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Wang Commander posted:I suspect the insurrectionists should have been gunned down where they stood, What the gently caress
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Nov 18, 2021 00:03
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:This seems like a stupid mis step and distraction on the part of Dems. Fancy that
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Nov 18, 2021 00:03
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Wang Commander posted:The true danger of January 6 insurrection hinges on a technical understanding of the nature of Pence's football that we will not have for decades. We truly do not understand what was at risk there. I understand that the plotters (Trump) were already in command of the arsenal, but the question remains what an extremist faction or foreigners/outsiders embedded within the insurrectionary mob would have been able to do had Pence been captured with his football intact. I think what would happen is that they would gently caress up the codes and the military wouldn't launch anything. The football isn't a big red nuke button. It's instructions and a private communication setup so the president can call the military and provide codes and instructions on launching nukes which the military confirms and then launches. I guess the biggest risk is that someone strikes the US when we can't retaliate but that's an insanely stupid strategy and only exists in a world where you think North Korea and Russia are cartoon villains instead of nation states with their own goals and interests.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:04
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Gumball Gumption posted:I wouldn't trust the people who killed Malcolm X to be truthful about this. Can you explain why you feel that they're lying in this case? In terms of investigation, they have access to more information than anyone in this thread does, and are more qualified to make an assessment. If you have any evidence that they are lying or covering for someone(s), I'd be very interested in reading it, would you mind sharing? This also goes hand in hand with the fact that typically the penalties for treasonous acts are usually quite harsh, yet we aren't seeing charges or sentences that would suggest that anyone in charge considered this an actual attempt to overthrow the government. I'd argue that real coup is ongoing, with extreme gerrymandering and working to suppress voter turn outs in largely democrat controlled areas in order to ensure a single party republican state with just the thinnest veneer of democracy to make everything still look legitimate. That's the real threat here.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:04
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If absolutely nothing else, the secretary of defense or definitely, positively delegated minion has to verify "yes it is the president who gave this launch order"
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Nov 18, 2021 00:06
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Halloween Jack posted:
this actually would be a coup btw
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Nov 18, 2021 00:09
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I'm sorry if it's a derail but the timeframe of launch on warning or similar doesn't leave a lot of room for checks and balances. We'll probably never know, but you have maybe 90 seconds in a lot of cases to give the order and have it verified and passed on.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:09
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The insurrectionists authorize nuclear strikes; Tim Gionet bakes Alaska.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:16
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:
This is where I stand on it. If it was actually an attempted coup (and I agree that it was), then the Dems should have acted swiftly to remove the instigators from Congress. Instead we got a second meaningless impeachment of Trump followed by endless committees, and just now they're cracking down on a few rank and file chucklefucks. Like for gently caress's sake, Matt Gaetz is still a sitting congressman and he's been accused of sex trafficking. The Dems are just gonna yell and pound the table but not actually do anything about it.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:19
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Cow Bell posted:What the gently caress This topic is really turning out some interesting takes.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:21
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Fister Roboto posted:This is where I stand on it. If it was actually an attempted coup (and I agree that it was), then the Dems should have acted swiftly to remove the instigators from Congress. Instead we got a second meaningless impeachment of Trump followed by endless committees, and just now they're cracking down on a few rank and file chucklefucks. I love it when people blame every democrat for not doing something when all it would take is some Republicans to do the right thing instead. The US Constitution gives Congress the ability to impeach federal officials and judges, but not its own members. They can only be removed by expulsion, which requires a 2/3 vote. Dems don't have the votes, and Republicans aren't going to find a conscience.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:22
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Fister Roboto posted:Like for gently caress's sake, Matt Gaetz is still a sitting congressman and he's been accused of sex trafficking. The Dems are just gonna yell and pound the table but not actually do anything about it. you're looking for that but with your theories?
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Nov 18, 2021 00:24
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Burning_Monk posted:I love it when people blame every democrat for not doing something when all it would take is some Republicans to do the right thing instead. The US Constitution gives Congress the ability to impeach federal officials and judges, but not its own members. They can only be removed by expulsion, which requires a 2/3 vote. Dems don't have the votes, and Republicans aren't going to find a conscience. I want a superman comic where Superman just never helps anyone and explains to them how he would fail if he tried because the evil guys are stronger so he's just not going to try.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:25
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Burning_Monk posted:I love it when people blame every democrat for not doing something when all it would take is some Republicans to do the right thing instead. The US Constitution gives Congress the ability to impeach federal officials and judges, but not its own members. They can only be removed by expulsion, which requires a 2/3 vote. Dems don't have the votes, and Republicans aren't going to find a conscience. The executive has inconceivable, invisible, and unaccountable means of coercion and should use them.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:I think what would happen is that they would gently caress up the codes and the military wouldn't launch anything. The football isn't a big red nuke button. It's instructions and a private communication setup so the president can call the military and provide codes and instructions on launching nukes which the military confirms and then launches. I guess the biggest risk is that someone strikes the US when we can't retaliate but that's an insanely stupid strategy and only exists in a world where you think North Korea and Russia are cartoon villains instead of nation states with their own goals and interests. This. The football exists to give a direct line to STRATCOM and allow the president to choose a specific strategy for a nuclear strike. It doesn't allow for an instant launch or anything like that. Indeed, there's good reason to doubt that, even if a president followed procedures to the letter, an order for a first strike would make it all the way down the chain of command anyway. One need only look at well-known "near miss" incidents like the Stanislav Petrov episode in 1983.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:30
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Gumball Gumption posted:I want a superman comic where Superman just never helps anyone and explains to them how he would fail if he tried because the evil guys are stronger so he's just not going to try. Yes, the US Congress is a superhero punching villians and not a deliberative body. Seems like you are giving Republicans a free pass so you can blame something on the Democrats. Wang Commander posted:The executive has inconceivable, invisible, and unaccountable means of coercion and should use them. Go on, what inconceivable means should the executive branch use... oh god, you are talking about nukes again, right? 
Burning_Monk fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 00:33
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das hipster posted:Not singling you out, but I will point out that the FBI disagrees with your assesment, for what it's worth.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:36
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Hell the fbi probably radicalized s lot of these people.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:37
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Burning_Monk posted:Yes, the US Congress is a superhero punching villians and not a deliberative body. Sorry, it's an Extended Universe comic where Superman got his powers by being elected on the promise of using them to stop things from happening and to do good things and then he explains how it's too hard so he can't try. It mirrors how we elect people and give them outsized power in our society and they then use that outsized power to explain how it's too hard to do the things they said they were going to do. Maybe Superman can call his enemy a fascist the entire election and then shake his hand and call him his good friend once he gets his super powers.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:38
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Gumball Gumption posted:I think what would happen is that they would gently caress up the codes and the military wouldn't launch anything. The football isn't a big red nuke button. It's instructions and a private communication setup so the president can call the military and provide codes and instructions on launching nukes which the military confirms and then launches. I guess the biggest risk is that someone strikes the US when we can't retaliate but that's an insanely stupid strategy and only exists in a world where you think North Korea and Russia are cartoon villains instead of nation states with their own goals and interests. How important the football actually is to the process beyond dumb theater is the fact the code on the suitcase was "0000" for many years. It's just dumb military propaganda to make the US seem like it's ready for retaliation at a moment's notice.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:38
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Burning_Monk posted:Go on, what inconceivable means should the executive branch use... oh god, you are talking about nukes again, right? The level of kompromat alone available to the man in charge of the NSA has to be staggering. The executive's ability to harass, surveil, etc. is essentially unlimited.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:40
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InsertPotPun posted:boebert was just on stage pounding the table and wondering why an elected representative can still be serving after marrying their brother, or sleeping with foreign agents. I'm sorry, are you trying to equate Gaetz's sex trafficking allegations with an insane right wing theory? Please elaborate.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:47
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tgacon posted:As someone who lives in between the highways, it almost looks to me like we're writing the I-10 corridor off to seal level rise. I was thinking the same thing.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:52
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Gumball Gumption posted:Sorry, it's an Extended Universe comic where Superman got his powers by being elected on the promise of using them to stop things from happening and to do good things and then he explains how it's too hard so he can't try. It mirrors how we elect people and give them outsized power in our society and they then use that outsized power to explain how it's too hard to do the things they said they were going to do. Maybe Superman can call his enemy a fascist the entire election and then shake his hand and call him his good friend once he gets his super powers. You'd just blame the democrats for calling a vote that failed anyway. Without Republican support it's literally impossible to expel a US Congressmember. But yes, keep trying to score points against Democrats while giving the Republicans who could actually do something about their own members a free pass. BTW, Cori Bush submitted a resolution to expel Jan 6 members. I am sure you are outraged that the Republican's haven't supported it or done a similar resolution.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:52
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Fister Roboto posted:This is where I stand on it. If it was actually an attempted coup (and I agree that it was), then the Dems should have acted swiftly to remove the instigators from Congress. Instead we got a second meaningless impeachment of Trump followed by endless committees, and just now they're cracking down on a few rank and file chucklefucks. You either believe in the law and the process and do the evidence gathering and allow the house or the fbi to do what they do or you don’t. The insurrectionists don’t; Democrats are in the position of either being the ones that do or admitting the state has fallen. It’s quite a thing to identify that one side wanted to sidestep the role that law plays in determining outcomes and then want the same thing from the other side. Ague Proof posted:The insurrectionists authorize nuclear strikes; Tim Gionet bakes Alaska. lol Fister Roboto posted:I'm sorry, are you trying to equate Gaetz's sex trafficking allegations with an insane right wing theory? Please elaborate. Do you really want to go down the road where democrats legitimize ousting members of congress based on theories, before they are charged and convicted? It's certainly a useful electoral tactic to bring up over and over and over and over again but honestly think about what you are suggesting here and what the implications might be. skylined! fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 00:55
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm sorry, are you trying to equate Gaetz's sex trafficking allegations with an insane right wing theory? Please elaborate. pretending that you have no idea what an analogy is, that two things can be analogous on their resemblance without being directly comparable in all aspects, is not a great tactic. "this fruit is sweet, like candy." "oh so now fruit are all sugar coated???"
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Nov 18, 2021 00:56
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Burning_Monk posted:You'd just blame the democrats for calling a vote that failed anyway. Without Republican support it's literally impossible to expel a US Congressmember. But yes, keep trying to score points against Democrats while giving the Republicans who could actually do something about their own members a free pass. I just hate the Republicans for what they do and I hate the Democrats for failing to meet their promises about fixing that the Republicans do. It's very simple to understand if you earnestly believe me when I say things instead of thinking I'm "scoring" points. There's no where to even track the points so how am I scoring?
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Nov 18, 2021 00:57
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Scipiotik posted:Hell the fbi probably radicalized s lot of these people. I feel like this line is used too much to justify the bad poo poo the right does.
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Nov 18, 2021 00:57
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If members of congress actually plotted a coup to overthrow the elected government of the United States they can be arrested and charged with crimes you don't need a loving  2/3 vote. If the House Whip were out robbing banks while congress was out of session we wouldn't have to go "ohhh well nothing we can do until after the holidays I hope he doesn't kill too many security guards before then!"Or for that matter the executive has wide latitude to stop imminent threats to national security as determined by deliberations on secret evidence entirely within the executive branch with no judicial oversight 
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Nov 18, 2021 01:01
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1/6 as far as anyone currently knows and will disclose was simply a meme that actually landed, unlike the area 51 thing. It was very uncoordinated because it was a pile of organizations with often contradictory goals ranging from running a coup to just making a statement of misguided support. Crowds can go completely mad and do very strange things. so people started marching toward the capitol on incitement and a few lead the mass in a surge. But once it got split up by the hallways and rooms inside the building the mob mentality collapsed and groups split off to do whatever. So while specific groups had individual plots they should be punished for in general crowds just do this kind of thing. Crowd control is very different to dealing with belligerent individuals. After all you only need a few crazy assholes to do something crazy, the crowd is basically just a shield. The real open criminality was the high level sabotage of the capitol police preparations.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:02
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Gumball Gumption posted:I just hate the Republicans for what they do and I hate the Democrats for failing to meet their promises about fixing that the Republicans do. It's very simple to understand if you earnestly believe me when I say things instead of thinking I'm "scoring" points. There's no where to even track the points so how am I scoring? Maybe I'd feel you were more ingenuous if you weren't suggesting the Democrats do something they literally have no power in doing, but even then they are trying, while never mentioning the other side that does have all the power to do it, but isn't.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:03
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FlamingLiberal posted:The FBI still has no idea who planted two pipe bombs in DC during the riots, so I don't think they need to be listened to on this Can you provide evidence that they're lying in this case? Who instructed them to and to what end? If they are lying, why are the sentences being handed out to the participants so lenient? It seem like if this were a coup, you want to send a stronger message to potential future coup participants. I have no issue with dismissing what the FBI says if you have any proof that they're lying in this case. I would assume that you'd provide that evidence, but since you haven't and simply dismissed what the article had to say, I'm not certain what sort of discussion you're looking for here.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:04
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Barrel Cactaur posted:1/6 as far as anyone currently knows and will disclose was simply a meme that actually landed, unlike the area 51 thing. Stop it. Stop repeating this bullshit. We have video of a senator, a representative, and the president telling a mob to go to the capital to stop the vote counting. Stop it. das hipster posted:Can you provide evidence that they're lying in this case? Who instructed them to and to what end? If they are lying, why are the sentences being handed out to the participants so lenient? It seem like if this were a coup, you want to send a stronger message to potential future coup participants. The FBI will charge what they can prove. Absence of evidence that the FBI/DOJ believes will get them a conviction or coerce a plea is not proof of no wrongdoing. Regardless, the people who committed provable crimes *are* being tried with the harshest charges and penalties, their cases are mostly ongoing, and the house is doing the real heavy lifting in investigating the people that instigated it. You might recall Steve Bannon was just arrested for defying their subpoena. 696 people have been charged as of yesterday and like 3 have gone through a complete trial. More than 100 have pleaded guilty already, foregoing trial, because if you are charged federally they *will* pressure you to plea. skylined! fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:05
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Hey mods, be honest - which of you is using this one as a troll account?Peter Daou Zen posted:There was no "insurrection". There was no vast "white supremacist" conspiracy to overthrow the US Government. Some bored people milled about the Senate chambers; others broke some windows. A man who wandered around in a weird costume and shouted with his friends shouldn't be facing decades in prison. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 18, 2021 01:06
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VitalSigns posted:Or for that matter the executive has wide latitude to stop imminent threats to national security as determined by deliberations on secret evidence entirely within the executive branch with no judicial oversight Yeah exactly this.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:07
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I mean I would first of all assume that you can't fire anything off with Pence's codes if Trump is not confirmed to be MIA/KIA/etc., second I don't have a lot of faith in the US military but like, I have to believe they'd double check before instigating a nuclear strike when we're not even at war with anyone and they can also turn on the TV and see "Something is going down in DC and things may be compromised, but also no foreign powers are moving on us"
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Nov 18, 2021 01:08
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Lol, we've gone from "All Republicans aren't nazis, stop being so absurd," to "CRT Conspiracy theories have some legitimate concerns and the people against it are just IDpol Culture Warriors," to "The left should integrate Anti-CRT talking points instead of opposing the people voting to burn books for having LGBTQ characters," to "January 6 was just a few scamps embarrassing the stupid dumb-o-crats," in less than three weeks on this forum. What the gently caress happened?
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Nov 18, 2021 01:08
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Sanguinia posted:Lol, we've gone from "All Republicans aren't nazis, stop being so absurd," to "CRT Conspiracy theories have some legitimate concerns and the people against it are just IDpol Culture Warriors," to "The left should integrate Anti-CRT talking points instead of opposing the people voting to burn books for having LGBTQ characters," to "January 6 was just a few scamps embarrassing the stupid dumb-o-crats," in less than three weeks on this forum. What the gently caress happened? There's a group of people that hate the libs so much they consume a large amount of right wing media to find new ways to attack them, this affects a person.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:10
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Burning_Monk posted:Maybe I'd feel you were more ingenuous if you weren't suggesting the Democrats do something they literally have no power in doing, but even then they are trying, while never mentioning the other side that does have all the power to do it, but isn't. I criticize the people who say they're going to help and don't. It's not very productive or effective to criticize the people who say eat poo poo and die. The first group feels more persuadable. The second feels a lot like the weather, we all know it, it's boring to talk about, and I'm not going to change it. People are elected so that they can be given outsized authority and power within our society to commit change, I have high standards for that and they're higher for the people I voted for.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:11
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skylined! posted:You either believe in the law and the process and do the evidence gathering and allow the house or the fbi to do what they do or you don’t. The insurrection jays don’t; Democrats are in the position of either being the ones that do or admitting the state has fallen.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:12
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