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Gumball Gumption posted:They were through the invention of white people. People hating people, tribes hating tribes, is all very ancient. Race and racism is a pretty new idea from the 16th and 17th century. that's a more succinct way to put it
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Nov 17, 2021 23:00
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Burning_Monk posted:Why? There has been plenty of evidence that it was. Right up to people using violence to stop the election from being certified. They killed people to stop it. There is video. A coup usually involves a certain amount of planning, conspiring, and political wheeling and dealing that doesn't really seem applicable to the group of rubes that are actually getting in trouble. Trazz posted:Why are you downplaying a white-nationalist coup on my country? Why are you not answering the question Halloween Jack posted:A professor I work with is teaching a class on racial identity in ancient history. He asked me to order a pile of books all with titles like The Invention of Race in the Middle Ages, The Invention of Race in Antiquity, and so on. So it's an ongoing debate when humans developed the concept of "racism" as distinct from other concepts of bigotry and fear of the Other. From what I know, I tend to side with the viewpoint that "race" was invented in the early modern period to justify the extreme brutality of settler colonialism and plantation slavery, but it remains controversial. When I was studying just a year or two ago this seemed to be the general consensus opinion as well. There are for example statues throughout Germany of St. Maurice that have been around since the 1300s, etc (and there are artistic depictions of "Moorish" saints, etc). Of course one statue of a black guy doesn't mean that maybe there wasn't any racism afoot, but it would seem strange for a deeply racist society to venerate black saints. Cow Bell fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:05
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GreyjoyBastard posted:While he worded it poorly (and afaik is wrong about the timeframe), there was definitely a shift in how race was perceived institutionally in the West that just so happened to coincide with the dawn of the transAtlantic slave trade, the Enlightenment, and (slightly earlier?) some complicated stuff in Spanish and Portuguese colonies regarding who you were theologically and legally allowed to enslave. Gumball Gumption posted:They were through the invention of white people. People hating people, tribes hating tribes, is all very ancient. Race and racism is a pretty new idea from the 16th and 17th century.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:05
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Halloween Jack posted:Yeah, and that's fine by me. I only reject the framing of the riot as a political coup. It's not a loving "framing," jesus loving christ, it WAS a political coup!!!!! I hate it when people use words like "framing" or "narrative" so that they can try to weasel their way around having to address the loving facts of the matter
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Nov 17, 2021 23:08
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VitalSigns posted:Quibbling about the QAnon Shaman seems kind of farcical when the ringleader not only hasn't even been charged but also has a decent chance of getting elected president again 3 years from now Yeah, from where I'm standing that dude still seems like the main problem and it sucks that it looks like he's going to be walking free for the remainder of his days.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:11
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Cow Bell posted:A coup usually involves a certain amount of planning, conspiring, and political wheeling and dealing that doesn't really seem applicable to the group of rubes that are actually getting in trouble. "usually" is holding a lot of weight here. So it wasn't planned enough despite the intent, purpose and direct actions of those involved that relied on them coordinating to travel great distances, meet up and then as a group move to the Capital at the exact same time as election certification was happening there? Sure... okay... ya. Burning_Monk fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:11
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Halloween Jack posted:Yeah, and that's fine by me. I only reject the framing of the riot as a political coup. If a mugger botches an attempt at mugging and just beats someone up without stealing a thing, what do you call the event? Their idiocy doesn't change the fact that core elements intended it to be an overturning of the election.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:15
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Decon posted:If a mugger botches an attempt at mugging and just beats someone up without stealing a thing, what do you call the event? Assault and battery?
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Nov 17, 2021 23:15
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Halloween Jack posted:A professor I work with is teaching a class on racial identity in ancient history. He asked me to order a pile of books all with titles like The Invention of Race in the Middle Ages, The Invention of Race in Antiquity, and so on. So it's an ongoing debate when humans developed the concept of "racism" as distinct from other concepts of bigotry and fear of the Other. From what I know, I tend to side with the viewpoint that "race" was invented in the early modern period to justify the extreme brutality of settler colonialism and plantation slavery, but it remains controversial. Ngl, if you get a chance to read those books yourself or at least his synopses, I'd be real interested in your thoughts.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:17
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Cow Bell posted:A coup usually involves a certain amount of planning, conspiring, and political wheeling and dealing that doesn't really seem applicable to the group of rubes that are actually getting in trouble. Yes, I'm sure that your bad-faith sea-lioning bullshit will totally dispel my outrage over a loving WHITE NATIONALIST COUP
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Nov 17, 2021 23:19
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i mean...they printed t-shirts. just because the plan was half baked lovely and stupid doesn't mean an attempt wasn't made. poo poo, it was basically the same plan that killed ben ghazi and the gop didn't shut up about that for...ever...
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Nov 17, 2021 23:19
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Ngl, if you get a chance to read those books yourself or at least his synopses, I'd be real interested in your thoughts. The History of White People is a great, academic but readable history. Goes from the ancient world through deranged phrenologists into the modern era.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:20
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Yeah, from where I'm standing that dude still seems like the main problem and it sucks that it looks like he's going to be walking free for the remainder of his days. QAnon shaman was definitely the most visible player whose name doesn't rhyme with Clump, but he's far from the most dangerous. Afaict he wasn't much involved with the planning, he didn't have a particularly clear plan himself, and he certainly wasn't one of the extremely troubling militia folks who showed up with significant preparation and a definite desire to start killing legislators if they could manage it. I'm hoping the reason none of those people have been tried yet is because the feds are making sure their ducks are all in a row.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:20
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Burning_Monk posted:"usually" is holding a lot of weight here. Seriously. They handed out coup flyers and their coup leaders did a coup rally before they took a coup march up the road to the capital to do a coup. I understand the desire to not let the carceral/authoritarian state seize on this moment to take more power but come on. It was an attempted coup. GreyjoyBastard posted:I'm hoping the reason none of those people have been tried yet is because the feds are making sure their ducks are all in a row. Perhaps the most visible militia-esque guy that day, zip tie guy, is couch surfing because he was evicted while awaiting trial on his 11 charges after bonding out. Once he goes to trial though, he's hosed. Cow Bell posted:Assault and battery? Uh in many states this would be "robbery in the second degree". This is dumb as poo poo. skylined! fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:22
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Ngl, if you get a chance to read those books yourself or at least his synopses, I'd be real interested in your thoughts. Yeah same My understanding of it basically mirrors Greyjoy's
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Nov 17, 2021 23:22
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Decon posted:If a mugger botches an attempt at mugging and just beats someone up without stealing a thing, what do you call the event? The things that rub me wrong about the insurrection are:
virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:23
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Halloween Jack posted:A professor I work with is teaching a class on racial identity in ancient history. He asked me to order a pile of books all with titles like The Invention of Race in the Middle Ages, The Invention of Race in Antiquity, and so on. So it's an ongoing debate when humans developed the concept of "racism" as distinct from other concepts of bigotry and fear of the Other. From what I know, I tend to side with the viewpoint that "race" was invented in the early modern period to justify the extreme brutality of settler colonialism and plantation slavery, but it remains controversial. Also kind of depends on the definition of racism--there absolutely were a number of examples of oppression of Jewish people, Muslim people, etc. long before the early modern period, but whether that was "racism" specifically, as opposed to religious or ethnic persecution, is a different question. Also, it's not necessarily confined to Europeans--for example there were a number of massacres of different groups of peoples in China dating back well over a thousand years, based in part on physical characteristics, but again, I guess it depends on the definition of racism used.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:23
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VitalSigns posted:Quibbling about the QAnon Shaman seems kind of farcical when the ringleader not only hasn't even been charged but also has a decent chance of getting elected president again 3 years from now I'm happy to go back to Trump Bad and "actually we should adopt white supremacy framings of CRT". White guys getting away with poo poo or reduced consequences is pretty much just America.txt
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Nov 17, 2021 23:24
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Halloween Jack posted:A professor I work with is teaching a class on racial identity in ancient history. He asked me to order a pile of books all with titles like The Invention of Race in the Middle Ages, The Invention of Race in Antiquity, and so on. So it's an ongoing debate when humans developed the concept of "racism" as distinct from other concepts of bigotry and fear of the Other. From what I know, I tend to side with the viewpoint that "race" was invented in the early modern period to justify the extreme brutality of settler colonialism and plantation slavery, but it remains controversial. Yeah, it's a lot more complicated than my short answer which is more race as we know it and specifically white vs non-white. I don't know the invention of race in antiquity but I believe the invention of race in the middle ages is about the religious divides and making the argument that they were also racial, which I think I'd agree with but I'd need to read it. Again, there has always been tribal conflict between humans and how we define those tribes and divisions is always in flux. I would pretty much say the same thing, race and it's modern concept are from the modern period to justify settler colonialism. Race as a general concept has existed for longer. Like, I absolutely believe people in ancient antiquity were racist it just doesn't have much to explain our modern concepts of it. But if you told me the Romans have varying beliefs of "just how Roman are you?" based on skin I'd believe it.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:24
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Cow Bell posted:Assault and battery? Okay. How about if I tell someone I have a deadly shrimpy allergy, they spend months telling people in person and online that they're gonna feed me shrimp and kill me, and then, when they do feed me shrimp, I have a minor reaction and don't die? What do we call that one? I can come up with more silly metaphors to make the point that the intent was a coup even if the actors were dipshits, so I'm going to point out what they meant to do.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:29
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I'm not like a historian but I feel like if you went to Norman monks and told them the blonde pagans raiding their shores are the same white culture and civilization as them but the Patriarchs of Antioch or Alexandria are impossibly foreign and racially inferior to Normans and Swedes alike because they have a tan along with pretty much the entire rest of the eastern Roman empire, they'd think you're a looney Ditto if you went further back to the Roman Empire and told them they needed to be racist against their North African emperor because Carthaginians aren't white people and hey why not a Saxon or Brittanian for emperor to whiten up the administration and civilize things properly, they'd also conclude you must be some kind of idiot. Getting out the color wheel to show Caesar Septimus Severus how to figure out who is civilized or not. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:31
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Gumball Gumption posted:Yeah, it's a lot more complicated than my short answer which is more race as we know it and specifically white vs non-white. I don't know the invention of race in antiquity but I believe the invention of race in the middle ages is about the religious divides and making the argument that they were also racial, which I think I'd agree with but I'd need to read it. Again, there has always been tribal conflict between humans and how we define those tribes and divisions is always in flux. I would pretty much say the same thing, race and it's modern concept are from the modern period to justify settler colonialism. Race as a general concept has existed for longer. Like, I absolutely believe people in ancient antiquity were racist it just doesn't have much to explain our modern concepts of it. But if you told me the Romans have varying beliefs of "just how Roman are you?" based on skin I'd believe it. I think there is so much work to make understandings of power dynamics and hierarchies more widespread. Race fits into it; you have to make someone lesser to treat them the way chattel slaves were treated. But hierarchies are all around us, and when you hear of poo poo like the Catholic priests or Boy Scout leaders behaving like they do you can find a power structure that demands loyalty flow upward unconditionally, and only conditionally downward. I’d go as far to say that any sufficiently reified hierarchy will contain abuse. Mormon church will have their day, MLMs are probably rife with it. Show me a hierarchy and I’ll show you a structure that is extremely good at refusing true accountability.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:32
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Decon posted:Okay. I dunno what to tell ya. I have an outrage threshold and “goofy rear end dude who farted in Nancy pelosi’s office” doesn’t even make a blip in comparison to “guy who orchestrated the baby’s first coup is going to win in 2024 because the Dems are terrible”. I’m sure others feel the same.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:33
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Boebert responds to Gosar's ouster and it is absolutely wild. Calls Ilhan Omar a member of the 'jihad squad', so get ready to see that dumb poo poo on a t-shirt and on facebook in the next few days. https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1461073375523229707?s=20 This is just absolutely wild. virtualboyCOLOR posted:I dunno what to tell ya. Incredibly disingenuous bordering on maliciousness to frame what several thousand people did at the capital on Jan 6th as farting on Pelosi's desk or whatever. Many of these people were literally looking for congresspeople to murder. One of them was shot by police while trying to break into the congressional chambers. A bunch of people died. skylined! fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:34
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From the moment the coup attempt fizzled the only sure thing was that the "What, do they give Nobel prizes in attempted chemistry?" argument would be used unironically to dismiss it. At least the argument that the people in front are being prosecuted more vigorously than the people behind has a little substance.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:35
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There was no "insurrection". There was no vast "white supremacist" conspiracy to overthrow the US Government. Some bored people milled about the Senate chambers; others broke some windows. A man who wandered around in a weird costume and shouted with his friends shouldn't be facing decades in prison. Some "coup" when a bunch of guys pissed off that Trump didn't win smashed windows, stole a lectern from Pelosi, vandalized her office and some other minor stuff. These people should not be facing years in prison for embarrassing Democrats. I didn't know that was a federal crime now. 1/6 was not the end of the world. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 17, 2021 23:36
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It was an attempted coup, however when the actual politicians calling it an attempted coup are absolutely not in anyway acting like an attempted coup actually happened it still manages to ring false. If you go and talk about how your coworkers tried to have you murdered and overthrow the legitimate election results and then walk to work and shake hands with those same coworkers and help them pass military funding while doing nothing to prevent a future coup, it absolutely does not come across as sincere and just sounds like a smear.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:36
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not like a historian but I feel like if you went to Norman monks and told them the blonde pagans raiding their shores are the same white culture and civilization as them but the Patriarchs of Antioch or Alexandria are impossibly foreign and racially inferior to Normans and Swedes alike because he has a tan along with pretty much the entire rest of the eastern Roman empire, they'd think you're a looney Hell, just go back far enough and tell the Brits that they're the same white culture and civilization of the French across the water and the Irish also across the water and they will think you're nuts.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:38
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haveblue posted:I haven't watched the video but if he swapped anything related to authentication and the chain of trust (which would include things like cameras and fingerprint sensors) those are linked to individual devices by unique IDs so they're not interchangeable. Presumably releasing that procedure is part of this new initiative. It's everything - he swaps logic boards between the devices, essentially "replacing" every extraneous part in each device. The device displays several overt messages about the "replacements" not being genuine, but then triggers several glitchy payloads that cause software to become laggy and disabling certain features with no particular logic to it, like disabling the battery capacity display in the notification bar, refusing to take panorama shots in the Camera app, and disabling True Tone. It obviously isn't a hardware issue since they're brand new parts from identical devices, which leads me to believe it's intentional sabotage to make the user believe that any hardware replacements done outside of Apple were botched, not unlike anti-piracy features in old video games.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:40
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skylined! posted:Seriously. They handed out coup flyers and their coup leaders did a coup rally before they took a coup march up the road to the capital to do a coup. Not singling you out, but I will point out that the FBI disagrees with your assesment, for what it's worth. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/    I wasn't able to locate any articles that were more recent that show the FBI have changed their assessment, but if they have please let me know.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:42
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Killer robot posted:From the moment the coup attempt fizzled the only sure thing was that the "What, do they give Nobel prizes in attempted chemistry?" argument would be used unironically to dismiss it. At least the argument that the people in front are being prosecuted more vigorously than the people behind has a little substance. a surprising number of definitely acknowledged attempted coups around the world consist of "attackers seize buildings and then stand around like idiots until arrested by the people they failed to subvert because they didn't have a step two", and more than a few successful coups were incredibly stupid I'm very fond of Gaddafi's successful one in Libya, where his saving grace was that the central government was even more amazingly, hilariously, unfathomably incompetent and he had just enough buddies to swing the armed forces after a series of massive fuckups
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Nov 17, 2021 23:42
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Peter Daou Zen posted:There was no "insurrection". There was no vast "white supremacist" conspiracy to overthrow the US Government. Some bored people milled about the Senate chambers; others broke some windows. A man who wandered around in a weird costume and shouted with his friends shouldn't be facing decades in prison. Those "bored people" literally dragged police officers from the barricades and beat them unconscious. Something like 140 of the people trying to guard the building were injured, including particularly notable cases like the one police officer who got crushed in a door and was screaming in pain while desperately trying to keep the people assaulting him from getting further into the building.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:43
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:I dunno what to tell ya. I'm not saying I'm brimming with outrage. But I am okay with participants in an idiot's attempted coup get in trouble for it. I'd also prefer to see the leadership of the whole thing go down, but I still won't abide minimization of what the cannon fodder of the group intended to do.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:43
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The coup was planned on online platforms like thedonald (now patriots.win) and egged on by Donald Trump himself, calling for people to protest at the capitol and that it "will be wild". The situation evolved from that, just because there was no fixed plan on what would happen doesn't mean people weren't there for a specific reason.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:44
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skylined! posted:Boebert responds to Gosar's ouster and it is absolutely wild. Calls Ilhan Omar a member of the 'jihad squad', so get ready to see that dumb poo poo on a t-shirt and on facebook in the next few days. Why is time being wasted over some stupid rear end anime with after effects cut outs? If you are gonna censure folks for violent speech there’s far worse things said and done by other Republican house members than that. Representatives that supported the baby’s first coup are still in the house. This seems like a stupid mis step and distraction on the part of Dems. It’s just begging for the meme “healthcare pls”. It’s all so silly. quote:
I don’t think the Shaman had anything to do with that. And the folks that tazzed their balls to death died because of the dude that the Dems are rolling out the red carpet for in 2024 and doing gently caress all about now. It doesn’t register. Fame Douglas posted:The coup was planned on online platforms like thedonald (now patriots.win) and egged on by Donald Trump himself, calling for people to protest at the capitol and that it "will be wild". The situation evolved from that, just because there was no fixed plan on what would happen doesn't mean people weren't there for a specific reason. If it’s that serious than the Dems should probably go after the planners that were/are in a position of power instead of using Jan/6 as fundraiser emails and getting mad about anime memes. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:44
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das hipster posted:Not singling you out, but I will point out that the FBI disagrees with your assesment, for what it's worth. A lot of antifascists activists shared a ton of evidence from telegram that there was coordination on travel to the capital for a 'demonstration' including digital flyers. The FBI may not see that as clearing the bar for evidence, but it is. Regardless, the planning and incitement was out in the open; all that the FBI is saying is that they don't have enough evidence to charge people with specific crimes. Further, the house select committee investigating just subpoena'd people suspected of helping to organize rallys on Jan 6/. There is more to learn. Peter Daou Zen posted:There was no "insurrection". There was no vast "white supremacist" conspiracy to overthrow the US Government. Some bored people milled about the Senate chambers; others broke some windows. A man who wandered around in a weird costume and shouted with his friends shouldn't be facing decades in prison. This bullshit is doing the work of fascists for them. Just an utter fiction completely detached from reality, easily disproven by the very camera footage that insurrectionists took themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXnHIJkZZAs skylined! fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 23:47
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das hipster posted:Not singling you out, but I will point out that the FBI disagrees with your assesment, for what it's worth. I wouldn't trust the people who killed Malcolm X to be truthful about this.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:48
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The true danger of January 6 insurrection hinges on a technical understanding of the nature of Pence's football that we will not have for decades. We truly do not understand what was at risk there. I understand that the plotters (Trump) were already in command of the arsenal, but the question remains what an extremist faction or foreigners/outsiders embedded within the insurrectionary mob would have been able to do had Pence been captured with his football intact. My surface level understanding is that with the VP and the football you could likely order a launch, especially if POTUS were not reachable (holed up with the TV, which is confirmed), as this would be the likely circumstance during a nuclear attack on DC with the VP out of the city. Thus, I suspect the insurrectionists should have been gunned down where they stood, the same as they would've been at a weapons lab, where the security is equipped with armored vehicles, grenade machineguns, and miniguns. "Trump holed up and Pence incapacitated" would have also been an excellent opportunity for an adversary first strike. The senior executive leadership of the US is, in video game terms, a "load-bearing boss" due to its incredibly brittle and centralized role in nuclear command and control, where if you can't end the world in a few seconds/minutes, you don't have a credible deterrent. Regardless of where you stand on this (I think it's probably very unsafe!) it needs to be brought up in any 1/6 discussion.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:54
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The "football" is completely irrelevant theater, why would you focus on that. Insurrectionists getting the "football" would have never allowed them to launch nukes. The actual threat was Pence going through with their outlined plan for contesting the election, which he ended up not doing.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:59
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Treating 1/6 as a foreign plot to get around MAD and pull off a successful nuclear first strike on the US is a joke right
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Nov 18, 2021 00:01
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