p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

YOSPOS � PL (Programming Language) thread: A system, method and computer-readable medium support the use of a single operator that allows a comparison of two variables to determine if the two variables point to different locations in memory

# ? Nov 12, 2021 22:28

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# ? May 18, 2024 02:10

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Soricidus posted:

people say this a lot and idgi

code:

def VeryPythonicCode(butts, dongs):
    result, err = insert(dongs, butts)
    if err is not None:
        print(�thank god we fixed error handling at last�)
        return err
    �

the point is that it�s linguistically simple, and that there�s a right way to do things (*cough* because language doesn�t give you instruments to be flexible)

but don�t take it from me, take it from guido himself

https://developers.slashdot.org/story/21/05/22/0348235/what-python-creator-guido-van-rossum-thinks-of-rust-go-julia-and-typescript

# ? Nov 12, 2021 22:51

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

quote:

Nobody should ever try to code [...] in Python

e: to shitpost slightly less I also agree that ts is doing some really novel type related stuff to handle the mess that is js, and I'm glad that python type people are following behind these days

# ? Nov 12, 2021 22:52

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

mystes posted:

Swift seems perfectly good but it also doesn't seem like it's gotten enough traction outside of the apple ecosystem to be appealing right now for no particular fault of its own.

From what I've seen of Swift it's genuinely a very cool language but I agree that nobody ever seems to talk about it. A few years ago I saw a presentation at a conference from...IBM I think, talking about how they were bringing Swift to the world of backend programming. I haven't heard of that effort since.

Maybe in a few years...

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:08

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

gonadic io posted:

e: to shitpost slightly less I also agree that ts is doing some really novel type related stuff to handle the mess that is js, and I'm glad that python type people are following behind these days

unfortunately the python�s typing story is slowing down, mostly dead even i would say, especially in my niche - you have like 4 major type checking engines that work in different ways, the typestubs availability is relatively bad, no official push to make it happen, etcetra. it will work adequately if you�re like dropbox and want to unfuck your multi-million LOC code base internally, but just for coding small things it�s awkward at its best. dissatisfaction with that over time is a major reason for why im now soul searching something else to spend some time with, even if to discover that grass is totally greener on the other side

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:30

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

i mean consider my vote firmly thrown in for rust, despite its problems it's by far the best designed lang imo. pattern matching + adts (aka rich enums) + first class functions are loving mandatory for a new lang to have in tyool 2021

I realise this might not sell it but it has everything I like about haskell without all the bullshit (but with some other new bullshit of course)

gonadic io fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Nov 12, 2021

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:32

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

cinci zoo sniper posted:

the point is that it�s linguistically simple, and that there�s a right way to do things (*cough* because language doesn�t give you instruments to be flexible)

but don�t take it from me, take it from guido himself

https://developers.slashdot.org/story/21/05/22/0348235/what-python-creator-guido-van-rossum-thinks-of-rust-go-julia-and-typescript

yes but python *isn�t* linguistically simple and *doesn�t*, in fact, have a single right way to do many things. those might be guido�s ideals and they might even be what he intended to create, but they aren�t descriptive of the python language that exists.

like � python has, what, three different ways of doing string interpolation, or is it four by now? meanwhile go has sprintf, and any attempt to point out that other options might be useful will be met with withering scorn and hostility. those are not similar things.

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:34

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

gonadic io posted:

i mean consider my vote firmly thrown in for rust, despite its problems it's by far the best designed lang imo. pattern matching + adts + first class functions are loving mandatory for a new lang to have in tyool 2021

it�s my main candidate right now, on the account it absolutely being capable to grow me into a better programmer. im just honestly a bit afraid of leaving gc behind + dragging my feet because im interviewing for a position that will have me learning d

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:34

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

also wtf is that a slashdot link from this year

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:35

mystes: May 31, 2006

Soricidus posted:

also wtf is that a slashdot link from this year

I regret to inform you that now that lowtax is dead we all have 30 days to vacate the premises and move back to slashdot.

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:36

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

cinci zoo sniper posted:

it�s my main candidate right now, on the account it absolutely being capable to grow me into a better programmer. im just honestly a bit afraid of leaving gc behind + dragging my feet because im interviewing for a position that will have me learning d

coming from haskell/scala and having never touched c++ it took me loving aaages to actually get used to the borrow checker for sure

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:37

mystes: May 31, 2006

cinci zoo sniper posted:

it�s my main candidate right now, on the account it absolutely being capable to grow me into a better programmer. im just honestly a bit afraid of leaving gc behind + dragging my feet because im interviewing for a position that will have me learning d

"oh this language is pointless annoying to use, so it must be good"

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:40

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Soricidus posted:

yes but python *isn�t* linguistically simple and *doesn�t*, in fact, have a single right way to do many things. those might be guido�s ideals and they might even be what he intended to create, but they aren�t descriptive of the python language that exists.

like � python has, what, three different ways of doing string interpolation, or is it four by now? meanwhile go has sprintf, and any attempt to point out that other options might be useful will be met with withering scorn and hostility. those are not similar things.

python does support writing non-pythonic code, but that is not the endorsed style of coding in python. out of %, .format, .Template, and f-string interpolation only the latter is endorsed for new code. yes, it�s a mess, and for that reason guido admires go, because the language will just cover you in hot vomit if you try to use it against rob�s wishes

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Nov 12, 2021

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:40

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

mystes posted:

"oh this language is pointless annoying to use, so it must be good"

ill have you know that im the OP of terrible programming thread for a reason

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:41

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

ibm's modus operandi for the last twenty years has been to throw a team of exactly ten engineers at anything that will get people talking about ibm in the trade press. those engineers will promptly attempt to reimplement j2ee from scratch in whatever technology is at hand. if this fails to gain immediate traction, ibm will quietly pull the plug about two years later. q.v. literally everything that "watson" ever did. you should basically always treat ibm's involvement in something as an obnoxious distraction from whatever merit the underlying idea actually has

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:47

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

we evaluated some watson stuff commercially a job ago and it was quite amusing

# ? Nov 12, 2021 23:49

fritz: Jul 26, 2003

Soricidus posted:

people say this a lot and idgi

i give it about as much weight as 'c is portable assembly language'

# ? Nov 13, 2021 00:26

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

Rust has way too many fanboys and to this date nobody has written much of anything notable in it other than a few parts of Firefox. I think Amazon used it to write a hypervisor?

Literally every single other project is bro you have to rewrite (perfectly good thing) ... but in Rust! bro just because bro

If Rust is a better C++ then perhaps Ziglang is a better C. I like the look of it. Zig doesn't have much of a tooling story yet though.

# ? Nov 13, 2021 01:09

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Sapozhnik posted:

Rust has way too many fanboys and to this date nobody has written much of anything notable in it other than a few parts of Firefox. I think Amazon used it to write a hypervisor?

i think servo, the firefox layout engine project, got cancelled altogether. from what ive found, cloudflare is using rust for internal stuff, and amazon has done as you say - firecracker, bottlerocket, and nitro are all written in rust. there�s also an aws sdk preview for rust. but that�s it, nothing on the scale of e.g. all the go devops stuff

# ? Nov 13, 2021 01:22

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

rust is great. we're using it in part of an extremely boring piece of business software, because its ecosystem has sufficiently good Things and it is extremely performant.

# ? Nov 13, 2021 02:11

luchadornado: Oct 7, 2004; A boombox is not a toy!

Bloody posted:

rust is great. we're using it in part of an extremely boring piece of business software, because its ecosystem has sufficiently good Things and it is extremely performant.

but idgaf about the perf, its more about correctness and stability. i had some weather stuff written in rust that i deployed somewhere and forgot about until i started getting billed for excessive storage - it had been running for 2 years at 1% cpu and 25mb ram without a hiccup

# ? Nov 13, 2021 02:21

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

it�s increasingly hard for me to look forward to working in a language that doesn�t have something like Rust�s serde

# ? Nov 13, 2021 02:25

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

Subjunctive posted:

it�s increasingly hard for me to look forward to working in a language that doesn�t have something like Rust�s serde

same but the borrow checker

# ? Nov 13, 2021 02:35

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

cinci zoo sniper posted:

i think servo, the firefox layout engine project, got cancelled altogether. from what ive found, cloudflare is using rust for internal stuff, and amazon has done as you say - firecracker, bottlerocket, and nitro are all written in rust. there�s also an aws sdk preview for rust. but that�s it, nothing on the scale of e.g. all the go devops stuff

linkerd 2 proxy is written in rust

# ? Nov 13, 2021 02:40

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

gonadic io posted:

The niche that rust and go share is "easier than C++, faster than the VM langs" on the server. The fact that rust doesn't have a GC is irrelevant for this use and almost a hinderance due to the complexity and learning curve that the borrow checker brings. You can see this directly in the calls, like "please give me a haskell but strict", for "please give me rust but with a GC".
In practice you can mostly get that effect by throwing around a lot of mutexes and RCs since you absolutely don't care about the last 20% of performance in this case.

go is java for people who refuse to consider java. down to similar performance

# ? Nov 13, 2021 02:41

Joe Chip: Jan 4, 2014

Nomnom Cookie posted:

go is java for people who refuse to consider java. down to similar performance

except that go is worse in almost every way. no objects but everyone pretends structs are objects and treats interfaces like java interfaces instead of traits, no generics but that's a dead horse at this point, no exceptions and someone i work with actually proposed catching panics as a way to do error handling. it's java only in the sense that every idiot thinks they should write their microservices in it but it is strictly a worse language. we actually have a proposal to do a rewrite in java and/or kotlin because it's gotten so bad

# ? Nov 13, 2021 03:45

Joe Chip: Jan 4, 2014

and don't even get me started on the garbage that go has for 3rd party libraries. we have multiple dependencies in production that aren't even 1.0 and i spend a lot of my time forking them to fix dumb bugs

mostly i choose to use c libraries when i can

# ? Nov 13, 2021 03:56

DELETE CASCADE: Oct 25, 2017; i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003

go is java 1.4

# ? Nov 13, 2021 04:46

Armitag3: Mar 15, 2020; Forget it Jake, it's cybertown.

go is for people that can't come

# ? Nov 13, 2021 04:50

akadajet: Sep 14, 2003

I�d rather write in c than learn go.

# ? Nov 13, 2021 05:31

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

Armitag3 posted:

go is for people that can't come

I am on some Herculean doses of SSRIs but go still doesn�t appeal

# ? Nov 13, 2021 05:52

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

akadajet posted:

I’d rather write in c than learn go.

C is good though. I'd rather write C than at least half the langs I've been paid to write.

# ? Nov 13, 2021 07:02

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

let's see...
verilog, matlab, c, c#

yep this checks out

# ? Nov 13, 2021 07:04

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

C is garbage for people who prefer feeling smart to being productive

# ? Nov 13, 2021 08:18

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

Nomnom Cookie posted:

go is java for people who refuse to consider java. down to similar performance

funny story I just finished porting a golang tool nobody wanted to maintain to the jvm and my version is literally 10x faster

I�ve even written python that was faster than the go equivalent

not sure if that�s because go makes it hard to write performant code or if the kind of person who picks go is very bad at programming, but it keeps happening. my current hypothesis is that it�s largely caused by the lack of abstraction (my fast jvm code relies on a nice persistent generic tree type that I can�t even begin to imagine writing in go)

# ? Nov 13, 2021 11:09

mystes: May 31, 2006

Armitag3 posted:

go is for people that can't come

If the mountain will not ocaml to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain.

# ? Nov 13, 2021 13:25

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Xarn posted:

C is garbage for people who prefer feeling smart to being productive

Are you confusing C and C++?

# ? Nov 13, 2021 15:23

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

No C++ is actually productive once you know what you're doing.

Just the occasional crippling bug is the price you have to pay. But it's not as common as you might think, maybe once a year or two in my experience.

# ? Nov 13, 2021 15:30

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

leper khan posted:

Are you confusing C and C++?

C++ is garbage for people who want to be productive and are stuck in specific niche with legacy code. Very different.

# ? Nov 13, 2021 15:39

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# ? May 18, 2024 02:10

akadajet: Sep 14, 2003

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snr113r5ocY&hd=1

# ? Nov 13, 2021 15:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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