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Fister Roboto posted:His story is that he went there to provide medical aid. It's obviously bullshit, because there were plenty of field medics at protests all across the country who weren't carrying assault rifles. But "normal" Americans who believe that cities were literally burning to the ground last year will eat it up. The only "medical aid" a rifle ever gave was to Ol' Yeller. It's remarkable that this loving child brought a rifle to a protest, openly fantasized about murdering shoplifters, did so, and will face no consequences for it. America.txt.
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Nov 12, 2021 04:01
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quote:What? It absolutely was not. The apparatus was designed by elites (the founding fathers) in a very specific way to make sure they retained control of the electoral process, hence the outsized power of the Senate (originally not even an elected office) and the electoral college (not actually required to vote in the way that their state population does).
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Nov 12, 2021 04:10
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Koaxke posted:I agree that he shouldn't have been out there in the first place and is therefore morally responsible for those deaths; however, based on the legal definition of Wisconsin self defense that was posted, it seems like he is in the legal clear for claiming self defense. I would disagree. At the point that Rittenhouse is deciding to fire his gun, we look at this question: quote:...unless the person [Rittenhouse] reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant [the protesters he is about to shoot]. Is it reasonable for him to think that opening fire is his only reasonable way to avoid great bodily harm? I think disarming would be a reasonable way to avoid great bodily harm in the face of people who think you're an active shooter. But the "reasonableness" question is one for the jury (or potentially for the judge if he decides that no reasonable person, blah blah, let the white guy go free). But it's not like you can read the statute, read reports, and declare "case closed, self defense". You also have a good argument, given his prior statements about intent to go shoot people, that (c) would override everything, and he would not have self-defense available due to his intent. quote:(c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense..
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Nov 12, 2021 04:15
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InsertPotPun posted:sorry, to be clearer: it was built on the idea that the people inside the apparatus would not be attempting to disassemble the apparatus. that they would not purposefully destroy the country for no reason.so there's not always a specific rule on things, just handshake agreements and "tradition" holding poo poo together that the framers thought would be safe once people discovered that being a politician is easier than being a farmer. honestly if ted cruz gets his way and brings the government down what the gently caress is he going to do? there a lot of money in scaring children these days? Okay yeah, I agree with this. They assumed the elites of the future would act rationally to preserve their power and the sense of legitimacy, but they couldn’t anticipate the propaganda sellers being succeeded by the true believers
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Nov 12, 2021 04:25
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"surely the legislature will never become propaganda-poisoned morons," muses thomas jefferson as he orders his newspaper buddies to dunk on john adams
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Nov 12, 2021 04:32
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Rittenhouse's man tears reminded me very strongly of Kavanaugh's self-righteous whining about how he was a good man who didn't deserve to be questioned by the woman he assaulted in that it seemed like an obvious affectation put on for a very obvious reason, but basically everyone I work with in emergency medicine and most of the people in my family were all totally sold on it. So I think there's something wrong with my ability to see white men being hurt, or something. Or they can trigger empathy in other people that for some reason I just don't have. I guess this is why the lawyers attempt to pick people without foreknowledge of the crime or the criminal, and the fact that I know he went there looking to kill some looters* and went on to brag about it after being free from custody in shirt form while violating probation are coloring my ability to even begin to give him any benefit of the doubt. (He was violating probation, right? Or am I making that up and underage drinking is fine when you're awaiting trial?) The prevailing idea among my more militant friends is that this whole trial is a backlash against BLM, and it's pretty hard to find any fault in that reasoning. It's a show trial to show black people that justice isn't for them, and the system will fight against black lives with whatever means it has until they just learn their place. Or, as James Baldwin once said, "to be a Negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all the time.” *this is a euphemism.
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Nov 12, 2021 04:55
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CommieGIR posted:Going out of his way by travelling across state, to seek conflict, and then murdering people because you felt threatened in a conflict area, is not self-defense. The whole “crossing state lines” thing, while technically true, strikes me as a red herring. Kenosha is 20 minutes from where he lives. It’s not like he drove that far. He did, however, break the law by bringing the firearm He was assaulted first. That’s why he has a right to self defense.
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Nov 12, 2021 04:58
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hobbez posted:He was assaulted first. That’s why he has a right to self defense. You push me, I shoot you. That's justice!
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Nov 12, 2021 05:12
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Harold Fjord posted:You push me, I shoot you. That's justice! Someone running behind him also shot a gun into the air. They were yelling at him they were going to kill him. Scary poo poo. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VpTW2AJE9MQ The last 7 minutes of this video has all the footage. Also, the third shooter, as he testified to, aimed at rittenhouse with his handgun before being shot. Rittenhouse’s story is entirely plausible. Should he have been there? Probably not. Is he a mass shooter nazi? Probably not. I’ll also say as someone that works in psychiatry Rittenhouse’s crying thru that section of testimony appears to be a legitimate panic attack. I’d be interested to hear from anyone that has firsthand experience with those that doesn’t believe that appears to be a legit panic attic hobbez fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 05:17
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hobbez posted:The whole “crossing state lines” thing, while technically true, strikes me as a red herring. Kenosha is 20 minutes from where he lives. It’s not like he drove that far. He did, however, break the law by bringing the firearm So you're saying he was in the act of committing a crime
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Nov 12, 2021 05:18
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hobbez posted:The whole “crossing state lines” thing, while technically true, strikes me as a red herring. Kenosha is 20 minutes from where he lives. It’s not like he drove that far. He did, however, break the law by bringing the firearm Everyone in America knows the complications of life and law when state borders or country borders are involved, moreso when you live near a border. Let's be realistic here.
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Nov 12, 2021 05:19
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An Air Force sergeant posted his suicide note to Instagram, went to the Lincoln Memorial, and shot himself in the head on the steps. https://www.instagram.com/p/CWCMUQdJMRN/ quote:Nobody ever knows when their time will come. Even less, ever get to choose that moment. Life always has ups and downs, sometimes you don't always come out on top. With a heavy heart, If you're reading this, its because my time has come to an end at my own hands. (Not a joke) this is the last message to my friends and family. https://twitter.com/leslifoster/status/1459003433269276690
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Nov 12, 2021 05:19
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hobbez posted:Someone running behind him also shot a gun into the air. They were yelling at him they were going to kill him. Scary poo poo. Exactly, he shouldn't have been there. He was as much a part of that riot as they were and should be punished accordingly.
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Nov 12, 2021 05:24
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hobbez posted:I’ll also say as someone that works in psychiatry Rittenhouse’s crying thru that section of testimony appears to be a legitimate panic attack. I’d be interested to hear from anyone that has firsthand experience with those that doesn’t believe that appears to be a legit panic attic Really? Interesting. Odd how he manages to hyperventilate without making any of his surface blood vessels dilate or create any real moisture from his eyes or his mouth. I guess he's just a neat panicker. The little side-eye to the jury at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2kX1Nzi1I8 1:47 in this video also shows a remarkable presence of mind for someone who can't breathe. Also strange that he doesn't seem to exhibit much in the way of extremity tremors. I'd expect someone with an extended arm like that to have their fingers be shaking or clasping into a fist uncontrollably given the trauma of a panic attack, but hey, what do I know.
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Nov 12, 2021 05:27
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Epic High Five posted:So you're saying he was in the act of committing a crime So I'll quote the most relevant section from the previous page that redeems Rittenhouse's right to self defense: quote:(b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant. Rittenhouse is literally in the act of running away from every individual pursuing him that he ends up shooting. quote:Exactly, he shouldn't have been there. He was as much a part of that riot as they were and should be punished accordingly. That doesn't exempt him from his right to self defense. quote:Everyone in America knows the complications of life and law when state borders or country borders are involved, moreso when you live near a border. Let's be realistic here. It's more that the oft-repeated "he crosses state lines" perhaps implies traveling a very long way (hours or hundreds of miles) to a community he had no connection to when this is in fact not the case.
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Nov 12, 2021 05:28
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hobbez posted:So I'll quote the most relevant section from the previous page that redeems Rittenhouse's right to self defense: It "implies" crossing state lines, which as an illegal weed state denizen surrounded by legal ones I can assure you "distance" doesn't matter even a little bit unless the judge decides you don't belong in their courtroom
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Nov 12, 2021 05:30
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He took a gun across state lines to intimidate civil rights supporters and when that didn't work he went on a shooting spree. Where was the right of self defense for the two other people trying to stop an out of control white supremacist shooting up their neighborhood?
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Nov 12, 2021 05:30
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Your guy is gonna walk and probably get a big settlement from the victims and/or the city, isn't that enough? Do you really need this to be something more than it obviously is, like it's actually in line with some sort of theory of justice that isn't mostly in line with the sort of enabling you'd expect after 40 years of fascist takeover of the judiciary with unquestioned and constant support from the "opposition" for whatever reason when it's the most obviously factual possible explanation?
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Nov 12, 2021 05:35
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Here is the actual videos, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ferrn7Shyk&t=6513s There is also a video of him saying he wish he had his AR-15 to confront protestors coming out of a CVS. Another of an interview with him saying he was there to "defend property" and "that's why he had his gun" These were not allowed to be shown at trial. hobbez posted:So I'll quote the most relevant section from the previous page that redeems Rittenhouse's right to self defense: actually committing a crime does exempt someone from the right to self-defense except under specific circumstances. As he has to not only retreat, but not return unless he makes a good faith effort to inform the person. Also, aiming down sight at someone who throws a plastic bag at you is responding with disproportionate force and Wisconsin law stipulates that proportionate force must be used. Rittenhouse testified in court that he fired at someone he knew to be unarmed. If you watch the videos, including the FBI surveillance footage, he fires at Rosenbaum, who then falls. No gun grabbing, and far away enough that Rittenhouse has space to ice him with feet between them. Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 05:40
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Ershalim posted:Really? Interesting. Odd how he manages to hyperventilate without making any of his surface blood vessels dilate or create any real moisture from his eyes or his mouth. I guess he's just a neat panicker. The little side-eye to the jury at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2kX1Nzi1I8 1:47 in this video also shows a remarkable presence of mind for someone who can't breathe. Also strange that he doesn't seem to exhibit much in the way of extremity tremors. I'd expect someone with an extended arm like that to have their fingers be shaking or clasping into a fist uncontrollably given the trauma of a panic attack, but hey, what do I know. He seems to get pretty red in the face and does appear at least a bit tremulous. I'll admit it's all speculation and no-one can say for sure. It seems extremely risky for him to take the stand at all let alone fake a panic attack when the trial seems to be so decidedly swinging his way. Epic High Five posted:Do you really need this to be something more than it obviously is, like it's actually in line with some sort of theory of justice that isn't mostly in line with the sort of enabling you'd expect after 40 years of fascist takeover of the judiciary with unquestioned and constant support from the "opposition" for whatever reason when it's the most obviously factual possible explanation? And the media that declared him a domestic terrorist and mass shooter. Should be some decent settlements there as well. I don't really know about all that, I don't really think the trial supports any grand narrative of mine.
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Nov 12, 2021 05:46
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As someone who had the right winger “you are a sheepdog protecting the herd” mentality blasted into them for a couple decades of martial arts training, it is not self defense when you go looking for a fight. Even the police trainers I did seminars with emphasize that point. If you go out open carrying a rifle to a place where the vast majority of people you are interacting with are hostile to your presence, you are not defending anything. You are out looking for trouble. Community defense is not going to a crowd of people who did not ask you to be there with a gun. Go ask the SRA or the JBGC.
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Nov 12, 2021 06:00
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hobbez posted:He seems to get pretty red in the face and does appear at least a bit tremulous. I'll admit it's all speculation and no-one can say for sure. It seems extremely risky for him to take the stand at all let alone fake a panic attack when the trial seems to be so decidedly swinging his way. That's rather the point, then, isn't it? It's not enough to simply get away with murder, you have to make a point. Fairly recently there was a trend on tiktok where white women showed themselves turning their tears on and off at will, often with sinister music and a li'l wink and a smile at the end. Not only "the system will never protect you" but "I can do whatever I want, and if you ever even think any different, I can make them hurt you anyway." It's a threat. The white supremacist revels in their power even as they feign powerlessness. I think everything about this trial is putting on a show. The more I see of it, the longer it goes on, the more certain people weigh in with their sudden expertise in self-defense law and without regard for any of the context around the events preceding and following the murder of 2 and attempted murder of another, makes me think the whole point is just to send a message. If that weren't enough, the trial for the murder of Ahmaud Arbery has been a sham in almost entirely the opposite direction. For some reason. You even seem to understand that Rittenhouse won't lose, and yet you feel compelled to put up weak counter-arguments to basically everyone here who thinks it's a farce of a trial. Any particular reason why his professed innocence matters to you so much? e:vvvvv rude. I was making a point that I thought was worthwhile, not just being baited by Ben Shapiro. 
Ershalim fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 06:05
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Ershalim posted:Any particular reason why his professed innocence matters to you so much?
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Nov 12, 2021 06:11
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Anyone seriously analyzing kyles breakdown is more sad than him.
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Nov 12, 2021 06:19
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President Kucinich posted:He took a gun across state lines to intimidate civil rights supporters and when that didn't work he went on a shooting spree. The narrative is that they were violent antifa rioters who were destroying the neighborhood, so anything he did to them will be considered justified. The case is insanely frustrating, but it's really just setting precedent for something that has been a de facto law in this country since its founding: that property is more valuable than life. Especially when you're a white dude.
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Nov 12, 2021 06:42
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Why is it Alec Baldwin kills two people and he's basically going to be hauled off to jail, but Travis Scott can murder 10 and injure over a hundred and get away Scott free?
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Nov 12, 2021 06:50
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Ershalim posted:That's rather the point, then, isn't it? It's not enough to simply get away with murder, you have to make a point. Fairly recently there was a trend on tiktok where white women showed themselves turning their tears on and off at will, often with sinister music and a li'l wink and a smile at the end. Not only "the system will never protect you" but "I can do whatever I want, and if you ever even think any different, I can make them hurt you anyway." It's a threat. The white supremacist revels in their power even as they feign powerlessness. If the message is that white men can be killed without repercussions I'd say that's real progress and we shouldn't lose sight of that amid all this doomerism.
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Nov 12, 2021 07:15
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hobbez posted:Someone running behind him also shot a gun into the air. They were yelling at him they were going to kill him. Scary poo poo. Maybe he wouldn't been labeled a Nazi if he showed remorse instead of palling around with Nazi's after getting out?
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Nov 12, 2021 07:24
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Why is it Alec Baldwin kills two people and he's basically going to be hauled off to jail, but Travis Scott can murder 10 and injure over a hundred and get away Scott free? Because "get away Baldwin free" isn't an expression.
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Nov 12, 2021 07:29
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Ershalim posted:You even seem to understand that Rittenhouse won't lose, and yet you feel compelled to put up weak counter-arguments to basically everyone here who thinks it's a farce of a trial. Any particular reason why his professed innocence matters to you so much? I initially posted in this thread because I thought there was a strong case to be made that Rittenhouse had redeemed his right to self defense in light of the statutes referenced in a post by another individual. No one has really countered that claim in any substantial way responding to the fact that Rittenhouse was: in flight while being pursued by two individuals, one of which fired a bullet in his general direction. I wouldn't call these facts "weak counter-arguments". That's what accelerated the whole mess. The first shooting victim, yes, it appears he hadn't actually made contact with Rittenhouse in the footage, but he was DEFINITELY chasing him and I don't think it's unreasonable for Rittenhouse to believe his life was in danger especially in lieu of the gunshot. Rittenhouse further testified the man had told him he was going to kill him. I'm interested in the case because it's one of many where people were quick to condemn and judge. The evidence does not appear to support the initial narrative. Our sensationalized media is largely to blame and I don't mind seeing them get egg on their face. I wish our society were capable of allowing the facts to be born out. edit: socialsecurity posted:Maybe he wouldn't been labeled a Nazi if he showed remorse instead of palling around with Nazi's after getting out? I'm not aware of what you're referencing and maybe that's my fault. I am surely not as plugged in as many in this thread. If you'd post a link or something I'll take a look. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) hobbez fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 07:36
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hobbez posted:I initially posted in this thread because I thought there was a strong case to be made that Rittenhouse had redeemed his right to self defense in light of the statutes referenced in a post by another individual. No one has really countered that claim in any substantial way responding to the fact that Rittenhouse was: in flight while being pursued by two individuals, one of which fired a bullet in his general direction. I wouldn't call these facts "weak counter-arguments". That's what accelerated the whole mess. The first shooting victim, yes, it appears he hadn't actually made contact with Rittenhouse in the footage, but he was DEFINITELY chasing him and I don't think it's unreasonable for Rittenhouse to believe his life was in danger especially in lieu of the gunshot. Rittenhouse further testified the man had told him he was going to kill him. This would all be more compelling (and come off as less of a blatant troll that people should stop responding to ASAP) if he hadn't previously said that he was planning to provoke a fight.
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Nov 12, 2021 07:57
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hobbez posted:edit: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/14/kyle-rittenhouse-proud-boys-bar/ Rittenhouse met up with a contingent of Proud Boys at a bar in Mount Pleasant, WI wearing a t-shirt that said "Free As gently caress" on it after he was released on bail and took celebratory photos with them flashing the "I'm a white supremacist, don't tell anyone" hand sign that the Nazis have co-opted out of the "ok" gesture, and did all of this apparently of his own accord and with no coercion or manipulation. The whole thing has a strong air of "I'm proud of what I did and I'm happy I'm gonna get away with it." The judge barred the jury from seeing it because the image instantly destroys Rittenhouse's credibility as a defendant.
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Nov 12, 2021 07:59
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Republicans posted:Exactly, he shouldn't have been there. He was as much a part of that riot as they were and should be punished accordingly. in this case everyone in the chud sphere was talking for weeks about how these protesters were dangerous monsters killing thousands and burning down whole cities, the president was telling people the army needs to go in and clean up all these violent sickos and monsters tearing cities to pieces with no end in sight and this child, with no permission, training, experience, and armed only with a rifle went specifically into one of those hellmouths. now he's all crying on stage because, shock of shock, the democrat's demonic plan to destroy america with violence involved violence!!! all his tears and blubbery blubbering about the situation he asked his mom to drive him too. he put himself into a chaotic situation and gave himself authority backed up with deadly force with the assumption that he would be hailed as a hero if he he used the right he granted himself to murder "bad people" by virtue of watching lots of ben shapiro. also i just straight up don't trust this child, who chose to go into a dangerous situation armed and was SHOCKED to discover there was danger, to judge "self defense". even not making assumptions of his fragile chud nature, people who fantasize about flashing guns at every minority that stops at a red light next to them, i don't trust his judgement.
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Nov 12, 2021 08:04
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nine-gear crow posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/14/kyle-rittenhouse-proud-boys-bar/ I'd agree this is troubling but he is probably a pretty dumb 18 year old that suddenly had a lot of celebrity. I do not think this evidence would inherently discredit his case of self defense. He clearly had pro-right proclivities. That doesn't mean he is a Nazi. One photo does not a Nazi make. Just as I have a feeling some in this thread would argue hanging out with Antifa doesn't automatically make you a violent revolutionary or whatever. I also think the "W" thing is often more of a way to troll and "own the libs" than it is an actual white power symbol. And I think that it's hyperbolic to compare proud boys to Nazis. Obviously, you will disagree. I am clearly swimming upstream here and I am going to just stop posting in this topic for tonight because it's late and I'm highjacking the thread.
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Nov 12, 2021 08:14
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Nazis don't have a right to self defense.
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Nov 12, 2021 08:15
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GreyjoyBastard posted:"surely the legislature will never become propaganda-poisoned morons," muses thomas jefferson as he orders his newspaper buddies to dunk on john adams It's Fine When I Do It was the guiding principle of the founding fathers
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Nov 12, 2021 08:55
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hobbez posted:I also think the "W" thing is often more of a way to troll and "own the libs" than it is an actual white power symbol. And I think that it's hyperbolic to compare proud boys to Nazis. leaving the rest of your mess alone but wanted to address these two sentences 1) if white supremacists are using a symbol to represent themselves in hope of provoking a reaction, what about it is not a white supremacist symbol? 2) this reflects deep, deep ignorance about Proud Boys so maybe loving educate yourself before you weigh in on the topic.
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Nov 12, 2021 09:21
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Chloe Jessica posted:2) this reflects deep, deep ignorance about Proud Boys so maybe loving educate yourself before you weigh in on the topic. Equally, it reflects deep ignorance of the early years of Nazi Germany, when it was a bunch of belligerent young guys hassling people but before Hugo Boss did the uniforms
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Nov 12, 2021 09:28
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:An Air Force sergeant posted his suicide note to Instagram, went to the Lincoln Memorial, and shot himself in the head on the steps. My daughter was on her class trip to DC and was walking up to the memorial minutes after this happened. She called us freaking out that someone had a gun and killed themselves so they couldn't go in. She was terrified that someone else might have a gun and didn't want to be there anymore. Why did this dude have to kill himself in public? Why don't people realize they affect more than themselves with their actions? Fuckin kill yourself at home so you don't scar a bunch of children.
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Nov 12, 2021 11:30
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[hobbez posted:
The Canadian government declared them a terrorist organization with this description. It doesn't feel like deep ignorance to have Nazis in the list of comparables for this group. quote:Description What do you think the comparable is? What part of this isn't accurate? T.C. fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Nov 12, 2021 |
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Nov 12, 2021 11:41
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