cuts to 1/6th the size of their original proposal as part of an intentional legislative judo move. quote:A House-passed proposal to limit deductions for state and local taxes, which drew 13 dissenting GOP votes earlier this month, is increasingly unpopular with voters, a new Morning Consult/Politico poll shows. https://morningconsult.com/2017/11/29/voters-increasingly-oppose-proposed-tax-deduction-changes/
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Nov 5, 2021 20:19
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, they did. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Narrator: They did So they could have changed the rules but Democratic Party members didn't want to, got it.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:22
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, they did. quote:SALT isn't unpopular either. Nobody cares about it except for the people who benefit. The SALT change was actually the second least popular part of the TCJA at the time. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 20:23
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Sharkie posted:So they could have changed the rules but Democratic Party members didn't want to, got it. At the time the Democrats were in the minority do they could not have. The GOP could have I guess, but they didn't need to be the one to fall in that grenade when they could use reconciliation. The Democrats could now however, and I think they should, but the GOP will benefit from that. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 20:23
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TCJA was passed under reconciliation. They did not NEED to because as the majority party, the republicans could eliminate the filibuster at any time. It is not a constitutional limitation.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:25
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Gonna have some votes today! https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1456699254819463178 The BBB vote is just on the rule, not the actual vote to send it of to the senate. I guess we will see if the BIB vote passes. Seems unlikely tho : https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1456704923387707392 plogo fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 20:25
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VitalSigns posted:This is just wrong, they confirmed three supreme court justices even though none of them had the votes to overcome a filibuster. They did not have to pass the tcja under reconciliation rules, they wanted to. No. They did not want to shrink their bill by ~70%, force 10-year sunset provisions, and make politically painful votes. They only had one spare vote and multiple Republicans did not support eliminating the filibuster. Democrats were filibustering and reconciliation is how they passed it. They did not gut their own bill and make unpopular choices that weren't necessary as part of a master plan. Trump himself was calling on the Senate to eliminate the filibuster during this period because it was forcing him to slash the tax cuts. quote:The very outdated filibuster rule must go. Budget reconciliation is killing R's in Senate. Mitch M, go to 51 Votes NOW and WIN. IT'S TIME! quote:Republicans in the Senate will NEVER win if they don't go to a 51 vote majority NOW. They look like fools and are just wasting time......8 Dems totally control the U.S. Senate.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No. They did not want to shrink their bill by ~70%, force 10-year sunset provisions, and make politically painful votes. So what? None of this is controlling the Democratic Party members that are in control, now, in real life, in the year 2021. Also I'm pretty sure that 70% number is way off, do you have a source for that?
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Nov 5, 2021 20:37
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No. They did not want to shrink their bill by ~70%, force 10-year sunset provisions, and make politically painful votes.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:38
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Lib and let die posted:To be fair, an internet forum with the steep barrier to access of Thank you for this post, and entirely accurate.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:38
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Sharkie posted:So what? None of this is controlling the Democratic Party members that are in control, now, in real life, in the year 2021. It was literally just posted in a post you quoted. $7.8 trillion to $1.8 trillion is a 76.923% reduction if you want to get exact. quote:The Tax Policy Center estimated that the Administration’s April outline would have cut taxes by $7.8 trillion over 10 years. quote:By September, Hill and White House negotiators downsized the net tax cut to about $2.4 trillion. quote:The final bill will reduce revenue by about $1.3 trillion over the coming decade, even after including its effects on the overall economy, TPC estimates. quote:Without any adjustment for economic gains, the final bill is estimated to cost about $1.8 trillion over 10 years. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/how-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-evolved
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Nov 5, 2021 20:45
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They had to pass the tax bill via reconciliation because of the filibuster and reconciliation rules shrank the initial proposal from ~$7 trillion to ~$1.8 trillion (and that $1.8 trillion also required them to raise the corporate rate to 21% from 15%, cap SALT, make the income tax cuts expire in 2027, and no longer index the standard deduction to inflation; none of which they wanted to do). DST reform or whatever you'd like to call it has been slowing gaining traction over a period of decades, because most science rejects it as helpful and points out how it is actively harmful. Children going to school in the dark or whatever not withstanding.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It was literally just posted in a post you quoted. Ok that's what I thought, 70% was a wrong number. VitalSigns posted:So you agree they could have eliminated the filibuster but chose not to (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 5, 2021 20:48
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Sanguinia posted:I don't know how anyone can come away from this thread feeling anything but total nihilistic despair. Every time I read it the same conclusions pop out: the things that Dems do are pointless and useless and will lose them votes, the things Dems could theoretically do will lose them votes despite helping people and thus be undone, the Republicans can do literally anything and never be punished for it because they give people permission to be bigoted, giving people permission to hurt disadvantaged groups is not enough reason for most Americans to oppose Republicans no matter how much the Republican policies will also hurt them because Democrats won't help them, and the only solution to all this is a revolution that will never happen because half the people that would be necessary for it are fascists who would kill the other half before their own oppressors. I feel ya. This thread is not the real world, where thousands upon thousands of good people are working hard and doing their damndest to make change. This thread doesn't represent them, or Americans in general. I spend every day working in coalitions of extremely dedicated people who understand the grim reality of the world and have dedicated their lives and their time to trying to make things better. Getting involved is the best thing anybody can do. Joining up with other people to effect change in the world is the cure to nihilism. Posting all day about how much the world sucks and can never get better on the internet helps nobody, most especially the poster themselves. People want to vent, sure, fine, but the more I've gotten involved in activism the easier it is to just let the caterwauling slide right off me. There's actual work to be done, in the real world, with real consequences.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:51
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Manchin now saying his problem with the bill is that, because they had to shrink it (partially because of demands from Senator Joe Manchin III), that now some programs are scheduled to end in 6 years, 4 years, or two years instead of 10 and that they should fund everything for 10 years. https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/1456612937406296065
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Nov 5, 2021 20:55
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I think I just bruised my head slamming it into desk in response to that. gently caress you Manchin
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Nov 5, 2021 20:59
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