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The desire to gently caress with it isn't exclusive to just carburetors. Look at all the tarted up Chelsea Tractor ADVs on the market with like 1500 miles on the odometer with the entire pouratech catalog drenched on it. Though pod filters are the single worst thing someone could do to a carb.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:26
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Another thing is that carbs vs efi doesn’t make a bit of difference if you’re taking the bike to someone else to fix (assuming whoever is fixing it is competent and not your friend’s cousin who has some tools and takes weed for payment). For a first bike and only bike, carbs is a very pointless and limiting hill to die on.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:31
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I've said it before, but outside of a few outliers like the DR and some other dirt-adjacent bikes, nobody has built a carbed bike worth owning in like 20 years. Carbed bikes can pretty much be considered vintage bikes, and have all the associated problems that come with owning a vintage bike, 25 year old carbs being just one of those things.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:54
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Finger Prince posted:I've said it before, but outside of a few outliers like the DR and some other dirt-adjacent bikes, nobody has built a carbed bike worth owning in like 20 years. Carbed bikes can pretty much be considered vintage bikes, and have all the associated problems that come with owning a vintage bike, 25 year old carbs being just one of those things. Considering op is orbiting around a dirt adjacent bike, and many of the recent bikes in that class still use carbs, it is in no way unreasonable to say “it’s dumb to rule out bikes based on carb presence/absence.” Also, quote:nobody has built a carbed bike worth owning in like 20 years. HenryJLittlefinger fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 20:12
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There is literally nothing wrong with the carburetor on any bike designed in the last 50 years that cannot be ascribed to either neglect or someone's misguided attempt to tune it.cursedshitbox posted:Both are trouble free systems if it actually gets ridden and not treated as garage art.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:21
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Sagebrush posted:There is literally nothing wrong with the carburetor on any bike designed in the last 50 years that cannot be ascribed to either neglect or someone's misguided attempt to tune it. So buy new, or take your chances.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:54
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Nov 14, 2021 21:02
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:Considering op is orbiting around a dirt adjacent bike, and many of the recent bikes in that class still use carbs, it is in no way unreasonable to say “it’s dumb to rule out bikes based on carb presence/absence.” What CBs? ZRX died in '05, Bandit 1200 hung on to '07 which will very shortly be 15 years ago. It's an outlier.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:04
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Finger Prince posted:So buy new, or take your chances. This is true for every purchase you will ever make. Are you gonna say that you should only buy new because maybe the PO left the chain loose and that's too big a problem to deal with?
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Nov 14, 2021 21:15
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CB400SF, CB500 twin, CB600F and CB900F were all carbed until around 2007ish, some switched to EFI a little earlier.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:22
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Sagebrush posted:This is true for every purchase you will ever make. Are you gonna say that you should only buy new because maybe the PO left the chain loose and that's too big a problem to deal with? Futzing with carbs is not the same as replacing a chain. Chain hosed? Replace chain. Carb hosed? Futz with it and everything surrounding it until you stumble upon the right combination of unfucking. Just read through the stupid questions thread and check the number of how make bike go questions relating to carbs vs FI bikes. They're more maintenance intensive. Some people have the patience for that, some people don't.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:22
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Finger Prince posted:Chain hosed? Replace chain. Carb hosed? Put everything back to stock. ftfy. Like yes it's a little harder than replacing a chain, but this idea that you have to constantly gently caress around with carburetors and always be adjusting and tuning them to make them run is flat-out wrong. They are deterministic devices and there's an objectively correct way to set them up. You dip the things in carb cleaner, look up the stock jet sizes and pilot settings in the manual, and put back the stock air filters and exhaust if the PO removed them (or don't buy that bike). That's it. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 21:31
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“Some people have the patience for maintaining thing, some people don’t” is a long fuckin reach to “a bike with a carburetor is not worth owning”
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Nov 14, 2021 21:33
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:“Some people have the patience for maintaining thing, some people don’t” is a long fuckin reach to “a bike with a carburetor is not worth owning” It's not that there aren't carbed bikes worth owning, it's nobody has built one in ~20 years, with the exception of a small group of outliers that hung on for a couple of extra years. Fuel injection has been the de facto standard for decades. You aren't limiting yourself at all by saying you don't want to deal with carburetors. You're just saying you'd prefer a bike that's newer than the early 2000s.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:54
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Finger Prince posted:Futzing with carbs is not the same as replacing a chain. Chain hosed? Replace chain. Carb hosed? Futz with it and everything surrounding it until you stumble upon the right combination of unfucking. Just read through the stupid questions thread and check the number of how make bike go questions relating to carbs vs FI bikes. They're more maintenance intensive. Some people have the patience for that, some people don't. It’s pretty easy to butt dyno a carb and figure out what’s wrong. They’re simple, there are only a few things that can be changed with them: main jet, pilot jet, and air fuel mixture screw. More advanced carbs may have things like accelerator pumps, but those are the exception. Getting it running right is some manner of loving with those three things. Don’t want to gently caress with them? Just return it all to stock, and you’re done. FI hasn’t been around long enough on bikes to be a real problem yet. You can buy a bike with a basically modern-ish carb setup from the mid 1960’s. Of course an F4i that has been sitting for a couple years is easier to get going than a 1965 Honda that’s been in a barn since Woodstock. That’s the difference in time we’re potentially talking about. I’ve said this before, but in 2050, when you’re pulling a 2000 GSXR out of a barn, it’s gonna be properly hosed just like a 50 year old carbed bike would be today. Also you’re 100% limiting yourself by saying no carbs. You’re saying no to some of the best bikes in the history of motorcycling. Bikes that you can’t get today. There is no modern CBX, no modern GT750, RD350, and on and on. Rejecting that because “eww I don’t like screwdrivers” is wild to me but to each their own I suppose. Beve Stuscemi fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 21:57
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Sagebrush posted:Like yes it's a little harder than replacing a chain, but this idea that you have to constantly gently caress around with carburetors and always be adjusting and tuning them to make them run is flat-out wrong. They are deterministic devices and there's an objectively correct way to set them up. You dip the things in carb cleaner, look up the stock jet sizes and pilot settings in the manual, and put back the stock air filters and exhaust if the PO removed them (or don't buy that bike). That's it. Yup. Mechanical aptitude and tools have some play in this too. There's always that one asshat jamming Phillips bits into JIS screws ruining them then immediately screeching about how carburetors are poo poo trash while ignoring the fact that it was they themselves that ruined it. Or the individual that could gently caress up a ram-mount install. A 'modern' CV carb when ridden regularly will put down more miles than most people here will ever ride in their entire riding career. Its everything else that will go to poo poo in that same timeframe. Fuel system hosed with? don't buy it. simple. Carbs will run like rear end unless you know what the gently caress you're doing. They're simple physics based devices. efi will run just as poorly with intake/exhaust modifications unless its fuel/ignition tables have been adjusted or there's a third party plug in device that alters what values the pcm sees from the few sensors on the engine. Also, don't buy someone's failed project or yard art as your first bike. Buy your first bike to learn how to ride on, not learn how to wrench on. When you get some significant miles under your belt then buy someone's clapped out shitheap. EFI is cool and good and great. So are carbs. They each have their respective places. They both will bite when neglected and abused. Buy new if riding regularly is too hard. Easy. E: 80s BMW K bikes are efi. There's gotta be a few example with enough miles that the harness and sensors start flaking out. cursedshitbox fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 21:58
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I did my riding lessons on Honda CBF500's: https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Honda/honda_cbf500_06.html I think the newest one was from 2007 and still had carbs. They never had carburetor-related issues. They also had ABS, and i can highly recommend it as a first bike. It's not that comfortable though. Excluding really old bikes is reasonable, but in such cases you should also exclude older fuel injected bikes. After 20ish years rubber bits can start to deteriorate. My SV needs new fuel hoses within 1 or 2 years, my FZR already has new (and apparently really hard to find) air intake plenum like things for the carbs. Original one was cracked.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:04
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Sagebrush posted:ftfy. If carburetors were like alternators where you could remove your busted one and pay a shop to exchange it for an overhauled one that you just need to install on the bike, then I would 100% agree with you that carbs aren't a hassle.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:08
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The good thing is that you don't randomly need to replace a carburetor. Get it professionally cleaned once, when you get the bike (1 or 2 hours of labor). Then forget about it for the next 10 years. It won't randomly do weird things. Unless you do a dumb and let the gas go gummy in the float bowls or let the gas tank go rusty. Some folks claim you absolutely need to reflash ECUs to change the engine mapping on an EFI bike on certain models because they run like rear end. That doesn't mean that EFI per definition is a hassle.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:17
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Ride a GY6. You can get plop-in carbs for those things all day everyday. The carb itself isn't the problem. its everything around it, including the owner. LimaBiker posted:Excluding really old bikes is reasonable, but in such cases you should also exclude older fuel injected bikes. After 20ish years rubber bits can start to deteriorate. My SV needs new fuel hoses within 1 or 2 years, my FZR already has new (and apparently really hard to find) air intake plenum like things for the carbs. Original one was cracked. iirc the yzf600 boots work, a decade ago you could still get those from Yamaha. I sold my fzr 400/600 hybrid several years ago, no idea what parts availability is for them now. People are 3dprinting carb boots in TPU now. Fuel hoses and orings? 30R9 and Viton all the way. TPS sensors and idle control stepper motors on the lc8 990s (efi) tend to poo poo out. The stepper you technically can't get so a good working set of throttlebodies go for a $premium. There's several pinch points on those where the harness chafes or breaks resulting in all sorts of issues. That's hardly anything new or specific though. The early versions of that injection system you can remap using your phone. The later is locked out to the end user.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:27
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If carbs were only fixable with lots of strife and trial and error and bullshit, I would never make any money fixing them. But it turns out, carbs are actually one of the most profitable repairs because they're almost always very straightforward to fix, the parts cost gently caress all, and it's easy simple labor that I can do sitting on my rear end. Like sage said, they are a deterministic, simple device that you can repair with basic tools. EFI bikes are much, much cuntier to deal with when they go wrong. And they do! All the time! In a variety of dumb ways that are usually harder to resolve from a diagnostic point of view because of the total absence of obd2 or any other kind of standardisation, among other things.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:36
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Also you’re 100% limiting yourself by saying no carbs. You’re saying no to some of the best bikes in the history of motorcycling. Bikes that you can’t get today. There is no modern CBX, no modern GT750, RD350, and on and on. Rejecting that because “eww I don’t like screwdrivers” is wild to me but to each their own I suppose. You're limiting yourself in the same way you'd be limiting yourself by not buying an R32 or R33 GT-R, an Escort Cosworth, a 205 Gti, a Lancia Delta Integrale, etc. They're all old enough to Have Problems and you're going to either need a specialist mechanic or the time, space, money and wherewithall to restore them and keep them restored. Like yeah, if I had all the money and garage, I'd fancy a CBX for a bit, just to have the experience. It wouldn't be my primary/only bike though. Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 22:38
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Your chances of successfully daily riding a cbx, if you had one, are drastically higher than they would be with an r32 GTR or a cossie or, god help you if you have a Delta integrale. The cbx is a totally normal dumb old Honda that just happens to have a six cylinder and the carbs are just as straightforward as every other ujm. Your chances of repairing it yourself are an order of magnitude higher than they would be for a turbo 80's car.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:47
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cursedshitbox posted:E: 80s BMW K bikes are efi. There's gotta be a few example with enough miles that the harness and sensors start flaking out. Also to everyone saying just ride the bike and you won't have a problem: yeah I agree but I think you underestimate how much of an issue this is for many many bike owners. For reasons I don't quite grasp myself, it's not easy for the average bike owner to just ride the thing often. Regional climate factors into it in a big way potentially, also.
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Nov 14, 2021 23:16
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I ruled out the Harley (and basically all Harleys unless I have the money and desire for a huge ____ Glide cruiser) when we went back today to have my partner try on helmets. There’s nothing that fits me, even trying things with forward controls Rode the ‘94 Honda Magna we have at home around a bit this morning and managed to get the hang of its finicky clutch. The power on it is weird at the low end and it makes it easy to stall. I kept trying to give it gradual gas and let off the clutch gradually, but it took longer than I’d have liked to find the balance, especially since I couldn’t feel anything happening through the clutch at all. I’ll have a much easier time with something that has more even power. Other than the wide turning radius, is there anything else y’all hate about the Vulcan S? It’s the most affordable and reasonable thing I’ve sat on that didn’t hurt my hip and will go 75 or 80 if I need to on the freeway. I’m kind of giving up on the idea that I’m going to own one motorcycle that does everything. My first priority is to be able to ride to the coast on day trips and maybe to camp sites here and there. I’ll never be doing super moto or crazy off-road stuff, but I’d eventually like something that will take me up simple trails and service roads safely. I’m not intentionally leaning towards bikes y’all dislike and am trying to give everything suggested a fair shake. I swear. I’d love to be a goon success story. Slavvy posted:E^^^^ ok I can't read that as anything but a subtle, finely calibrated troll anymore, well done sir I sincerely don’t know what you mean. You don’t need to take time to explain it, but I don’t want you to think I’m trying to yank your chain. Geekboy fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 00:06
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E^^^^ ok I can't read that as anything but a subtle, finely calibrated troll anymore, well done sir Hey I missed the k-bike thing and good news! They do in fact go wrong and are horrible to repair because they're basically the fuel system off of an e30 poorly stuffed into a motorcycle, complete with a shoebox area under the seat filled with an octopus of wiring and a bunch of unobtainable relays connected to dumb loving circuits that make no sense. They are one of the only non-Italian bikes I know of that can catch on fire with no harness damage or electrical modification because the entire starting circuit is a hosed up MC Escher nightmare, the starter relay is barely adequate to carry the starter current, the earth scheme sucks etc. I genuinely don't know what anyone sees in those bikes because they don't seem to have any positive qualities.
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Nov 15, 2021 00:10
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While I'm dying on this hill, since this is the tell me what bike to buy thread, let's see if I can rephrase this line of thought. Recommend me a bike. I'm looking for something fun to ride and fairly light weight. It'll be ridden on pavement only, rain or shine. No dirt or gravel. I tried a DR400SM, but the seat is really uncomfortable after about an hour and they're all really expensive where I am, plus I'm not a fan of dirt bike styling. I don't want anything older than me (I'm 20). I've been riding a MT03 for 3 years and want to try something new. Must be carbureted.
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Nov 15, 2021 00:28
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Sachs Madass
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Nov 15, 2021 00:34
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Sachs Madass Had to google it, looks cool! But they only sold the 49cc version here, and I can't take that on the highway.
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Nov 15, 2021 00:40
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Finger Prince posted:While I'm dying on this hill, since this is the tell me what bike to buy thread, let's see if I can rephrase this line of thought. Cb400 super four.
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Nov 15, 2021 00:44
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Slavvy posted:Cb400 super four. Those look really nice! Sadly they never sold them in this part of the world.
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Nov 15, 2021 00:53
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So perhaps I should officially amend my initial statement. Practically nobody has sold a new carbed bike worth owning in North America in the past ~20 years, a few outliers excepted. (they may have made some, they just never sold them here) Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 00:57
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I bet there hasn’t been a true Scotsman born in the last 20 years either.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:03
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I wasnt sure how to read the “I’m 20” line, I was having real trouble rectifying that with being a 6 year old at reg lmao
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Nov 15, 2021 01:08
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TheBacon posted:I wasnt sure how to read the “I’m 20” line, I was having real trouble rectifying that with being a 6 year old at reg lmao It was a hypothetical scenario. I wanted a way to say "I don't want a 20 year old bike" that didn't sound purely arbitrary coming from a fellow old fart.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:36
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Not to stray back to carb chat, but Fortnine's most recent video deals with the carbs vs EFI debate: https://youtu.be/ZRNfyz1Cgvg
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Nov 15, 2021 03:37
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Finger Prince posted:So perhaps I should officially amend my initial statement. First gen SV just under the wire.
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Nov 15, 2021 06:25
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Captain McAllister posted:Not to stray back to carb chat, but Fortnine's most recent video deals with the carbs vs EFI debate: I can't tell what point is he trying to make
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Nov 15, 2021 06:32
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That’s every f9 video
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Nov 15, 2021 14:39
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Nitrox posted:I can't tell what point is he trying to make The advantages of FI apply more to cars than bikes. Video is ok except for the part where he said his Harley clogged up after 4 weeks of sitting um no. More likely there's sediment or something else in the tank and he's running filterless.
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Nov 15, 2021 15:07
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