|
VitalSigns posted:Why would this Nigerian Prince not share his Swiss bank account with me after I sent him my life savings as a good faith gesture? Your is an up is down black is white conspiracy theory. A really great way to get the economy to improve is to force a bunch of people who can't pay massive debt to start paying again!  Bing bong, so simple! These people are senile or evil: there's no in-between
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 06:35 |
|
|
Karl Barks posted:Because a huge swath (majority?) of the Democrat Party are hardcore capitalists who don’t believe in social spending in virtually any form? This is hardly a conspiracy. Social spending is not incompatible with capitalism, friend. There are countless capitalist nations around the world that do plenty of it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:09
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:Why would they want to sink the rest? That's the core of Biden's agenda and the stuff he was running on. "Biden's agenda" has already been cut up until it's about half of what was initially proposed, remains stalled in Congress to the point that the CPC entirely broke down, and you not only think the conservative Democrats don't want to keep cutting, but that it is a conspiracy theory to believe so. Black is white, up is down.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:16
|
|
|
How are u posted:Social spending is not incompatible with capitalism, friend. There are countless capitalist nations around the world that do plenty of it. Those are concessions to labor power capitalists are forced to accept due the unique power dynamics within those countries. Those material conditions don’t exist here, therefore the capitalists don’t have to make concessions. A capitalist political party by themself will likely never vote for increased social spending without the threat of labor power or social unrest. To be clear, Sinema and Manchin are merely the faces of the opposition, but of course there are many other Democrat reps who oppose social spending in the same exact way, but don’t want to be in the limelight. By narrowing the visible opposition down to 2 people, it’s much easier to trick people into thinking “vote them out” is a viable tactic. Karl Barks fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:17
|
|
|
Seph posted:This seems to be a non-sequitur response to my post that you used to rant against liberals. You'll notice I never once ascribed any of the characteristics I mentioned to a specific group of people. I was just describing ways that people can be irrationally against progressive goals even though that progress would be objectively beneficial to them. I think that irrationality is pervasive and one of the main reasons why people vote against their own interests.  There's no conspiracy holding the left down - they simply can't organize and messaging sucks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
How are u posted:Fingers crossed! I don't think the BBBA is dead and buried, but I don't think the drama is over either. The ride never ends.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:25
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:
There is no conspiracy, there's been open war for a century.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:26
|
|
|
How are u posted:Social spending is not incompatible with capitalism, friend. There are countless capitalist nations around the world that do plenty of it. You're right, I'm sure if we beg hard enough they'll give us enough table scraps to not starve to death  Fingers crossed!
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:"Biden's agenda" has already been cut up until it's about half of what was initially proposed, remains stalled in Congress to the point that the CPC entirely broke down, and you not only think the conservative Democrats don't want to keep cutting, but that it is a conspiracy theory to believe so. Even the "cut up" agenda is absolutely massive and will have far reaching (positive) consequences for the country. It's more like they intentionally overshot on their initial proposals so that even after the inevitable negotiations took place, the package would still end up being the biggest in generations.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:32
|
|
|
How are u posted:Social spending is not incompatible with capitalism, friend. There are countless capitalist nations around the world that do plenty of it. Western European countries only instituted their social welfare programs to safeguard against revolution. Non-Western countries mostly implemented theirs after revolutions. In either case, revolution or the threat thereof were necessary ingredients. Capital will otherwise never allow us to implement programs that limit their profits.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:There is no conspiracy, there's been open war for a century. Marxism isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s a lens that accurately describes the world. Money is power, and if you want to know why things are how they are, just find out who makes money off it being that way. It’s all done out in the open. It’s also, once you really internalize it, a source of comfort and even humor. Believing it can’t just be about the money drives all kinds of insane behaviors like toxic optimism and wishcasting and weird sexism and all kinds of just odd behavior from ostensibly rational adults trying to account for the behavior of democratic politicians. So the loyalists manifest reactions that anybody on the outside can see as obvious defense mechanisms rather than ideologically arrived-at conclusions. You can either wail and moan (which I still fall into the old habit of occasionally) or establish a similar comedy category for blinkered liberals the way we all have one for insane right wing conspiracy theorists. It’s funny to laugh at lanyards and HR types having their annual “but I thought I voted for the good guys” meltie once you recognize the insane levels of denial and self-delusion it takes to get them to a place where the cracks and pings come fast and wide. Marxist analysis is self-care for living in a declining empire.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:46
|
|
|
Vorik posted:Even the "cut up" agenda is absolutely massive and will have far reaching (positive) consequences for the country. It's more like they intentionally overshot on their initial proposals so that even after the inevitable negotiations took place, the package would still end up being the biggest in generations. I’m not exactly upset we’re finally spending money on infrastructure, as I like bridges not collapsing beneath me. But it’s important to acknowledge this is essentially a spending bill giving money directly to the Republican donor base, construction and development firms. It’s likely why we say more Republican yes than Dem nos. Again, this is at least partially because the two parties are indistinguishably right wing. We’ll see what happens with the other bill. I’m not optimistic, and betting on the worst outcome has been pretty safe for about 40+ years now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
VH4Ever posted:No see that's the wrong way to look at it. Don't stock a basement full of expiring food and forget your can opener like that jagoff in Texas a year ago. Consolidate poo poo down so you can flee if you need to, get essentials for yourself than can move easily or be abandoned if necessary, be mobile. I mean I'm not even earnestly saying I'm doing this, I plan to go down with the ship. But if you're not choosing that route, I don't know, think about what you'd do if life here became intolerable. Then make a plan. After 2022 and 2024 any ability to fight back electorally will be fully off the table. I'm interested. Got any resources?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:55
|
|
|
Yeah, as others said, other countries have strong social welfare because the power differential between capital and labor is balanced enough that capital can be threatened by labor. That power balance does not exist in America, capital has been utterly triumphant for decades, and it's only getting worse as the rich continue to accrue and hoard their share of the nation's wealth (and thus power). Yes, it is theoretically possible to maintain "healthy" capitalism by maintaining the balance between labor and capital, but that is an inherently delicate and unstable balance. It can easily be tipped in favor of capital, because even in capitalist countries with strong social welfare, capital still has dictatorial control over the economy. And from there it just snowballs, until you get to where we are right now in America, where there's no way to meaningfully put pressure on capital.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 18:57
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:A really great way to get the economy to improve is to force a bunch of people who can't pay massive debt to start paying again! it's the triumph of Reaganism if you have a good economy then people will be getting off assistance therefore you can measure the health of the economy by how much you managed to shrink assistance rolls if we need a student loan moratorium it means the economy is bad, so by neoliberal cargo cult reasoning if you kick everyone off an assistance program the economy must be good
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:01
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1457041536772976643?s=20 Will be interesting to see if the GOP yes voters will face any backlash from their base for voting for this bill. A lot of hoo-hawing from online repubs calling them the 12 RINOs but it remains to be seen if the average voter feels the same way. Karl Barks posted:I’m not exactly upset we’re finally spending money on infrastructure, as I like bridges not collapsing beneath me. But it’s important to acknowledge this is essentially a spending bill giving money directly to the Republican donor base, construction and development firms. It’s likely why we say more Republican yes than Dem nos. Again, this is at least partially because the two parties are indistinguishably right wing. There haven't been any details about how and where the money will be spent so this is just premature. Also, even if what you claim is true, who cares as long as the bridges are built and the roads are repaired? That is the point of the bill. To improve our infrastructure.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:
It turns out that killing leftists who try to organize makes it very hard for leftists to organize
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:06
|
|
|
Vorik posted:There haven't been any details about how and where the money will be spent so this is just premature. I would care if I were trying to get re-elected by providing some meat for my political party’s base, and not the other political party’s base, who I am in competition for control of the country with. Republicans aren’t your friend, despite the dubious platitude of bipartisanship as a good thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:07
|
|
|
Vorik posted:Also, even if what you claim is true, who cares as long as the bridges are built and the roads are repaired? That is the point of the bill. To improve our infrastructure. I care very much if the companies that are tasked with improving the infrastructure take a lot of money and time and do a terrible job.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
Vorik posted:https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1457041536772976643?s=20 Means they'll be replaced with omegachuds
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:15
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:I would care if I were trying to get re-elected by providing some meat for my political party’s base, and not the other political party’s base, who I am in competition for control of the country with. Republicans aren’t your friend, despite the dubious platitude of bipartisanship as a good thing. You think roads, bridges, high speed internet, etc will only benefit republicans? 
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:17
|
|
|
Vorik posted:You think roads, bridges, high speed internet, etc will only benefit republicans? It’s like bragging that you pay your rent, or don’t beat your kids. You don’t get cookies for doing the least.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
Mods please let me know if this doesn't count as the correct type of current events for this thresd. I didn't see this mentioned in the past couple pages and while I know this isn't politics it is clearly US current events and as a huge festival goer prior to covid this is blowing up in my circles. The current read on the situation is that as things started to break down fans jumped on the stage and desperately tried to get the show to shut down. https://twitter.com/nprmusic/status/1457049912722477058?t=g4qjivGgMl94eI2uet-jyQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/PopCrave/status/1457028971242168327?t=DqzSgCOFINLKeckl6WZOmw&s=19 NMS warning: Videos circulating on Twitter are very disturbing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
Vorik posted:You think roads, bridges, high speed internet, etc will only benefit republicans? Wait til you find out who benefitted the last time we gave telecoms an obscene amount of money to expand high speed internet access.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:25
|
|
|
Vorik posted:You think roads, bridges, high speed internet, etc will only benefit republicans? See my previous post. Construction jobs can easily be grifted to provide significantly more benefit to political donors than they do to the public. It's not just a simple binary of "road fixed/not fixed".
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:27
|
|
|
The fifth circuit is the loving worst https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1457043916662902785 Can we please expand the federal courts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:30
|
|
|
selec posted:It’s like bragging that you pay your rent, or don’t beat your kids. You don’t get cookies for doing the least. Oh, this isn't doing the least though. The BIF and BBB are historic bills, the biggest spending bills in this country since the new deal. It would also be the biggest investment in transpiration ever in this country. Go on the WH website you can see what they are investing on.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:31
|
|
|
Vorik posted:https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1457041536772976643?s=20 Of the 12, at least 3 (Reed, Gonzalez, Kinzinger) have already announced that they don't plan to run again, and the rest have generally broken ranks before on votes such as establishing the Jan. 6 commission, censuring Trump, or stripping Marjorie Taylor Green of committee assignments, so I'm not sure this will have much more effect, other than possibly a few more death threats.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
Yeah the BIF is a welcome treat for the incoming Republican Congress. So much funding to steel and divert it's gonna be great. Thank you manchin and sinema for selling yourself out for the good of your master's. For our country itself requires a rule far from the hands of the capitalist. Solely vested in the worker for common good. Why allow the capitalist to cultivate his wealth at the dethroning if those who create it? What say those who would spend Earth's mineral wealth in service of their own kingdom ships. When it should be spent to improve the global wealth of all beings? Seek mindfulness for those who have lived before you planned for the wealth to be distributed. Those people were always accosted by the capitalist to ensure dominance over our resource wealth. This must not be so.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:34
|
|
|
Vorik posted:You think roads, bridges, high speed internet, etc will only benefit republicans? I feel like you’re being deliberately obtuse here, but the government doesn’t have construction firms of its own. They pay for-profit firms to do this work, and they pay them extremely well. Those firms are largely owned by wealthy individuals who tend to oppose social spending and donate to Republicans. That’s why this bill was marketed as bipartisan in the first place and why the origin of infrastructure week was the Trump admin. The Democrat donor base is finance, tech, lawyers, etc
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:35
|
|
|
I think one of the most telling things about the modern Democrats is the way they effectively split broad groups into smaller cohorts by way of means testing. Like in a functional country a social welfare bill would straightforwardly benefit people in a broad package that improved living. An underserviced and increasingly at-risk group in this country are adults of working age who ride just near the poverty line; it's a huge demographic. But then we take that demo and we turn it into parents, home-owners, skilled vs unskilled labor, healthy vs disabled, etc, in order to cut smaller demographics out of the wider group, leaving healthy, parentless, apartment-renting adults struggling with poverty with absolutely nothing. Doubly so for minorities. I think giving out money is good, and so even means-tested money is good, but it's also incredibly insidious. Worse, I don't think it's a conspiracy; I think that Democrats actually believe the bullshit they say, I think a lot of people in government think working age adults will always just find a way to make life work. Like I don't think Manchin is paid off by the DNC to take the heat for the party; I think he's a lovely Dem who likes attention and actually thinks he's benefiting his constitutants while also lining his pockets. The state of affairs we are in doesn't require a conspiracy, these people can just be lovely. When Pelosi or Biden fail to add poverty-addressing measures to their bills, it isn't a conspiracy, they actually don't want to. They're showing us who they are every day. It's quite simple.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:36
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Western European countries only instituted their social welfare programs to safeguard against revolution. So, capitalists will never institute social spending, except for the times that they have in response to social pressure?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:I feel like you’re being deliberately obtuse here, but the government doesn’t have construction firms of its own. They pay for-profit firms to do this work, and they pay them extremely well. Those firms are largely owned by wealthy individuals who tend to oppose social spending and donate to Republicans. That’s why this bill was marketed as bipartisan in the first place and why the origin of infrastructure week was the Trump admin. I hear you, but again what does any of that matter? The important thing is what the result of this investment is going to be. More jobs, more green energy, fixing our crumbling infrastructure, expanding access to high speed internet, investing in transportation, etc. You've repeated yourself but haven't answered the question.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:41
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The fifth circuit is the loving worst Is anyone able to explain this in more detail? I have hard time seeing this fail given there's precedent with infectious diseases.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:45
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:I feel like you’re being deliberately obtuse here, but the government doesn’t have construction firms of its own. They pay for-profit firms to do this work, and they pay them extremely well. Those firms are largely owned by wealthy individuals who tend to oppose social spending and donate to Republicans. That’s why this bill was marketed as bipartisan in the first place and why the origin of infrastructure week was the Trump admin. Most highway repair is done via grants to state DoTs. CalTrans does all of the maintenance and repair in California, for example. They aren't private and CalTrans employees are all state employees.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
It's not that the bill isn't better than doing nothing, it's that touting it and doing nothing else is betraying like 99% of his campaign promises and that is probably not wise. Trump got the GOP three Supreme Court justices and a big tax cut, did the argument "hey I got you something so stop noticing I didn't do any of the other popular stuff I said I'd do like fix healthcare or drain the swamp or bring back jobs from China" work out well for him
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
How are u posted:So, capitalists will never institute social spending, except for the times that they have in response to social pressure? I rarely use the word "never," but absent social pressure in the modern context, it is extremely rare, yes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:47
|
|
|
Vorik posted:I hear you, but again what does any of that matter? The important thing is what the result of this investment is going to be. More jobs, more green energy, fixing our crumbling infrastructure, expanding access to high speed internet, investing in transportation, etc. You've repeated yourself but haven't answered the question. Those things are good for the country, yes, but not necessarily for Democrats in an electoral sense. For instance, the bill is literally called bipartisan when it clearly wasn’t according to the vote tally. Why give Republicans any credit whatsoever?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:50
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:Those things are good for the country, yes, but not necessarily for Democrats in an electoral sense. For instance, the bill is literally called bipartisan when it clearly wasn’t according to the vote tally. Why give Republicans any credit whatsoever? If it has Republicans voting for it I think it's fair to call it bipartisan, why do you think otherwise?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 06:35 |
|
|
Vorik posted:I hear you, but again what does any of that matter? The important thing is what the result of this investment is going to be. More jobs, more green energy, fixing our crumbling infrastructure, expanding access to high speed internet, investing in transportation, etc. You've repeated yourself but haven't answered the question.  Contracts given to donors out of political corruption often result in less-than-stellar results, from telecoms turning the grift into shareholder value instead of rural infrastructure to apartment buildings so shoddily constructed that they collapse.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2021 19:58
|
|
