|
https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1456807575681474562 Apparently at least some of the progressives are still not convinced.
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:40 |
|
|
Moderates promise to Jayapal has been given to the press. A hard promise to vote for BBB on Nov. 15 if there is no CBO score by then, to vote on BBB immediately if the CBO score is consistent with the White House Budget Estimate the west wing released yesterday, and a commitment to keep working on the bill if CBO and White House don't match rather than voting it down. https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1456808527058571265 Pelosi is apparently still circling the room talking to people. Jayapal is gathering up reporters to make a statement. AOC and Talib have said they're No votes right now, and AOC said "This is bullshit." VVV The exact words in the statement were that the CBO score is bad the moderates "remain committed to resolving any discrepancies and pass," the bill Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Nov 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:26
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Moderates promise to Jayapal has been given to the press. A hard promise to vote for BBB on Nov. 15 if there is no CBO score by then, to vote on BBB immediately if the CBO score is consistent with the White House Budget Estimate the west wing released yesterday, and a commitment to keep working on the bill if CBO and White House don't match rather than voting it down. I'm having trouble parsing this sentence. It's a promise to vote for it, but if the CBO score is bad they're only promising to not vote it down? AOC is onto something methinks
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:29
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:I'm having trouble parsing this sentence. It's a promise to vote for it, but if the CBO score is bad they're only promising to not vote it down? AOC is onto something methinks She is. It should be obvious now that the Democratic Party does not care about their voters but only their donors. I recall many people picking polls they liked and ignoring the obvious writing on the wall prior to the election this week. Then those same people scolded leftists for daring to say it is better for the selfish moderates to lose. Now we are witnessing the true values of the Democratic Party. Absolutely shameful that anyone would suggest Dems as the party of harm reduction or the lesser of two evils. Privileged scumbags. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Nov 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:32
|
|
|
Never trust a moderate
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:35
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:I'm having trouble parsing this sentence. It's a promise to vote for it, but if the CBO score is bad they're only promising to not vote it down? AOC is onto something methinks I think it means that if the CBO score is off from current projections, they'll go back to dismantling stuff inside the bill until the CBO isn't bad instead of immediately dismissing the bill out of hand. But as far as I can tell that is bullshit, because the house itself isn't really the problem. The senate is, and Gottheimer can't speak for Manchin and the gang. And as far as I can understand it, the CBO would be different from whatever the senate ends up doing anyway, so it's essentially just a "hey, if you let us do this thing, we'll take what you actually want through a long process for no reason and then get rid of it over a period of months rather than just shooting it down right now."
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:35
|
|
|
HonorableTB posted:What's this about the Steele dossier? I must have missed that https://www.npr.org/2021/11/04/1052346058/a-key-source-for-the-infamous-trump-russia-dossier-is-charged-with-lying-to-the- Igor Danchenko, Steele's primary source in the dossier, was arrested and charged with five counts of lying to the FBI when they interviewed him about his sources in 2017. NY Times broke the story the other day. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/04/us/politics/igor-danchenko-arrested-steele-dossier.html
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:39
|
|
|
Jayapal took the deal. Progressive Caucus votes yes on BIF, Moderates vote on a House Rule binding them to their promise to vote yes by Nov 15. https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1456812369435406336 Unclear if The Squad is going along with this. 4 votes might be enough to make a difference if there's zero Rs. Also worth noting: it's not in the Mods interest to kill BBB entirely anymore thanks to the SALT revival the other day. That's probably why it happened, in retrospect. https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1456813891632123907 Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Nov 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:39
|
|
|
Matt Fuller is usually right about stuff like this. https://twitter.com/MEPFuller/status/1456814364875542530 e: I meant as to the first part, as to the last bit he probably shoulda said "would mean" in that last bit, he's not saying that part's happening eviltastic fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Nov 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:45
|
|
|
lol Jayapal is such a joke
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:45
|
|
|
gently caress the mods. This is them saying we know we're trying to ratfuck you when we said we wouldn't, but if you let us ratfuck you now we promise not to ratfuck you later. Political power grows from exercise of political power. Allowing themselves to be hosed like this weakens them for all future negotiations. They laid out their red line, show that they mean what they say, though the heavens fall.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:45
|
|
|
Ershalim posted:I think it means that if the CBO score is off from current projections, they'll go back to dismantling stuff inside the bill until the CBO isn't bad instead of immediately dismissing the bill out of hand. But as far as I can tell that is bullshit, because the house itself isn't really the problem. The senate is, and Gottheimer can't speak for Manchin and the gang. Yeah I'm actually coming around to the idea that maybe a somewhat more moderate, traditional liberal-conservatism, ala Romney winning in 2012, is actually superior to the Democrats. Because the Democrats are just apocalyptically incompetent, and lead to people like Trump getting elected. It's not just a center-right party, it's a center-right party that can't win elections and can't govern, yet refuses to acknowledge reality and act accordingly. Like Merkel's party in Germany is a center-right party, but it can win elections and can govern in a reasonably competent manner. German goons have many legitimate complaints about her, but I don't see at this point how a stable government of that type is not just superior to whatever the gently caress the Democrats are doing. Disasters all the way down
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:46
|
|
|
Infinite Lucys pulling away infinite footballs
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:49
|
|
|
guys don't worry BBB will be passed by christmas. A christmas miracle one would say
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:52
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:Yeah I'm actually coming around to the idea that maybe a somewhat more moderate, traditional liberal-conservatism, ala Romney winning in 2012, is actually superior to the Democrats. This will never happen, any hope that this would happen died in Virginia this week when Diet Trump won by being less openly racist than Trump while also promising to take a flamethrower to schools and purify them of every book and fact that might ever make a white person feel bad. It's Democrats or Fascists for the rest of your life.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:52
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Jayapal took the deal. Progressive Caucus votes yes on BIF, Moderates vote on a House Rule binding them to their promise to vote yes by Nov 15. Liberals are enablers of bullies and abusers. Those that continue to chant “vote blue no matter who” or “but what if the republicans win” are immoral either because of their fear or because of their privilege. I have no idea why people put so much energy into a party that actively hates them and pretends to do so under the guise of inclusiveness. Voting for bad dems is, and always has been, continuing the path of fascism and destroying the earth and its living creatures. Defending voting for bad dems and shaming those who will not partake in the cruelty is obscene and depraved In other words, if you continue to support Dems: https://youtu.be/5pUSX9kvARQ
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:53
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:
A bit more than four years ago, Republicans failed to take healthcare away from millions of Americans because of a fluke. Four years later, Democrats are squabbling about how to spend a few $T. Clearly evil to the same degree. No difference at all.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:53
|
|
|
TheIncredulousHulk posted:lol Jayapal is such a joke Nah, I don't think so. It was taken as far as it could and it's obvious everything is gearing up to blame the Progressives regardless. It is what it is for now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:53
|
|
|
If they're going to blame progressives anyways... then maybe progressives should stick to their guns? I don't get how "you're getting blamed no matter what" means "so therefore you should give us all your leverage"
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:56
|
|
|
morothar posted:A bit more than four years ago, Republicans failed to take healthcare away from millions of Americans because of a fluke. You mean the same Republicans that the president and Pelosi openly say they want to be strong? There's always something worse. Diseases, governments, serial killers, whatever. There's always something worse. It doesn't mean that the other one is good. You do not in fact have to spend your time and your vote supporting them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 03:58
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:This will never happen, any hope that this would happen died in Virginia this week when Diet Trump won by being less openly racist than Trump while also promising to take a flamethrower to schools and purify them of every book and fact that might ever make a white person feel bad. It's Democrats or Fascists for the rest of your life. I'm not saying it's actually possible, I'm just saying that the Democrats are objectively worse in almost every way, more conservative, incompetent, corrupt, than most first world countries' conservative parties. And therefore in a harm-reduction/lesser of two evils sense, you'd rather have them governing than the Democrats
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:02
|
|
|
why does anyone give a single gently caress what house moderates want
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:02
|
|
|
Dubar posted:why does anyone give a single gently caress what house moderates want They vote on bills?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:03
|
|
|
morothar posted:A bit more than four years ago, Republicans failed to take healthcare away from millions of Americans because of a fluke. Did you just gloss over the Democratic Party systematically removing every social benefit from the BBB reconciliation bill, but ensuring rich folks get their SALT wish AND make it retroactive, only to kill it anyway so they could side with repliblicans to place blame at progressives as “oh just figuring out how to spend a few bucks, no big deal” loving shameless.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:03
|
|
|
Gatts posted:Nah, I don't think so. It was taken as far as it could and it's obvious everything is gearing up to blame the Progressives regardless. It is what it is for now. vvv Hellblazer187 posted:If they're going to blame progressives anyways... then maybe progressives should stick to their guns? I don't get how "you're getting blamed no matter what" means "so therefore you should give us all your leverage" Nobody's ever going to take any of her threats seriously again
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:04
|
|
|
Can we have a moment of silence for the BBB, which is now in a coffin
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:05
|
|
|
Hellblazer187 posted:If they're going to blame progressives anyways... then maybe progressives should stick to their guns? I don't get how "you're getting blamed no matter what" means "so therefore you should give us all your leverage" If them getting blamed is what's destined to happen, the logical argument might be that they were about to lose this leverage anyway. If things descend into blame gaming in the media before anything gets accomplished, and we assume they would inevitably lose the media fight, their leverage dies anyway. So the better move is to put it on the table, get what you can get for it, and toss the dice. Either it all turns to poo poo and you get blamed, which would have happened if you didn't try as well, or good things happen and you reap the benefits because you played ball at the key moment rather than holding out for better odds. I'm not saying I endorse this logic, but its logic that makes sense. If your options really have come down to Lose or Try And Probably Lose But Maybe Have A Tiny Chane To Win, better the latter.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:06
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:They vote on bills? Let's not go crazy here, you can't go around insinuating the government actually does things, you extremist. TheIncredulousHulk posted:Nobody's ever going to take any of her threats seriously again If we were simply interested in power dynamics, the correct thing to do would be to spike both bills and set the building on fire, but those aren't exactly actions without any side effects. I think for Jayapal, the chance of getting something good for some people now and maybe some more good for more people later outweighs the potential for the progressive caucus to be seen as a larger threat in some yet unknown future conflict. It's not a call I would like to have to make myself, honestly. I can see why the progressives are naturally more inclined to fold here because they actually do care about the people of the country. At least a little.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1456815201458720768?s=20 For the vote blue no matter who crew, Trump making the perfect post to twist the knife. It’s too easy because the Democrats have zero shame and self awareness.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:13
|
|
|
Sharkie posted:There's always something worse. Diseases, governments, serial killers, whatever. There's always something worse. It doesn't mean that the other one is good. You do not in fact have to spend your time and your vote supporting them. I’d love to see an expanded analogy that explains how “taking healthcare away from millions” is merely ‘something worse’ relative to “squabbling over how to spend $T on beneficial causes” virtualboyCOLOR posted:Did you just gloss over the Democratic Party systematically removing every social benefit from the BBB reconciliation bill, but ensuring rich folks get their SALT wish AND make it retroactive, only to kill it anyway so they could side with repliblicans to place blame at progressives as “oh just figuring out how to spend a few bucks, no big deal” Nothing has been killed at this point. Everybody is just being dramatic, as usual. But feel free to elaborate how pre-K, CTC, healthcare spending, climate spending, etc. have been completely removed from the bill.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:13
|
|
|
morothar posted:Nothing has been killed at this point. Everybody is just being dramatic, as usual. In your mind, what would motivate House moderates to ratfuck progressives to pass the BIF before BBB unless they were working to undermine the passage of BBB?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:16
|
|
|
It's a bit gauche that the build back better bill decided to dress up as a ghost in november
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:16
|
|
|
One thing to note is that if BBB doesn’t pass, the mods don’t get SALT.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:18
|
|
|
Baronash posted:In your mind, what would motivate House moderates to ratfuck progressives to pass the BIF before BBB unless they were working to undermine the passage of BBB? It's a good sign that the moderates worked with the Republicans, I say, somehow without clawing out my own eyes
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:18
|
|
|
Baronash posted:In your mind, what would motivate House moderates to ratfuck progressives to pass the BIF before BBB unless they were working to undermine the passage of BBB? House moderates don't really want to kill BBB entirely. The main problem is that Manchin and Sinema have the final say because the Senate hasn't voted on it and the assurances from the House moderates to pass the House version of the bill don't bind Sinema and Manchin in any way. The conflict between Progressives and House moderates was whether to pass it today or after the CBO score. The conflict with Progressives and Manchin/Sinema is that Manchin/Sinema have theoretically signed off on the overarching framework, but Progressives don't fully trust them to vote for it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:19
|
|
|
Ershalim posted:If we were simply interested in power dynamics, the correct thing to do would be to spike both bills and set the building on fire, but those aren't exactly actions without any side effects. I think for Jayapal, the chance of getting something good for some people now and maybe some more good for more people later outweighs the potential for the progressive caucus to be seen as a larger threat in some yet unknown future conflict. It's not a call I would like to have to make myself, honestly. In terms of only political power dynamics, its probably worth considering that up until now the media coverage of this fight on mainstream sources has been all about Manchin and Sinema vs Biden and Progressives. The House shuffle has been ignored outside political outlets like The Hill and whatnot. After Virginia, there is zero doubt in my mind that if Progressives had spiked Infrastructure tonight every story tomorrow would have been about them being the bad guy. By holding their ground tonight long enough to get an explicitly worded promise to vote on the bill as-is on a specific day, if nothing else they've kept the public eye on the Moderates and off themselves. They can say honestly that they did their part, and if the Moderates reneg on their black-and-white written deal for any reason other than the out they made for themselves, the CBO score, that is then the story every news show runs. I'm sure there will be a dozen replies to this post mocking and insulting me, but these are the things politicians think about when they're doing a politics. It's not as simple as the 1-to-1 political leverage of "vote for this or I won't for that and we both lose," but its still part of the game. The Progressives looked at the board, decided the hand they had was a losing one, and cashed it out for one they hope still has a chance to win. It's that simple.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:20
|
|
|
gently caress the moderates. They act like its still the 80s and that people still care about bipartisanship which is funny as gently caress considering we just got out of Trump land. I hope progressives stick to their guns and that these bills die. Vote blue no matter who is cancer.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:20
|
|
|
Ershalim posted:Let's not go crazy here, you can't go around insinuating the government actually does things, you extremist. The problem is that politics should be based in class-conscious self interest, not in middle-class philanthropic concern for unfortunate others
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:21
|
|
|
Bipartisan Infrastructure bill has passed, rip the BBB. Only concession the progressives got before folding was a written promise that those couple of moderates will, maybe, vote on the BBB later, worth exactly as much as the paper it was written on. Amazing how completely worthless the progressive caucus is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:40 |
|
|
morothar posted:A bit more than four years ago, Republicans failed to take healthcare away from millions of Americans because of a fluke. Yes I'm sure when the history books cover the American collapse they will dedicate a paragraph to how the Democrats were technically less bad.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 04:24
|
|
