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Harold Fjord posted:Shot by the CIA. Yeah an additional wrinkle is that the ruling class aren't afraid to drop the hammer on the left, unlike liberals and conservatives who get kid gloves. Gumball Gumption posted:I wonder what happened to that whole occupy movement. They sure we're a bunch of leftists who were making charges in the discourse and were getting people to listen to them and pay more attention to what's going on. Honestly you really can point to them as the start of a lot of the public awareness in how influenced things are. BLM leaders also have a habit of getting murdered super hard
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Nov 16, 2021 23:06
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:Same as education, really. This is very true, or from idealistic types that focus on "Growing" the agency or hospital or etc and end up ignore core functions until those functions rot out under them, then they wonder why staff is always quitting.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:10
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TulliusCicero posted:They are going to pay lip service to racial issues while doing nothing about them at all that would intefere with capitalism, until the heat death of the universe As they do with almost every other issue.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:19
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I think Freddie referring to funding ethnic studies classes in college as a "socialist policy goal " just triggers my inner pedant.
Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 23:20
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Grouchio posted:These are the people screaming "We just didn't call the angry parents foolish racists hard enough" as a strategy. They must be discredited if we are to keep seats. Is this a Realpolitik decision from you to cede our education system to racists, or do you really believe that schools were teaching Bad Things About Race (often referred to as CRT by right wing nutjobs)?
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Nov 16, 2021 23:21
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TulliusCicero posted:They are going to pay lip service to racial issues while doing nothing about them at all that would intefere with capitalism, until the heat death of the universe 
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Nov 16, 2021 23:22
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Main Paineframe posted:The left's not going to win elections by whining about weaksauce poo poo like losing to a write-in candidate, or getting called mean names by political rivals, or losing urban areas from their districts. I think you're right this time. It's an incredible onus put upon a minority of people though, as you acknowledge. Two party politics, crushing amounts of opposition funds, a media owned by the powers that be, and years of cultural brainwashing. The power we need is the people, but what power will we draw from to get them to join the cause? Edit even the "can't discuss it on the forums" solutions require the masses BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 23:22
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Grouchio posted:https://twitter.com/dsamuelsohn/status/1460649487114948620?s=20
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Nov 16, 2021 23:25
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Devor posted:Is this a Realpolitik decision from you to cede our education system to racists, or do you really believe that schools were teaching Bad Things About Race (often referred to as CRT by right wing nutjobs)? Parents are loving mad about school. The answer to the culture war over that is not focusing on CRT, it's addressing the things they are actually mad at like having no input in education, schools sucking in general, incredibly inconsistent covid policies that resulted in a lot of trouble for kids and teachers, etc etc. CRT is (probably) effective because it's funneling general dissatisfaction with schools into something that Democrats aren't going to address besides explaining that it isn't being taught and anyone saying it is is racist, which does nothing to make parents less mad. Like obviously Republicans aren't going to make schools any better, but Dems don't seem all that interested in it (or at least aren't doing a good job of promoting what they are doing) either.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:28
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So, like, they aren't actually teaching CRT in schools below the college level, and never have been, and almost certainly never will be. gently caress it, let the Right have its imaginary victory in exchange for concessions. Agree to mandate an immediate end to the teaching of Critical Race Theory in all public schools in exchange for some sort of concessions. Like the enemy is asking you to stop doing something you're not actually doing. Just make a performative show of 'stopping' and be loving done with it. Jesus.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:29
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The concept that if you can't get enough people to vote for an idea it means that either you're not doing a good enough job or it isn't actually a very good idea is literally the cornerstone of democracy. If you don't believe that, you don't believe in democracy as a system of government
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Nov 16, 2021 23:30
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Devor posted:Is this a Realpolitik decision from you to cede our education system to racists, or do you really believe that schools were teaching Bad Things About Race (often referred to as CRT by right wing nutjobs)? Have you won a lot of elections by calling them right wing nut jobs? Because it doesn't matter if you like it or not those right wing nut jobs are going to vote, you want them to vote democrat, and it's probably a better strategy to trick them into it than openly insulting them. The Republicans are able to trick them all the time.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:31
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I think that the tweet is overstating it and that the article is overselling the idea that there's party consensus on a message here. I mean, it leads with a bullet point and quote going "On a political level, it's a real threat" and concludes with another quote from someone else that includes "But this is not a threat to us."
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Nov 16, 2021 23:32
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Bread and circus agitating over imaginary issues like CRT will always be preferable to the ruling elites than real change that threatens their power and/or wealth. That’s part of why Dems ate so useless on issues like this. They don’t care about fixing failing schools or serving the people in any tangible way; their job is the perpetuation of the party apparatus itself. If they occasionally have to throw a few crumbs to the proles to get there, well fine, but let's not go too crazy when there's defense spending to be done.
F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 23:33
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:So, like, they aren't actually teaching CRT in schools below the college level, and never have been, and almost certainly never will be. Even if that were to happen they'd still yell about CRT. At this point in the context of the right it's an amorphous blob of stuff they hate about democrats wrt schools.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:33
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:So, like, they aren't actually teaching CRT in schools below the college level, and never have been, and almost certainly never will be. Sorry if I’m missing the obvious, but since when has Republican campaigning ever been based in fact? As near as I can tell they’re claiming everything from calling slavery race-based to mentioning Rosa Parks at all as being CRT, not to mention that even if you agree to this they’ll just move on to the next thing. I don’t have a good answer to it all, but I also don’t get what you mean when you say to agree to that mandate when the definition of CRT is (inaccurately) considered to be so vague. Plus there’s then the issue of actually getting concessions from Republicans, which usually seems to go poorly.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:35
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https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1460657860925394967?s=20 Manchin, freed from needing to care about BBB to get the BIF through, is reveling in his victory.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:36
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:So, like, they aren't actually teaching CRT in schools below the college level, and never have been, and almost certainly never will be. As someone who teaches history and lives in a state where an anti-CRT bill has been passed, absolutely not. They aren't gunning for Critical Race Theory, the grad-level scholarly discipline. They're coming for any historical education that even momentarily makes white people uncomfortable about the fact that the United States is built on racist systems and they or their ancestors may have been benefited/been complicit in that. They want history education to be patriotic indoctrination, and if you don't find that horrifying, I really don't know what to tell you.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:41
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Fighting Trousers posted:As someone who teaches history and lives in a state where an anti-CRT bill has been passed, absolutely not. I know that. But I mean, loving call their bluff is my point. I'm sick of the Democrats (in general but I repeat myself) pretending that these are 'people' you can negotiate with in good faith. loving call their bluff. Ask them to define what CRT is and then ask them to explain why they are using a term that refers to a specific school of legal thought to describe the teaching of factual history and what their problems are. You're not going to shame these people, because they're not people, but loving quit at least playing the game on their terms. At least give your base *something*.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:45
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Neurolimal posted:https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1460657860925394967?s=20 Not that the passage of the BIF wasn't a huge victory for Manchin, but "reveling in his victory" looks a lot like "exactly what he's been doing since March." RoboChrist 9000 posted:I know that. But I mean, loving call their bluff is my point.  )Also throw some arguable lies in there - find the cuddliest, most non-polarizing parts of African American history that don't scare any white people and say Republicans want to ban teaching it. "They want to ban Rosa Parks! They want to ban George Washington Carver! They want to ban Jackie Robinson!" (yes I realize all three of those people were incredibly badass and brave but they don't make anybody who "doesn't see color" uncomfortable today.) Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 23:47
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Mellow Seas posted:Not that the passage of the BIF wasn't a huge victory for Manchin, but "reveling in his victory" looks a lot like "exactly what he's been doing since March." I heard he's winning so much that he's sick of it.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:47
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Zeron posted:like having no input in education Parents have a ton of input in education in the US, it's why schools and being a teacher suck so bad. Parents should have way less influence and involvement with school life.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:07
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Fame Douglas posted:Parents have a ton of input in education in the US, it's why schools and being a teacher suck so bad. Parents should have way less influence and involvement with school life. Obviously. That doesn't mean that parents feel that way though. Of course they want input on their kids lives and development. Edit: Why should they trust that schools have their children's best interests in mind when like, no one is happy with the way schools are? It's the same as doctors and health. Like objectively you should trust doctors, but a lot of people get substandard medical care and lovely doctors (to say less of the many, many bad things the US healthcare system has done in the past) and that doesn't exactly make them feel like they -should- trust them. Zeron fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 00:10
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eviltastic posted:I think that the tweet is overstating it and that the article is overselling the idea that there's party consensus on a message here. I mean, it leads with a bullet point and quote going "On a political level, it's a real threat" and concludes with another quote from someone else that includes "But this is not a threat to us."
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Nov 17, 2021 00:24
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Gumball Gumption posted:Have you won a lot of elections by calling them right wing nut jobs? Because it doesn't matter if you like it or not those right wing nut jobs are going to vote, you want them to vote democrat, and it's probably a better strategy to trick them into it than openly insulting them. The Republicans are able to trick them all the time. Republicans aren't tricking them. They know exactly what is up. This is about making sure white people don't hear about things white people did. This is about making sure white supremacy remains the law of the land. They have no idea what CRT is, never did, and don't want to. RoboChrist 9000 posted:I know that. But I mean, loving call their bluff is my point. You're not going to "call their bluff" by asking what this is, you can't reason them out of racism. Everyone involved in this already knows what is going on. It's racists exerting their power to make it clear that white supremacy should not be challenged.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:26
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:So, like, they aren't actually teaching CRT in schools below the college level, and never have been, and almost certainly never will be. Yeah for real, if you're explaining you're losing. I still can't believe McAuliffe didn't just say "I hear you and I guarantee as long as I am governor critical race theory will never be taught in public schools" which isn't even lie because it isn't anyway and if Republicans want to accuse him of lying make them explain that they mean kids were being taught that General Lee owned slaves or whatever dumb poo poo they're mad about.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:31
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I would absolutely vote for more Democrats if they aggressively called out the Republicans for being racists Just hammer them on the "Southern Strategy" until they have a meltdown
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Nov 17, 2021 00:33
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Harold Fjord posted:I genuinely have no idea what this part is supposed to be responding to but the fact is that rich liberals with news shows will unite with conservatives to undermine leftism every time so it's not an easy ticket. But that's no excuse for politicians to not try to do the right thing. My mind went straight to Chris Mathews having an on air panic attack about Bernie's storm troopers sending him to the gulag. VitalSigns posted:Yeah for real, if you're explaining you're losing. "Hell yeah we're gonna make sure there's no bamboo fibers in our ballots. Now let me tell you about single payer healthcare."
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Nov 17, 2021 00:34
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah for real, if you're explaining you're losing. He wouldn't have even had to do anything; just keep promising that "I'm working on routing out CRT" and continuing with an agenda that unfucks the state.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:36
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Froghammer posted:The concept that if you can't get enough people to vote for an idea it means that either you're not doing a good enough job or it isn't actually a very good idea is literally the cornerstone of democracy. If you don't believe that, you don't believe in democracy as a system of government Democracy is not exactly enjoying a high water mark of support on this forum at the moment. I think popular opinion is converging on some sort of enlightened mob rule with a great deal of flexibility regarding the definitions of "mob", "enlightened" and "rule". Seriously, I have a hard time hearing "gently caress electoralism" as anything other than a rejection of democracy as a principle, which leads to a lot of weird follow-up questions.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:38
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I know that. But I mean, loving call their bluff is my point. There is no bluff to call. They know perfectly well they're not "banning CRT". That's not what any of these laws actually do.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:39
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:He wouldn't have even had to do anything; just keep promising that "I'm working on routing out CRT" and continuing with an agenda that unfucks the state. Yes adopt the framing of white supremacists this is a good way to victory.  The actual move here is to ignore the debate entirely and blow it off every time it's brought up, while doing actual good policy and promoting the actual good policy. What in the gently caress is going on in this thread?
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Nov 17, 2021 00:40
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Main Paineframe posted:You can say "electoralism" with so much bile and venom that it sounds like you're spitting it, but I'd love to hear your path to leftist political power that doesn't involve winning actual public support for the leftist movement. Whether you want to send those supporters to the voting booths or something else, there's no substitute in leftist politics for winning the support of the people. Or at the very least, there's no substitute that's legal to talk about on a public forum. ... what exactly makes you think I'm spouting bile and venom, exactly? I'm not a political strategist and have no idea on what the optimal strategy is, but 'winning the support of people' is vague and not really a plan. Plenty of people have advocated for different strategies from focusing on local politics, advocacy groups, unionization before (or in addition to) electing left-leaning Democrats to Congress. I didn't express an opinion on that but I would expect someone who took the time to write a letter in the NYT to do so. The author's point that taking support of socialist policies for granted is a mistake is fine, but it's not entirely clear that "convincing a skeptical public that socialist policies and values are good for them and the country" will necessarily lead to electoral victory. I mean the last month of this thread has been all about how polling and the recent elections were largely unaffected by the drama over the infrastructure and BBB bills.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:43
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Fame Douglas posted:Parents have a ton of input in education in the US, it's why schools and being a teacher suck so bad. Parents should have way less influence and involvement with school life. Yeah but you don't say that to their faces. You tell them you value their input and will listen to them, then (if you actually want to improve society somewhat) you get in and fix the funding and resource and hiring problems, and if any of the things you were going to do anyway happened to be things parents asked for too, you say "there I did what you wanted as promised", and you ignore the bad ideas, and you hope that you fixed the schools enough that most of them stop caring and the only ones still mad are cranks you can safely ignore forever. Or you slash budgets, funnel the funds to your charter school CEO donors who run off with the money halfway through the year and dump their kids back on the even poorer public system, and smugly tell parents it's not their call how you educate their kids that works too (at getting sweatervest stockpickers elected to privatize the crosswalks)
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Nov 17, 2021 00:47
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Jaxyon posted:Yes adopt the framing of white supremacists this is a good way to victory. That's more or less what I was advocating, but point taken about adopting their framing. Terry would have been far better off letting that issue die on the vine rather than "Streisanding" it with that ad "explaining" his position, but that's water under the bridge. Some of parents' concerns about public schools are valid and should be addressed and fixed.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:49
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The vote to ban the books was 6-0. The vote to burn them was 2-4. https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1460743407224213505
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Nov 17, 2021 00:51
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:That's more or less what I was advocating, but point taken about adopting their framing. Terry would have been far better off letting that issue die on the vine rather than "Streisanding" it with that ad "explaining" his position, but that's water under the bridge Tmac failed because he didn't have anything useful to run on. And yes he should have just straight ignored CRT poo poo, he was never getting those voters. quote:Some of parents' concerns about public schools are valid and should be addressed and fixed. Yes and those people are largely separate from seething mobs of white supremacists who are scared kids are gonna learn that white people are the baddies.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:54
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but you don't say that to their faces. This is very much why US schools suck so bad and they're not getting better. You should be able to tell parents that no, their dumb ideas aren't working and that they'll just have to accept that their kid got a bad grade without threatening to sue and throwing a tantrum. Having parents very involved with everything is a big part of why teaching is such an unattractive proposition.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:57
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Jaxyon posted:Republicans aren't tricking them. That's tricking them. They've been tricked into being white supremacists. They've been convinced it's in their best interest even when it isn't. That white supremacy helps rich whites steal from poor whites while telling them it's in their best interest since the beginning. The majority of white supremacy's supporters would be better off in a world without it but they've been tricked into believing otherwise.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:58
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The vote to ban the books was 6-0. This wasn't somewhere out in the boonies either, it was in one of those nice respectable white communities Schumer and co sold out the whole rest of the country to pander to
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Nov 17, 2021 00:59
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