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tsob posted:I don't even think it was necessarily if you tried to floor it; the guy whose Zudah explodes during testing at the start of the episode just seemed to be going through normal acceleration, and the problem was that he couldn't stop the acceleration and the stress it put on the engine because it was now locked to continuous acceleration and couldn't be stopped. It's funny because I genuinely think Dozel was right in that Big Zam was a game changer. IIRC isn't it one of the first instances of an I-Field being used to no-sell beam weapons? Big Zam and Apsalus were both solid machines, but they both slammed into Zeon's resource problem. I think people take M'Quve's comment about the resources he sent to space with not enough skepticism. It's not just tech. You need to have the factories and raw materials to produce the tech. Zeon was able to build up in the months leading up to the war, but once it started it was more or less "come as you are." Meanwhile, even with the damage inflicted on the Federation by the colony drop and subsequent invasion, they still had more productive capacity than Zeon. Even before they caught up, the Earth invasion had ground to a halt because the Federation could make enough tanks and planes to leverage their manpower advantage. Remember that Odessa was mostly conventional weapons on the Federation side. The more I think about it, the One Year War ended when the Antarctic Treaty was signed. The fighting just kept going because Zeon didn't get the memo.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:18
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fartknocker posted:Which suit brought about this question? Lady Haman's suit.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:19
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Warmachine posted:I think people take M'Quve's comment about the resources he sent to space with not enough skepticism. The bigger issue with M'Quve's statement is that M'Quve was working directly for Kycilia, who was personally involved in oversight of the mines and it's heavily implied she's holding some of the resources M'Quve is digging up for her own benefit so that she'll have units and resources that Gihren doesn't whenever she finally turns against him. So M'Quve might have dug up those resources, but Zeon as a whole didn't have access to them; only Kycilia. M'Quve and Kycilia didn't even want to share Doms with Ramba who was only working for Gihren indirectly through Dozle, never mind all that raw material.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:34
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Lady Haman's suit. The Qubeley? I don't think the AEUG had much more data on that thing than 'holy poo poo what the gently caress what the gently caress what the gently caress', especially since of the only two pilots who'd faced it in anything resembling a protracted engagement, one had disappeared and the other had catastrophic brain damage.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:41
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tsob posted:The bigger issue with M'Quve's statement is that M'Quve was working directly for Kycilia, who was personally involved in oversight of the mines and it's heavily implied she's holding some of the resources M'Quve is digging up for her own benefit so that she'll have units and resources that Gihren doesn't whenever she finally turns against him. So M'Quve might have dug up those resources, but Zeon as a whole didn't have access to them; only Kycilia. M'Quve and Kycilia didn't even want to share Doms with Ramba who was only working for Gihren indirectly through Dozle, never mind all that raw material. And that just loops back around to the issue of Zeon being incredibly inefficient and bad with its resources from the backbiting of all the various factions and sections of it constantly jockeying with each other.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:29
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Omnicrom posted:And that just loops back around to the issue of Zeon being incredibly inefficient and bad with its resources from the backbiting of all the various factions and sections of it constantly jockeying with each other.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:54
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#0110 - Haman's Black Shadow! Glass tubes in the sky like some sort of space elevator. Glemy is wearing some sort of proto-armor; looks silly. Another bathroom scene, and a new character intro for some... Puru girl. I'm groaning. Can't wait for Beecha and Mondo to get spaced. I'm hating this Puru girl setup. Did... did they literally get someone to get out of their car to check a bag of apples? Why is Judau being so dumb? "You shouldn't use Mobile Suits to kill people." I have some bad news for you Leina.  Oh, great, Lady Haman is mutating from all the Space Madness. Now she's the Spider Queen from Saturn V. Beecha manages to break a control lever on a Mobile Suit. Judau, for no particular reason, declares he's from the Argama, instead of just saying he was brought there by Puru. Judau uses Space Madness against Puru, it's super effective. Make this end.
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Nov 14, 2021 23:18
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#0111 - Puru and Axis Ship bonks a fake asteroid, says they should be more careful. Good opener so far. Judau literally just giving up the Double Z. This episode's taken a nosedive. Glemy claims that being a Gundam pilot corrupts those with weak characters, instantly calls out Roux, and then she hears him cry out for her. So... somehow Puru spits off the tape over her face. Not even gonna ask where that comes from, then somehow gets herself free AND captures Leina before any reaction.  Pictured: Undertaker and Kane on the way to Wrestlemania For the love of God please let this blast that ripped through the side of the hangar kill Glemy. Roux getting some cool kills, including a sick uppercut, before absolutely owning some chump who throws himself onto her beam saber. This Puru stuff sucks poo poo. Judau, you're half the reason the town is being blown up because you won't retreat. Bright willing to kill all of those sweet Axis children. Total War has yet to take place in this conflict (again, anyways).
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Nov 14, 2021 23:43
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#0112 Tearful Cecilia Part 1 Has... has enough time passed since Kamille's incapacitation for Wong to not remember who he is? Judau is a pizza purist, arguing they can only be round. Pete is bought off by one quarter. Torres tries to kill Judau multiple times. Cecilia is bought off with 4(!) quarters. These Axis spies are the worst. Mondo runs like he's Mario Luigi. drat I can't believe they've shown the only good security guards ever, the ones who ask for credentials and call in. Wong punches Bright like an rear end. I take back everything I've said about these guards. Ino finally gets the credit he deserves. Wong sucks, and I want him spaced.  Cool Judau is thrown off by an idiot saying he won't get to enjoy his mom's cooking if he dies. I feel like this is either part of, or the beginning of a meme. ....Annnnnd Judau's a mass murderer now.
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Nov 15, 2021 00:06
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Nessus posted:If Zeon was efficient and unified, they would have probably been able to win independence with, at most, a regular rear end war and zero colony drops (maybe one on Jaburo). But if they were efficient and unified they probably wouldn't just have been the Zabi family's personal province, either. If Zeon was efficient they wouldn't have needed a war in the first place. Not another one at least, given that Zeon Zum Deikun led a rebellion both Degwin and Gihren fought in around about the mid UC0060s according to Degwin in the third film. A rebellion that succeeded in advancing Deikun's cause, and forced the Federation to recognize Side 3 as the first autonomous Side. Deikun made Side 3 a republic after that, and while autonomy is not the same as complete independence it is also almost always a huge step on the way to it. Degwin took power based entirely on his account of Deikun's dying wish, meaning the Federation had little to no political oversight of Side 3 by that point, as well as exercising little to no military or economic oversight given Side 3's military build up and continuing commerce with both the Jupiter Energy Fleet and Side 6. Once Side 6 declared it's own indepdence at least. Which was either the mid to late UC0070s or in the opening days of the One Year War, depending on source. All of which means that Side 3 was well on it's way to gaining true, complete independence through purely political means and could probably have been completely free of the Federation by UC0100 if Gihren and Kycilia had (a) cared about that and (b) had any patience. They didn't though, and Kycilia solely cared about power so far as we know, while Gihren mostly cared about power but also seemed to have some Malthusian ideals about population control and resource starvation. What he really wanted was to reduce the population of the Earthsphere, which is why the war he started opened by destroying multiple Sides that killed billions of people in one go. He probably wanted to make the overall population easier to control by reducing it too, but his main goal was simply to slaughter people at the start. Which he accomplished. Independence was basically just a smoke screen to get the troops on side. You can't slaughter people by quietly and efficiently using politics to gain independence though; so war o'clock it is. Not just a small war of rebellion either. It had to be a total war. One that involved mass death and destruction. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 01:29
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Nov 15, 2021 01:56
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"Get to"; Bezos' inner authoritarian is starting to show.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:59
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Since we're already in the stupid timeline, doesn't this mean we're actually in the Wing universe?
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Nov 15, 2021 02:09
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Bloody Pom posted:Since we're already in the stupid timeline, doesn't this mean we're actually in the Wing universe? Not until we have someone with this glorious voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtI0Aal3C6w
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Nov 15, 2021 02:14
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fartknocker posted:Not until we have someone with this glorious voice: Finally, someone I can impersonate!
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Nov 15, 2021 02:16
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tsob posted:"Get to"; Bezos' inner authoritarian is starting to show. Starting?
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Nov 15, 2021 03:29
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i take offense at the idea that bezos has an inner authoritarian. the creepy fuckstick doesn't even bother to hide how evil he is.
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Nov 15, 2021 03:41
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tsob posted:"Get to"; Bezos' inner authoritarian is starting to show. https://www.c-span.org/video/?515984-1/jeff-bezos-nasa-administrator-bill-nelson-dni-avril-haines-discuss-us-space-policy https://thehill.com/changing-america/resilience/smart-cities/581353-jeff-bezos-predicts-humans-born-in-space-will-visit Don't assume any headline you see is true. He's only arguing that Earth has a limited carrying capacity and that in the future humanity will live in colonies.
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Nov 15, 2021 03:48
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He's a billionaire so he's automatically evil
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Nov 15, 2021 03:53
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The Principality of AmazeonGaius Marius posted:https://www.c-span.org/video/?515984-1/jeff-bezos-nasa-administrator-bill-nelson-dni-avril-haines-discuss-us-space-policy  Assepoester fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 04:13
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#0113 - Crybaby Cecilia Part 2 Imagine if Cecilia just... sold out the Axis instead. What is it with the one Axis dude with the incredible buck tooth? Why. Do. They. Suck. At. Holding. Prisoners. Ino didn't die from a high fall, thankfully. A lot of harming women going on. This entire season really, but it seems more prevalent. Gold Bullion in a briefcase, one has to wonder how much there is inside for it not to weigh a ton. Christ almighty Torres calm down. Jeez this episode got a lot heavier than I thought it would.  Impressive shooting, Judau! Hooray, Grey's dead! Cecilia... just THROW THE BOMB AWAY. You're in space, it'll be fine! Even just, grabbing a thruster pack, flying for speed and launching it is the same. Cecilia, I don't think it matters what Torres thinks right about now... 
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Nov 15, 2021 04:17
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Pretty clear that if Cecilia had thrown the bomb, she wouldn't have killed everyone she wanted to. 
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Nov 15, 2021 05:27
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Nessus posted:If Zeon was efficient and unified, they would have probably been able to win independence with, at most, a regular rear end war and zero colony drops (maybe one on Jaburo). But if they were efficient and unified they probably wouldn't just have been the Zabi family's personal province, either. The goal with British was a colony drop on Jaburo. It's just that the enemy gets a vote too. The interesting thing with the Zabi politics is that all three of the main players had very different goals, which also contributed to the infighting. Kycilia and Gihren's conflicts were a big contributing factor in Zeon's defeats, since they viewed the other as the "real" enemy, and the Federation as a temporary distraction. This, as Degwin realized quite quickly, and Gihren never learned, was a mistake.
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Nov 15, 2021 06:09
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I think it's really interesting that patricide was the straw that broke the camel's back for kycellia, the person who almost certainly killed sasoro. I assume that it wasn't really familial relations that was a big deal to her so much as she had some kind of genuine affection for degwin. I don't think kycellia ever really gives a stated or coherent ideology the way gihren does (hosed up as his ideology is). She doesn't really seem to have a philosophy beyond "gently caress you, got mine" and that's a neat contrast to gihren's uh, "logical" mass murder philosophy or degwin's more reserved fascism.
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Nov 15, 2021 11:18
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ninjewtsu posted:I think it's really interesting that patricide was the straw that broke the camel's back for kycellia, the person who almost certainly killed sasoro. I assume that it wasn't really familial relations that was a big deal to her so much as she had some kind of genuine affection for degwin. I don't think kycellia ever really gives a stated or coherent ideology the way gihren does (hosed up as his ideology is). She doesn't really seem to have a philosophy beyond "gently caress you, got mine" and that's a neat contrast to gihren's uh, "logical" mass murder philosophy or degwin's more reserved fascism. My read of her is that she was loyal to the Zabi family as a concept and Degwin in particular, but wanted to be the primary power holder/successor in the family whenever Degwin passed away. Since Dozle had no interest in becoming the family head in the slightest and had no head for politics, and Garma was still young, naive, and controllable, that only left Sasro and Gihren as rivals - though given how much everyone else loved and respected Garma, I imagine there would have been increasing friction possibly leading to conflict as Garma grew into his role. It would be interesting to see how the OYW would have gone if she had killed Gihren with a car bomb or something early on and was the primary Zabi military commander for most of it. I imagine she would have probably have pursued a much more limited war and accepted a much earlier ending of hostilities in exchange for Zeon being left with a continued power base in space, since she didn't share Gihren's genocidal ideals.
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Nov 15, 2021 11:49
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ninjewtsu posted:I think it's really interesting that patricide was the straw that broke the camel's back for kycellia, the person who almost certainly killed sasoro. I assume that it wasn't really familial relations that was a big deal to her so much as she had some kind of genuine affection for degwin. I don't think kycellia ever really gives a stated or coherent ideology the way gihren does (hosed up as his ideology is). She doesn't really seem to have a philosophy beyond "gently caress you, got mine" and that's a neat contrast to gihren's uh, "logical" mass murder philosophy or degwin's more reserved fascism. Kycilia may have harbored some emotional affection for Degwin, but it's very definitely not just that at play. When she meets Char an episode or two before A Baoa Qu to confront him with the fact she knows his identity she clearly and very heavily implies that she wants him to kill Gihren (which is outright explicit in the novel trilogy), telling him that they can deal with their past after dealing with Gihren and so on. She killed Gihren because Gihren gave her the publicly justifiable reason having killed his father and the people in Zeon already starting to speak in rumor about it, so as far as anyone looking at it from an outsider perspective would be concerned she was just doing her familial duty by getting revenge on Gihren for killing their father. She probably wasn't that broken up about Degwin, and just saw the opportunity of a perfectly justifiable reason that she wasn't going to let it pass. The way the scene is framed with her asking Gihren about it before hand does imply there's some emotion at play, but it's very clearly not the only thing on her mind. Kanos posted:It would be interesting to see how the OYW would have gone if she had killed Gihren with a car bomb or something early on and was the primary Zabi military commander for most of it. I imagine she would have probably have pursued a much more limited war and accepted a much earlier ending of hostilities in exchange for Zeon being left with a continued power base in space, since she didn't share Gihren's genocidal ideals. I doubt it. Degwin recognizes that Kycilia is as bad as Gihren in her own way, and Tomino's other material honestly makes her come off worse if anything given that in the original setting notes she's noted as being a cold as Gihren is calculating, while the novels put her and Gihren as acting in concert during the early days of the war when organizing the colony drop and agreeing on it's necessity as a tactic to overwhelm the Federation. If she was in power from early on she might have gone about things a bit differently, but she'd probably have been just as destructive in a different way ultimately. tsob fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 11:54
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I took it as gihren killing degwin was the point where she went "ok no more plots or safe indirect plans of getting rid of gihren, I'm just gonna ice him personally in the middle of the bridge because gently caress him he killed dad." I think with uh, everything about gihren, if she wanted a politically convenient means to openly kill him she wouldn't have needed to wait until he killed degwin. Having the reasoning be so simple, powerful, and clear cut definitely helped, but so much of the scene is spent on her just piecing together what gihren did that it wasn't exactly a calculated political move on her part.
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Nov 15, 2021 12:08
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I don't recall Gihren doing anything prior that would have been nearly as good a justification; or that the public had any good idea that he was that cold and pragmatic even about his family. Gihren did put up a front of caring about his family after all, and it was him that urged Degwin to hold a public funeral to act as a morale boost before giving a big speech eulogizing Garma. So the public probably thought him quite caring. Degwin himself just wanted a small family funeral. You can assume Gihren had done something the public would buy as justification for killing him before that, but that's not nearly as conclusive at the end of the day. Also, I'm pretty sure Kycilia basically knows exactly what happened before she ever arrives at A Baoa Qu, having been informed of it in transit. She just takes the time on the bridge to ask Gihren and let him speak for himself on the matter before she executes him. The fact she let him do that in a manner that none but the two of them would witness implies there is some emotion at play and she wanted to let him defend himself, but I doubt it was only then that she knew what had happened. tsob fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 12:18
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tsob posted:I don't recall Gihren doing anything prior that would have been nearly as good a justification; or that the public had any good idea that he was that cold and pragmatic even about his family. Gihren did put up a front of caring about his family after all, and it was him that urged Degwin to hold a public funeral to act as a morale boost before giving a big speech eulogizing Garma. So the public probably thought him quite caring. Degwin himself just wanted a small family funeral. You can assume Gihren had done something the public would buy as justification for killing him before that, but that's not nearly as conclusive at the end of the day. I think she thinks of it as crossing one of the very, very few lines she has left, which she probably previously assumed Gihren had too. Like, maybe he didn't know that Degwin was going to be hit, maybe it was a snap military decision where he regretted it later, maybe there's some other reason this is just the usual play and not him doing something even Kycilia thinks is beyond the pale. And then when he showed no regret, well, political games are done, he has to die now. The funny thing is, Gihren was at that very moment running a plan to frame her for trying to kill him as a power play. He just didn't expect her to actually do something face to face.
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Nov 15, 2021 12:28
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It seemed clear to me she was basically saying all that for the historical record and posterity, making sure all the other people with guns understood what she was saying and what it meant she was about to do.
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Nov 15, 2021 12:57
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Sextro posted:It seemed clear to me she was basically saying all that for the historical record and posterity, making sure all the other people with guns understood what she was saying and what it meant she was about to do. They're whispering while standing next to each other and no one on the bridge is hearing their conversation. She doesn't make any kind of public statement before or after shooting him. The bridge crew react with surprise when they see Gihren's corpse floating, and literally did not hear the shot. She's genuinely angry and outraged when she discovers that he murdered their father: https://files.catbox.moe/38i3dk.webm https://files.catbox.moe/1qe2je.webm chiasaur11 posted:I think she thinks of it as crossing one of the very, very few lines she has left, which she probably previously assumed Gihren had too. Like, maybe he didn't know that Degwin was going to be hit, maybe it was a snap military decision where he regretted it later, maybe there's some other reason this is just the usual play and not him doing something even Kycilia thinks is beyond the pale. And then when he showed no regret, well, political games are done, he has to die now. It's definitely this, and it's a shame this was cut out of The Origin because it's one of the very few humanising moments Kycilia gets. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 14:35
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Lemon-Lime posted:They're whispering while standing next to each other and no one on the bridge is hearing their conversation. She doesn't make any kind of public statement before or after shooting him. The bridge crew react with surprise when they see Gihren's corpse floating, and literally did not hear the shot. Yeah, you got it. I think my memory of the scene got tainted by a novel I read ripping it off.
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Nov 15, 2021 15:16
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Lemon-Lime posted:She doesn't make any kind of public statement before or after shooting him. ??? She immediately announces to the bridge crew that she killed gihren for assassinating Degwin, and follows up that she’ll be happy to face charges raised by any of them as long as they survive the battle first.
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Nov 15, 2021 15:36
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:??? She immediately announces to the bridge crew that she killed gihren for assassinating Degwin, and follows up that she’ll be happy to face charges raised by any of them as long as they survive the battle first. You're right, but it's not any kind of political statement or grand speech about why she had to kill Gihren. It's literally just to the bridge crew to snap them out of their stunned silence, because they're in the middle of a battle and being shot at.
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Nov 15, 2021 16:03
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Lemon-Lime posted:You're right, but it's not any kind of political statement or grand speech about why she had to kill Gihren. It's literally just to the bridge crew to snap them out of their stunned silence, because they're in the middle of a battle and being shot at. The fact she is saying it as a leader of Zeon who is now assuming direct command makes it inherently political. You cannot disentangle personal and political motive in that instance, because she is trying to take command in a combat situation and she needs those people to get back to work asap for any of them to have any chance of winning. A grandiose speech is going to be long, and thus be more than anyone can afford in that situation. Including Kycilia herself. Dismissing it as impossible to be political in nature, or more importantly, deceptive in nature, because it's short and simple is ignoring the reality of the situation at hand within that scene.
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Nov 15, 2021 16:11
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It's inherently political because she just performed an assassination, yes, that is not the same as her doing it purely or primarily for politically motivated reasons though. Kycellia is allowed to kill someone because she's angry without it being the crux of a long planned political scheme Well I mean she isn't exactly allowed to but you know
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Nov 15, 2021 23:22
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ninjewtsu posted:It's inherently political because she just performed an assassination, yes, that is not the same as her doing it purely or primarily for politically motivated reasons though. Kycellia is allowed to kill someone because she's angry without it being the crux of a long planned political scheme Definitely allowed to kill this specific person.
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Nov 15, 2021 23:26
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It's not just the fact she killed a political leader; it's that she's immediately assuming power in his place. Which is ignoring that we can infer from earlier scenes that she was planning to kill Gihren all along anyway, and speaking purely on the information that scene presents in and of itself. At no point did I deny that she may have felt some genuine emotion over it; only that she was also acting out of ambition in that moment, and that the two aren't really possible to separate. Just because she's angry does not mean she wasn't also acting on opportunity to advance her own agenda. You're acting as if it has to be one or the other, which is ridiculous.
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Nov 15, 2021 23:26
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No I don't think her political ambitions factored into it to any degree beyond "I was planning on doing something along these lines anyways so I've already gotten over any hesitations." Is there anything in the scene itself highlighting her political ambitions or directly linking them to her actions there? Because I recall the scene being almost entirely focused on her emotional state and reasoning. That it was politically convenient for her as well is background information. It doesn't have to be one or the other but in this particular case one of these was way more important at that specific moment in time Perhaps to put it another way, even if kycellia was not already planning on having gihren killed, I'm pretty sure she would have made the same decision regardless.
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Nov 15, 2021 23:47
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Immediately assuming power was probably a practical move before it was a political move, considering that they were in the middle of a giant space battle.
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Nov 16, 2021 00:10
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