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I feel like "what is going to give" is the impression that Manchin has any interest in passing anything at all. Every time we get "close" he comes up with some new impossible demand. Let's hope that he both (a) really wants that infrastructure bill and (b) really believes that there is a large enough group of progressives (it would only take a few) to kill it if they don't get what they want. e, below post: Meatball posted:He's not negotiating in good faith and apparently nobody in the house or senate has noticed. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 21:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Manchin now saying his problem with the bill is that, because they had to shrink it (partially because of demands from Senator Joe Manchin III), that now some programs are scheduled to end in 6 years, 4 years, or two years instead of 10 and that they should fund everything for 10 years. That's because he doesn't want the bill to pass at all and is giving contradictory reasons to block it. Didn't he want the durations cut to trim the cost, and this is him going back on himself again? He's not negotiating in good faith and apparently nobody in the house or senate has noticed.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:03
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Meatball posted:He's not negotiating in good faith and apparently nobody in the house or senate has noticed. Maybe they're not acting in good faith either.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:10
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Lib and let die posted:To be fair, an internet forum with the steep barrier to access of "Democracy has failed. I am willing to engage in "direct action" against the government" and "I am not willing to risk either $10 or being unable to post on an internet forum for a few hours" don't really seem like beliefs you can hold simultaneously.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:11
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probably isn't the best place to openly talk about direct action against the state.
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Meatball posted:That's because he doesn't want the bill to pass at all and is giving contradictory reasons to block it. Didn't he want the durations cut to trim the cost, and this is him going back on himself again? Why do you suppose Jayapal is refusing to vote on the BIP?
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Nov 5, 2021 21:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Democracy has failed. I am willing to engage in "direct action" against the government" and "I am not willing to risk either $10 or being unable to post on an internet forum for a few hours" don't really seem like beliefs you can hold simultaneously. i literally could not afford to rereg if i ate a ban and being that i live in covid hellworld florida, my avenues for social engagement responsibly are pretty limited, so, yeah, i'd rather not risk my forum account to take the bait into calling for actual heads of actual people. i'm not suited for the front line of the PRA anyway. I've got two bum arms, a bum leg, and am a medical liability due to my epilepsy. i'm better suited to mess hall duty.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:13
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Democracy has failed. I am willing to engage in "direct action" against the government" and "I am not willing to risk either $10 or being unable to post on an internet forum for a few hours" don't really seem like beliefs you can hold simultaneously. anyone asking you to declare approval for direct action against the government online is an FBI agent
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Nov 5, 2021 21:22
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Meatball posted:He's not negotiating in good faith and apparently nobody in the house or senate has noticed. What would they do about it if they did notice
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Nov 5, 2021 21:24
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paranoid randroid posted:anyone asking you to declare approval for direct action against the government online is an FBI agent yeah it's very obviously bait and I don't know why it doesn't get punished. i brought it up in the feedback thread (one of them) and I guess it's not something worth making any changes in D&D for so 
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Nov 5, 2021 21:27
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How is it bait to say they you're not living up to your rhetoric? At least I think that is what is being implied.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:28
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Democracy has failed. I am willing to engage in "direct action" against the government" and "I am not willing to risk either $10 or being unable to post on an internet forum for a few hours" don't really seem like beliefs you can hold simultaneously. How should I read this if not as a goad towards direct action? Are you accusing people of lying about their stance on the possibility of political change (and to what end?), or trying to get them to do a crime? Because either way, lol. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:How is it bait to say they you're not living up to your rhetoric? At least I think that is what is being implied. It either amounts to an accusation of bad faith/being a dipshit, in which case OP should probably just say those things directly instead of archly pointing out contradictions, or calls for them to live up to it, which is beyond the pale for the forums, as we are repeatedly reminded. The actual effect, regardless, is to paint "the current political system is completely intractable, and no path forward is visible that meets our problems in a timely fashion" as an unacceptably alarmist thing to say, despite being an obviously true thing everyone in the thread seems to agree on. e: like, for real, the flow of events here is "this thread is so depressing, everyone here insists nothing is possible and that direct action is a fantasy" -> "I agree, but keep in mind no one will discuss direct action here because we all agree it's not appropriate" -> a mod literally steps in to agree we should not discuss direct action -> "Oh, so you won't discuss direct action? Cowardly." It's laughable lmao. Valentin fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 21:28
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Lib and let die posted:yeah it's very obviously bait and I don't know why it doesn't get punished. i brought it up in the feedback thread (one of them) and I guess it's not something worth making any changes in D&D for so I mean this website has a forum with the 1/6 capitol as a background so put two and two together
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Nov 5, 2021 21:31
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Admitting that the system is broken (it is) and that discussion of said system, whether it's the nitty-gritty technicals of party politics, voting, polls, legislative rules, powers of the branches, laws, personalities etc. OR generalities of how/why it's broken, even potential solutions is spinning our wheels does not equate to desiring armed revolution or to convince people to go on a mass strike. Labor and political organization doesn't happen here. At best some mutual aid occurs (which people should do irl, along with participating in labor orgs). People on all "sides" here vent and that's okay
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Nov 5, 2021 21:34
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I mean this website has a forum with the 1/6 capitol as a background so put two and two together Ahh yeah good point, I see the connection. That subforum is funny and 1/6 was also funny
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Nov 5, 2021 21:34
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Manchin now saying his problem with the bill is that, because they had to shrink it (partially because of demands from Senator Joe Manchin III), that now some programs are scheduled to end in 6 years, 4 years, or two years instead of 10 and that they should fund everything for 10 years. Is this a game or does his House Boat palace have a gas leak? What the gently caress is wrong with this dude's scrambled egg brain? 
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Nov 5, 2021 21:38
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TulliusCicero posted:Is this a game or does his House Boat palace have a gas leak? His master's whip hit his intestinal tract one too many times so hes making GBS threads out of his mouth
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Nov 5, 2021 21:40
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TulliusCicero posted:Is this a game or does his House Boat palace have a gas leak? I think it's just really hard to come up with reasons not to do something, when you're not willing to just say "I don't wanna do it," without looking like a weird idiot.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:How is it bait to say they you're not living up to your rhetoric? At least I think that is what is being implied. Agreed. If you're gonna go off on a tear about how the system needs to be torn down and revolution is the only real solution then it's perfectly reasonable for somebody to ask you how that's going to happen, to ask who is putting their money where their mouth is. I'm putting *my* money where my mouth is. My mouth says "activism and people power can change our system" and that's what I'm trying to do. Revolutionaries who  are worth about as much as the Vice Presidency of the United States.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:46
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How are u posted:Agreed. If you're gonna go off on a tear about how the system needs to be torn down and revolution is the only real solution then it's perfectly reasonable for somebody to ask you how that's going to happen, to ask who is putting their money where their mouth is. Yeah sounds like you're really accomplishing a lot
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Nov 5, 2021 21:50
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I mean, even posting about maintaining a community garden on someone's property is breaking laws in some districts/cities. Even that level of organization can be compromising on a site where people often post more personal details about themselves than they should
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Nov 5, 2021 21:54
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TulliusCicero posted:Is this a game or does his House Boat palace have a gas leak? It makes perfect sense to him - he wants those programs to have barely any funding under his $1.5T demand so that no one even notices them or they just piss off people because of how little they do to help them. Progressives know that if they can even get these good programs started for a short time it will be a grenade ready to go off for anybody in the future that is given the choice of continuing them or letting them expire. Manchin knows that.
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Nov 5, 2021 21:54
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How are u posted:Agreed. If you're gonna go off on a tear about how the system needs to be torn down and revolution is the only real solution then it's perfectly reasonable for somebody to ask you how that's going to happen, to ask who is putting their money where their mouth is. People declining to post about their direct action doesn't necessarily mean they are not engaging in any. Edit: Also, does 'direct action' always mean crimes.txt? Can't it also mean like, giving sandwiches to the homeless or trying to unionize a workplace? Hellblazer187 fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 21:58
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It's absolutely bait amd trolling to ask people to describe how to sabotage or destroy the government. It's literally telling people to describe planning or doing something illegal, which can get them and the site in trouble. Holy moly.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:00
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Hey so why did we rename this the “US Current Events” thread if the mods and IKs aren’t going to do anything about days and days of circular slapfights about primarychat and electoralism?Eric Cantonese posted:Is there a moderate (heh) chance that the CBO score also helps preempt any stupidity that Manchin and Sinema (and anyone silently encouraging them) want to engage in? Well. There is one thing.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:01
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AmiYumi posted:Hey so why did we rename this the “US Current Events” thread if the mods and IKs aren’t going to do anything about days and days of circular slapfights about primarychat and electoralism? We just had an election. One might call that a Current Event. It makes sense that people would continue on to talk about elections in general. I am sorry your team is doing poorly.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:03
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Lib and let die posted:yeah it's very obviously bait and I don't know why it doesn't get punished. i brought it up in the feedback thread (one of them) and I guess it's not something worth making any changes in D&D for so I wasn't going after you in particular. I just thought it was funny to say "we have nothing left to lose; except the ability to post temporarily" because it's very SA.txt and was just dryly making a joke about it. I haven't read the mod feedback thread, but is "too many people are being tricked into revealing their assassination plans" actually something that has been discussed multiple times? lol
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Nov 5, 2021 22:03
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AmiYumi posted:Hey so why did we rename this the “US Current Events” thread if the mods and IKs aren’t going to do anything about days and days of circular slapfights about primarychat and electoralism? Indeed. A sternly worded letter from Speaker Pelosi will put him right in his place! Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I wasn't going after you in particular. I just thought it was funny to say "we have nothing left to lose; except the ability to post temporarily" it's very SA.txt and was just dryly making a joke about it. No, it's not really an issue because most of us are smart enough to disengage when the bait is presented. The issue is that the baiting behavior is enabled, and further, encouraged, by not getting dinged. Calling for violence is a guaranteed ban+30 if not a perma. trying to bait posters into putting out detailed screeds of how to take action against the US government should be, bare minimum, a "don't do that" sixer. e: Mellow Seas posted:OK, well, do you see how someone coming into a thread where most people believe in voting and campaigning and saying "heh, voting is for suckers oh, dear, i'm terribly sorry, i didn't realize this thread was exclusively for people that believe in electoralism. could you quote the part of the OP or the mod/ik post that says this is the thread for electorlaism believers only? Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 22:07
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Lib and let die posted:No, it's not really an issue because most of us are smart enough to disengage when the bait is presented. The issue is that the baiting behavior is enabled, and further, encouraged, by not getting dinged. Calling for violence is a guaranteed ban+30 if not a perma. trying to bait posters into putting out detailed screeds of how to take action against the US government should be, bare minimum, a "don't do that" sixer. OK, well, do you see how someone coming into a thread where most people believe in voting and campaigning and saying "heh, voting is for suckers  " and refusing to elaborate is also pretty frustrating?If somebody is baiting you, just don't take it. It seems like most advocates of direct action around here handle the situation just fine; I don't see many people getting banned for violent posting.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I wasn't going after you in particular. I just thought it was funny to say "we have nothing left to lose; except the ability to post temporarily" because it's very SA.txt and was just dryly making a joke about it. Common requests is to probate bad-faith arguments and trolling. That isn't a cspam vs d&d thing or leftist vs liberal thing, imo, because those dichotomies are bullshit. If d&d is to be the serious debate forum then it should be treated as such by posters and the mods unless a truly funny troll comes about (like tobleronetriangulum). If this is to be a pure current events thread then let's establish that just like we had separate threads for uspol, chat and a pure current events thread (which was slow and died). You post a lot of info and frequently defend your positions with sources. I might disagree with you but you'll never see me knock you for that and I'll defend you, for doing it, too.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:10
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AmiYumi posted:Hey so why did we rename this the “US Current Events” thread if the mods and IKs aren’t going to do anything about days and days of circular slapfights about primarychat and electoralism? Debate and Drumsticks > US, Currently On Vacation (Do Not Disturb) The "US" refers to the mods 
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Nov 5, 2021 22:11
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TulliusCicero posted:Is this a game or does his House Boat palace have a gas leak? He's setting up to kill the bill while making himself look like the good guy by saying he wanted it to be more fiscally responsible and to help more people, and he knows the media will never call him on his lies and the fact that he's the reason it's neither. Manchin: "You can only spend $5 and 4 of them have to be tax cuts for me and my friends" Biden and Pelosi: "Okay" Manchin: "Oh my god there's only $1 of help for regular people in a bill that costs 5 times as much, typical Washington pork and waste I can't support Bernie's irresponsible agenda to bankrupt the treasury for a woke agenda that doesn't mean anything for ordinary Americans" Jake Tapper: "oh my stars 😍 he's so reasonable and fiscally responsible and not only that he's fighting for more help for the people he's just like FDR" Manchin: "so sad another initiative killed by typical Washington bickering all coming from AOC of course, but don't worry we can still get that tax cut done with the help of my Republican friends" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 22:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I haven't read the mod feedback thread, but is "too many people are being tricked into revealing their assassination plans" actually something that has been discussed multiple times? lol Yes, the subject has come up before in threads like this. eviltastic posted:Asking about details of direct action and essentially demanding posters prove themselves regarding the subject is not a reasonable request in the same manner that, say, quizzing someone about other political activism, door knocking, and proving they aren't a slacktivist or are otherwise engaged would be. Part of the answer to your question is going to be "because I'm not bragging about the deets on the Something Awful Forums". e: to be clear, the issue is that someone actually interested or involved in direct action or organizing has a lot more to lose than their chance to shitpost, and would accordingly be circumspect about it on a forum like this one. eviltastic fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 22:22
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The NRCC memo advising candidates on the issues to run on in 2022 seems to be the official plan as of now. The Republican Study Committee has now released a memo with the same conclusions. I guess it depends on where the most vulnerable seats are, but I am kind of surprised that they are only doing a sort of half-hearted "high taxes" angle and downplaying jobs, the economy, and healthcare. Maybe education and all those umbrella issues are evergreen, and it makes sense to plan around that because the economy and other issues can change in a year. I could be wrong, but minimizing the economy in favor of "education" seems like a bad midterm strategy. https://twitter.com/akarl_smith/status/1456725342853509132 quote:National Republicans are moving swiftly to elevate the culture debate about schools as part of their strategy to regain control of Congress in next year's midterms, after GOP Gov.-elect Glenn Youngkin of Virginia made parental involvement in education a core theme of his winning campaign in a blue state. quote:In a memo Tuesday to members of the Republican Study Committee, a group of conservative House members, Banks wrote, "The concerns of parents need to be a tier 1 policy issue for Republicans." Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Nov 5, 2021 |
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Nov 5, 2021 22:22
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The NRCC memo advising candidates on the issues to run on in 2022 seems to be the official plan as of now. The Republican Study Committee has now released a memo with the same conclusions. I fully expect the Democrats to learn exactly nothing from the complete loving failure of Third Way idiocy and chase suburban votes that are more than happy to shift back to voting for their friendly neighborhood white supremacist golf buddy, if it means they have full control over education
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Nov 5, 2021 22:35
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Anyone involved with direct action will not generally post about it, and if you don't understand why that is then I'd encourage you to participate in direct action yourself and come back here to tell us all about it
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Nov 5, 2021 22:35
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I shot the Austrian Archduke what are you nerds doing for Serbia (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 5, 2021 22:37
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TulliusCicero posted:I fully expect the Democrats to learn exactly nothing from the complete loving failure of Third Way idiocy and chase suburban votes that are more than happy to shift back to voting for their friendly neighborhood white supremacist golf buddy, if it means they have full control over education Third Way themselves - as in the actual organization - is actually advocating for more spending in the reconciliation bill and slagging Manchin and Sinema for their obstruction, so if they've learned something I assume the party as a whole has as well. Republicans could absolutely gently caress up their midterms with a bad strategy; I think a lot of people forget here that Republicans are just as incompetent and stupid as Democrats, which is why we beat 'em in elections nearly half the time. The Democratic messaging on education issues should be better than McAuliffe managed, now that the arguments are less novel (and some, not all, of their candidates will be less stupid than McAuliffe). There is also a chance that schools could start up with minimal staffing issues or mask mandates in the fall of '22, that would undermine them pretty badly. VitalSigns posted:I shot the Austrian Archduke what are you nerds doing for Serbia 
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Nov 5, 2021 22:40
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should we start a poll to see how to handle people who advocate for direct action?
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Nov 5, 2021 22:45
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The NRCC memo advising candidates on the issues to run on in 2022 seems to be the official plan as of now. The Republican Study Committee has now released a memo with the same conclusions. Having kids cooped up at home doing remote learning during the pandemic has made schools and child policy more prominent in parents' minds than usual, I'd imagine.
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Nov 5, 2021 22:47
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Mellow Seas posted:Third Way themselves - as in the actual organization - is actually advocating for more spending in the reconciliation bill and slagging Manchin and Sinema for their obstruction, so if they've learned something I assume the party as a whole has as well. Arguably, Republicans are better at culture war issues though, so pushing an amorphous scare makes perfect sense. I also haven’t seen a good Democratic response yet; “but what about Trump” ain’t it.
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