US Current Events November: D&D's Afghanistan

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VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

If riling up an angry mob, pointing them in a direction, and telling them who to look for when they get there, all openly and on camera, isnt illegal or against the rules, then hey great news looks like Biden has another tool in old toolbox he could be using to get congress in line.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 11:26

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# ? May 28, 2024 22:59

-Blackadder-: Jan 2, 2007; Game....Blouses.

Well here's some news...

The Good news: We probably don't have to worry about the Republicans doing another Jan 6.
The Bad news: Because they're just going to rig the elections ahead of time.
The Worse news: Oh and they may have effectively already retaken the House just through gerrymandering.

https://twitter.com/mattshuham/status/1459253892575809543
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1460361384181616651

quote:

Republicans Gain Heavy House Edge in 2022 as Gerrymandered Maps Emerge

On a highly distorted congressional map that is still taking shape, the party has added enough safe House districts to capture control of the chamber based on its redistricting edge alone.

By Reid J. Epstein and Nick Corasaniti

Published Nov. 15, 2021
Updated Nov. 17, 2021

WASHINGTON � A year before the polls open in the 2022 midterm elections, Republicans are already poised to flip at least five seats in the closely divided House thanks to redrawn district maps that are more distorted, more disjointed and more gerrymandered than any since the Voting Rights Act was passed in 1965.

The rapidly forming congressional map, a quarter of which has taken shape as districts are redrawn this year, represents an even more extreme warping of American political architecture, with state legislators in many places moving aggressively to cement their partisan dominance.

The flood of gerrymandering, carried out by both parties but predominantly by Republicans, is likely to leave the country ever more divided by further eroding competitive elections and making representatives more beholden to their party�s base.

At the same time, Republicans� upper hand in the redistricting process, combined with plunging approval ratings for President Biden and the Democratic Party, provides the party with what could be a nearly insurmountable advantage in the 2022 midterm elections and the next decade of House races.

�The floor for Republicans has been raised,� Representative Tom Emmer of Minnesota, the chairman of House Republicans� campaign committee, said in an interview. �Our incumbents actually are getting stronger districts.�

Congressional maps serve, perhaps more than ever before, as a predictor of which party will control the House of Representatives, where Democrats now hold 221 seats to Republicans� 213. In the 12 states that have completed the mapping process, Republicans have gained an advantage for seats in Iowa, North Carolina, Texas and Montana, and Democrats have lost the advantage in districts in North Carolina and Iowa.

All told, Republicans have added a net of five seats that the party can expect to hold while Democrats are down one. Republicans need to flip just five Democratic-held seats next year to seize a House majority.

�They�re really taking a whack at competition,� said Michael Li, a redistricting expert at the Brennan Center for Justice. �The path back to a majority for Democrats if they lose in 2022 has to run through states like Texas, and they�re just taking that off the table.�

Competition in House races has decreased for years. In 2020, The New York Times considered just 61 of the 435 House elections to be �battleground� contests. The trend is starkest in places like Texas, where 14 congressional districts in 2020 had a presidential vote that was separated by 10 percentage points or less. With the state�s new maps, only three are projected to be decided by a similar margin.

Redistricting, which happens every 10 years, began late this summer after states received the much-delayed results of the 2020 census. The process will continue, state by state, through the winter and spring and is to be completed before the primary contests for next year�s midterm elections.

In most states, the map drawing is controlled by state legislators, who often resort to far-reaching gerrymanders. Republicans have control over the redistricting process in states that represent 187 congressional seats, compared with just 75 for Democrats. The rest are to be drawn by outside panels or are in states where the two parties must agree on maps or have them decided by the courts.

Gerrymandering is carried out in many ways, but the two most common forms are �cracking� and �packing.� Cracking is when mapmakers spread a cluster of a certain type of voters � for example, those affiliated with the opposing party � among several districts to dilute their vote. Packing is when members of a demographic group, like Black voters, or voters in the opposing political party, are crammed into as few districts as possible.

The Republican gains this year build on what was already a significant cartographic advantage. The existing maps were heavily gerrymandered by statehouse Republicans after the G.O.P.�s wave election in 2010, in a rapid escalation of the congressional map-drawing wars. This year, both parties are starting from a highly contorted map amid a zero-sum political environment. With advancements in both voter data and software, they have been able to take a more surgical approach to the process.

Republicans are cautious about doing a premature victory lap in case the country�s political mood shifts again over the next year. Democrats believe that while keeping their House majority will be an uphill battle, they have a stronger chance of maintaining control in the Senate, where Vice President Kamala Harris currently breaks a 50-50 tie.

Republicans also argue that there could in fact be many newly competitive House districts if Mr. Biden�s approval ratings remain in the doldrums and voters replicate the G.O.P.�s successes in elections this month.

Democrats, without much to brag about, accuse Republicans of being afraid of competitive elections.

�Fear is driving all of this,� David Pepper, a former Ohio Democratic Party chairman, said on Wednesday at a hearing to discuss a proposed map that would give Republicans 13 of the state�s 15 congressional seats. �Fear of what would happen if we actually had a real democracy.�

More districts are certain to shift from Democratic to Republican in the coming weeks. Republican lawmakers in Georgia and Florida will soon begin debating new maps.

Several other states have completed maps for the 2020s that entrench existing Republican advantages. Republicans in Alabama and Indiana shored up G.O.P.-held congressional districts while packing their state�s pockets of Democrats into uncompetitive enclaves. In Utah, a new map eliminates a competitive district in Salt Lake City that Democrats won in 2018. Republicans have made an Oklahoma City seat much safer, while Colorado�s independent redistricting commission shored up the district of Representative Lauren Boebert, a Republican and Trump ally, so much that her leading Democratic opponent, who had raised $1.9 million, dropped out of the contest to defeat her.

And in Texas, Gov. Greg Abbott signed into law a map that protects the state�s 23 Republican incumbents while adding two safely red seats, a year after the party spent $22 million to protect vulnerable House members.

�The competitive Republican seats are off the board,� said Adam Kincaid, the executive director of the National Republican Redistricting Trust, the party�s clearinghouse for designing new maps.

In one of the few states where Democrats are on offense, Illinois will eliminate two Republican seats from its delegation and add one Democratic one when Gov. J.B. Pritzker signs the map that the state�s Democratic-controlled Legislature approved last month. New York is likely to add seats to the Democratic column once the party�s lawmakers complete maps next year, and Maryland Democrats may draw their state�s lone Republican congressman out of a district.

Democrats in Nebraska also managed to preserve a competitive district that includes Omaha after initial Republican proposals sought to split the city in two.

Calling the Republican moves an �unprecedented power grab,� Kelly Burton, the president of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, said that the G.O.P. was �not successfully taking over the battleground� but instead �proactively and intentionally trying to remove competitive seats.�

Several other states where Republicans drew advantageous districts for themselves a decade ago will now have outside commissions or courts determining their maps.

Wisconsin Republicans on Thursday passed a congressional map that would shift a Democratic seat to certain Republican control, though Gov. Tony Evers, a Democrat, promised to veto it. Michigan and Virginia, which had gerrymandered districts, have adopted outside commissions to draw new lines. Pennsylvania has a Democratic governor certain to veto Republican maps.

And it�s not clear what California�s independent commission will do when it completes the state�s process later this year.

Representative Sean Patrick Maloney of New York, the chairman of House Democrats� campaign arm, said the party still had a path to hold its majority.

�We�ve got a battlefield that we can win on; I think we are very much in the fight,� he said in an interview. �No one is declaring victory just yet.�

Still, Republicans have far more opportunities to press their advantage. G.O.P. lawmakers in New Hampshire proposed changing a congressional map largely unaltered since the 1800s to create a Republican seat. In Georgia, Republicans are set to place Representatives Lucy McBath and Carolyn Bourdeaux, Democrats who hold seats in Atlanta�s booming northern suburbs, into a single Democratic district while forming a new Republican seat.

Officials in both parties are preparing for years of legal fights over the maps, with the potential for courts to order the redrawing of maps well into the decade. Lawsuits have already been filed over maps in Oregon, Alabama, North Carolina and Texas.

But the legal landscape has shifted since the last redistricting cycle: The Supreme Court ruled in 2019 that federal courts were not the venue to bring lawsuits regarding partisan gerrymandering. (Lawsuits claiming racial gerrymandering under the Voting Rights Act are still an option.)

�This is always in every decade a very accelerated process in the courts, but it is even more so this year because of the four months that were lost because of the delayed release,� said Thomas A. Saenz, the president of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, a group involved in multiple redistricting lawsuits. �The question is, will the courts run out of time and allow even maps that are legally flawed to be used for one election cycle in 2022?�

Among the states with completed maps, nowhere more than North Carolina represents the vigorous Republican effort to tilt the scales of redistricting in the party�s favor.

Republicans who control the Legislature in North Carolina, the only state forced by courts to completely redraw its congressional maps twice since 2011 for obvious partisan gerrymandering, this month approved highly gerrymandered districts that essentially revert the state to a map similar to the ones thrown out by the courts.

The map Republicans passed gives the G.O.P. an advantage in 10 of the state�s 14 congressional districts, despite a near 50-50 split in the statewide popular vote for president in 2020. Former President Donald J. Trump carried the state by 1.3 percentage points. (The current congressional breakdown is eight Republicans and five Democrats, the result of a court-ordered redrawing of the map for the 2020 election.)

The map packs Democrats into three heavily blue districts around Raleigh, Durham and Charlotte, as well as one competitive district in the northeast with a significant Black voting population that would put a Black congressman, G.K. Butterfield, in danger of losing his seat.

Republicans in the state argued that their redistricting process had been �race blind� because they drew maps without looking at demographic data. But the result, critics say, was even worse.

�To pretend to be race-neutral and then draw these districts that are so harmful to Black voters flies in the face of why we even have federal law,� said Allison Riggs, an executive director of the Southern Coalition for Social Justice, which is suing the state. �The process is so broken.�

-Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Nov 18, 2021

# ? Nov 18, 2021 11:38

Smeef: Aug 15, 2003; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!; Pillbug

VitalSigns posted:

If riling up an angry mob, pointing them in a direction, and telling them who to look for when they get there, all openly and on camera, isnt illegal or against the rules, then hey great news looks like Biden has another tool in old toolbox he could be using to get congress in line.

I'll admit that the image of Biden riling up an angry mob is amusing, though I can only imagine it in some comedy form where he points off in a direction and the mob rushes him instead, or after his rousing speech the mob just kinda shrugs and disbands.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 11:41

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

The conclusion I've come to is that the Democratic Party's primary goal isn't to take or hold power or transform the country or even fix anything really it's: don't upset the applecart.

They're mad about 1/6 because a mob hooting and hollering through the heart of empire and exposing the crumbling rot within for all to see threatened to upset the applecart, but not only are they not going to punish the ringleaders, they're going to keep going to boat parties with them after work and reassure us they're good and we need a strong republican party and give them veto power over all investigations because: don't upset the applecart

The Republicans are stealing the House right now with gerrymanders that will give them control without changing a single vote, and also openly telling everyone how they are putting the formal processes in place to steal the next presidential election properly with legislators and lawyers like in 2000 and not amateurishly with hooligans at the last second, and Democrats finally have the power to pass laws to prevent this after 11 years of being gerrymandered out of power, but they don't want to because they'd have to get rid of the filibuster which provides a valuable check against their own party becoming too progressive: don't upset the applecart

Same thing since 2000 when American democracy really died when some rich people rioted to stop vote counting to give their lackeys on the court time to step in and pick the loser and the rightful winner decided it was better to give in and preserve the illusion of democracy than fight to recognize the actual democratically elected government. And now two of the coup plotters sit on the high court ready to pick a winner when opportunity knocks. But hey: don't upset the applecart

# ? Nov 18, 2021 12:04

Dang It Bhabhi!: May 27, 2004; ASK ME ABOUT
BEING
ESCULA GRIND'S
#1 SIMP

VitalSigns posted:

They're mad about 1/6 because a mob hooting and hollering through the heart of empire and exposing the crumbling rot within for all to see

# ? Nov 18, 2021 12:28

Srice: Sep 11, 2011

Considering how the only tangible dem response to 1/6 was to give more money to police, I think I am cool with them not doing anything more 'lest they find reasons to do other lovely things.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 12:50

Dang It Bhabhi!: May 27, 2004; ASK ME ABOUT
BEING
ESCULA GRIND'S
#1 SIMP

sure am glad that the mob on 1/6 exposed the rot within for all to see! how else would we have known?

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:23

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Srice posted:

Considering how the only tangible dem response to 1/6 was to give more money to police, I think I am cool with them not doing anything more 'lest they find reasons to do other lovely things.

Don't forget expanding the capitol police to Florida!

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:25

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Dang It Bhabhi! posted:

sure am glad that the mob on 1/6 exposed the rot within for all to see! how else would we have known?

Lol are you kidding around or do you really think that was an endorsement

"The 9/11 attacks exposed the all too serious consequences of trading off safe design practices for more profit, as the redundant staircases cut from the original design to create more rentable floor space would have saved the lives of the people above the impact who were trapped when the only staircase was severed"
"Oh wow so we should give Bin Laden a medal for solving that debate then? :downs:

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:34

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

Those people making it into our seat of government with only a token amount of resistance was a big deal, actually

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:37

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Fallom posted:

Those people making it into our seat of government with only a token amount of resistance was a big deal, actually

Yeah, you just don't get content that entertaining for free anymore. Absolutely one of the best deals in broadcast entertainment, maybe ever! I hear the next season of Always Sunny is gonna make a joke about it too!

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:41

Srice: Sep 11, 2011

Lib and let die posted:

Don't forget expanding the capitol police to Florida!

I did in fact forget that, whoops! Thanks for the reminder.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:42

Parakeet vs. Phone: Nov 6, 2009

Fallom posted:

Those people making it into our seat of government with only a token amount of resistance was a big deal, actually

I mean...was it really? The place isn't a fortress. A bunch of people kind of pushing their way in to shout for a bit isn't shocking. The only thing it really exposed was that most of the cops would be on the right wing's side if it ever came down to it. Good thing we just kind of papered over that and called them all heroes and gave them a shitload of more money without accountability. As soon as the cops were embarrassed/cracked down on they went out and did the usual thing and pushed everybody out without much resistance.

What did it really do?

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:47

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

Parakeet vs. Phone posted:

I mean...was it really? The place isn't a fortress. A bunch of people kind of pushing their way in to shout for a bit isn't shocking. The only thing it really exposed was that most of the cops would be on the right wing's side if it ever came down to it. Good thing we just kind of papered over that and called them all heroes and gave them a shitload of more money without accountability. As soon as the cops were embarrassed/cracked down on they went out and did the usual thing and pushed everybody out without much resistance.

What did it really do?

There were armed fash going from office to office looking for reps. Well, let's be honest, looking to rape AOC

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:48

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Failed Imagineer posted:

There were armed fash going from office to office looking for reps. Well, let's be honest, looking to rape AOC

Who was in another building. Are we supposed to believe this was a strategically coordinated coup or not? I feel like I'm losing the thread again, facts change to fit the narrative so fast!

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:51

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

Lib and let die posted:

Who was in another building. Are we supposed to believe this was a strategically coordinated coup or not? I feel like I'm losing the thread again, facts change to fit the narrative so fast!

Are they mutually-exclusive ideas to you? Conspiracies can occur in the absence of perfect omniscience

# ? Nov 18, 2021 13:59

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Failed Imagineer posted:

Are they mutually-exclusive ideas to you? Conspiracies can occur in the absence of perfect omniscience

If their goal was to rape AOC, one would presume they would have some notion of where AOC might be. I read The Tao of Pooh when I was a kid, too, but if you're planning a rapacious coup you probably don't just stumble around waiting for the target of your ire to show up because things always show up when you stop looking for them, or some nonsense.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:03

Sarcastr0: May 29, 2013; WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE BILLIONAIRES ?!?!?

Lib and let die posted:

If their goal was to rape AOC, one would presume they would have some notion of where AOC might be. I read The Tao of Pooh when I was a kid, too, but if you're planning a rapacious coup you probably don't just stumble around waiting for the target of your ire to show up because things always show up when you stop looking for them, or some nonsense.

You are appealing to the rationality and planning ability of chuds?

A stupid and doomed violent insurrection is still a violent insurrection.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:08

skylined!: Apr 6, 2012; THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

Lib and let die posted:

If their goal was to rape AOC, one would presume they would have some notion of where AOC might be. I read The Tao of Pooh when I was a kid, too, but if you're planning a rapacious coup you probably don't just stumble around waiting for the target of your ire to show up because things always show up when you stop looking for them, or some nonsense.

It really is something that this dumb bullshit continues to be bandied around the thread by people who stopped paying attention to what happened on Jan 6th a day later. Just breathlessly excited to repeat fascist propaganda as long as it is in service of owning the libs. From tucker carlson's mouth to your keyboard without hindrance.

The tragedy here is of course that there are infinite amount of real criticisms to be lobbed at democrats worthy of discussion, but you're too lazy or incompetent to take the time. You could expand on your allusion to the expansion of police forces, for instance; but no, just low-effort useless shitposting that soothes your id.

skylined! fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Nov 18, 2021

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:14

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

skylined! posted:

It really is something that this dumb bullshit continues to be bandied around the thread by people who stopped paying attention to what happened on Jan 6th a day later. Just breathlessly excited to repeat fascist propaganda as long as it is in service of owning the libs. From tucker carlson's mouth to your keyboard without hindrance.

The tragedy here is of course that there are infinite amount of real criticisms to be lobbed at democrats worthy of discussion, but you're too lazy or incompetent to take the time. You could expand on your allusion to the expansion of police forces, for instance; but no, just low-effort useless shitposting that soothes your id.

Sounds like you watch/read a lot more Tucker than I do. Maybe you should curb how much fascist propaganda you ingest.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:30

TheDisreputableDog: Oct 13, 2005

skylined! posted:

It really is something that this dumb bullshit continues to be bandied around the thread by people who stopped paying attention to what happened on Jan 6th a day later. Just breathlessly excited to repeat fascist propaganda as long as it is in service of owning the libs. From tucker carlson's mouth to your keyboard without hindrance.

What you linked and what Lib and let die posted are completely different, though? Maybe the brain-to-keyboard filter needs attention elsewhere.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:34

skylined!: Apr 6, 2012; THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

TheDisreputableDog posted:

What you linked and what Lib and let die posted are completely different, though? Maybe the brain-to-keyboard filter needs attention elsewhere.

It is literally the same argument.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:37

On Terra Firma: Feb 12, 2008

Maybe it's self evident but the scary part of Jan 6th to me was that conservatives and independents don't seem to be taking it seriously either. By that I mean actual voters. Maybe Dems need to bang that drum more but it kind of freaks me out that there are so many people in this country that are willing to completely forget what happened and vote that party into power again in such a short time because gas prices went up. This is the same reason Trump was the second thing in line that bothered me when he was elected. The first thing were the people who thought giving him power was a good idea in the first place.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:39

Peter Daou Zen: Apr 6, 2021; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Majorian posted:

People posting on a dead online comedy forum aren't the ones failing to rake the Republicans over the coals for aiding and abetting the Jan 6 riot when they have the ability and a megaphone large enough to do so. That would be the leadership and most of the elected officials of the Democratic Party. You do not need to keep defending the people in power who have continually and consistently failed to protect you and the people you care about.

e: really the only person I can see ITT actually minimizing Jan 6 is Peter Daou Zen, and you can probably ignore them. Most of CSPAM already does. Everyone else here is simply flummoxed at how eager the Dems are to treat the party that directly stoked, aided, and abetted the violence with the softest of kid gloves.

Hmmm Majorian this is D&D ; I�d argue the majority of Cspam agrees with my sentiment that 1/6 was not a coup. This isn�t the time or the place for that little zinger anyways.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:41

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

If you want to understand Democrats' attitude to 1/6 just look at how they handled Paul Gosar.

Trying to get fellow members of congress and maybe the Vice President raped or murdered for real in an insurrection that we're told was minutes away from seizing the magic ballot arks and overthrowing democracy? See you at the committee meeting on Monday my friend, no need for consequences because that might sow doubt about hallowed institutions like the FBI and the Republican Party! Can't upset the applecart now.

Make an anime of you killing MoC's for fake? That's just not done, you lack :decorum:

, now you can't be on our committee! But we will not hold a vote to expel you for threatening to murder another congressman because we wouldn't want to accidentally reveal that the Republican party fully supports you and you aren't just a singular bad apple. Stick to trying to murder us in less public ways we don't have to acknowledge from now on!

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:42

The Sean: Apr 17, 2005; Am I handsome now?

Parakeet vs. Phone posted:

I mean...was it really? The place isn't a fortress. A bunch of people kind of pushing their way in to shout for a bit isn't shocking. The only thing it really exposed was that most of the cops would be on the right wing's side if it ever came down to it. Good thing we just kind of papered over that and called them all heroes and gave them a shitload of more money without accountability. As soon as the cops were embarrassed/cracked down on they went out and did the usual thing and pushed everybody out without much resistance.

What did it really do?

Yeah, you're right. Coups aren't a big deal.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:43

Srice: Sep 11, 2011

On Terra Firma posted:

Maybe it's self evident but the scary part of Jan 6th to me was that conservatives and independents don't seem to be taking it seriously either. By that I mean actual voters. Maybe Dems need to bang that drum more but it kind of freaks me out that there are so many people in this country that are willing to completely forget what happened and vote that party into power again in such a short time because gas prices went up. This is the same reason Trump was the second thing in line that bothered me when he was elected. The first thing were the people who thought giving him power was a good idea in the first place.

If elected dems aren't taking it that seriously then it's no surprise that the only voters taking it seriously are people who were gonna vote blue anyways. To say nothing of how there's a plethora of more concerning problems out there for the average voter to deal with/care about.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:44

skylined!: Apr 6, 2012; THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

On Terra Firma posted:

Maybe it's self evident but the scary part of Jan 6th to me was that conservatives and independents don't seem to be taking it seriously either. By that I mean actual voters. Maybe Dems need to bang that drum more but it kind of freaks me out that there are so many people in this country that are willing to completely forget what happened and vote that party into power again in such a short time because gas prices went up. This is the same reason Trump was the second thing in line that bothered me when he was elected. The first thing were the people who thought giving him power was a good idea in the first place.

I think context of the pandemic is important, but you certainly aren't alone. There has been a lot of turmoil to respond to and keep track of in the last 2 years. Most people do actually want justice for what happened, but most people also have to go to work and pay rent or a mortgage and buy food.

Screwing around in the Spring and not convening the house select committee investigating Jan 6 until July was a huge mistake that democratic leadership absolutely owns, and it likely contributed to the dropoff in seeing the investigation and prosecution of participants as important.

A cynical analysis might assume that the larger findings (that might indicate politician involvement) around Jan 6 by the committee will come to light in the middle of the 2022 campaign season and dominate headlines, refreshing in the public psyche just what happened. But yea, it is easier to redirect people's focus on material needs when those needs aren't being consistently met. Democrats could alleviate some of that by ensuring that the most important parts of BBB stay in the bill, and pass it like tomorrow, but their (as has been beaten to death) their very slim majorities are constraining the process.

Srice posted:

If elected dems aren't taking it that seriously then it's no surprise that the only voters taking it seriously are people who were gonna vote blue anyways. To say nothing of how there's a plethora of more concerning problems out there for the average voter to deal with/care about.

There *are* elected democrats still beating the drum to expel republicans implicated in the Jan 6 attack. Steve Bannon as just arrested for defying a subpoena. The next test will be to see if there are consequences for Mark Meadows for doing the same; the Jan 6 commission should refer his ignoring of a subpoena for contempt as well.

skylined! fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Nov 18, 2021

# ? Nov 18, 2021 14:59

Sarcastr0: May 29, 2013; WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE BILLIONAIRES ?!?!?

VitalSigns posted:

If you want to understand Democrats' attitude to 1/6 just look at how they handled Paul Gosar.

Trying to get fellow members of congress and maybe the Vice President raped or murdered for real in an insurrection that we're told was minutes away from seizing the magic ballot arks and overthrowing democracy? See you at the committee meeting on Monday my friend, no need for consequences because that might sow doubt about hallowed institutions like the FBI and the Republican Party! Can't upset the applecart now.

Make an anime of you killing MoC's for fake? That's just not done, you lack , now you can't be on our committee! But we will not hold a vote to expel you for threatening to murder another congressman because we wouldn't want to accidentally reveal that the Republican party fully supports you and you aren't just a singular bad apple. Stick to trying to murder us in less public ways we don't have to acknowledge from now on!

So unless the Dems had kicked the 80% of the GOP off of their committees, they are lying that Jan 06 was a big deal?

There may have been some practical and political issues with your plan here.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:08

Peter Daou Zen: Apr 6, 2021; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

If 1/6 was a Coup, then why are there any excuses, at all, for anybody involved to be still wandering the streets? What would any other country on earth do for people who were involved in attempting to overthrow the government? If my own government says it's nothing, the media ignores it, people want to move on and don't care. . .Then..What was it?

It's simple.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:11

skylined!: Apr 6, 2012; THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

Peter Daou Zen posted:

If 1/6 was a Coup, then why are there any excuses, at all, for anybody involved to be still wandering the streets? What would any other country on earth do for people who were involved in attempting to overthrow the government? If my own government says it's nothing, the media ignores it, people want to move on and don't care. . .Then..What was it?

It's simple.

Almost 700 people have been charged and are awaiting trial for their involvement, with more people being charged almost daily as the FBI tracks them down. There is a house select committee investigating the politicians and people involved at a high level. One of those people being investigated was just arrested for defying a subpoena. 'The media' has been consistently reporting on both of these things; I've posted links the last few pages.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:15

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

I'd love it if there was a bunch more investigation into 1/6. Specifically helmet boy , who is in a bunch of videos where he : shows up from behind police lines, works his way to the front of the crowd next to Babbitt, smashes on a window with a helmet, then stops seconds before the shot and talks to a cop. He's then allowed to pass through police lines and rummage through his backpack for a while behind them.

He has an arrest record, so I wonder if he was known to some police there and working for them as an informant or what.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:16

BRJurgis: Aug 15, 2007; Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

The idea of becoming an accelerations terrifies me. That said, I was very conflicted on the 6th. Americans are willing to sacrifice their comfort and freedom to threaten the powers that be? That what we loving need!

Oh but they're a bunch of YouTube clowns and fascist tacti-lol types doing it for Trump. This is where we are?

Anyway yes, stoking your base by hammering the most recognizable nobodies while doing ~~nothing~~ not enough about the people with power who truly planned and facilitated this event makes it hard to see this as anything but more theater. Not the 6th, but the reaction.

Personal anecdote, my mom (who is the manifestation of depression and is completely ruined by reading political news) went 100% fury on punitive punishing action against antivaccers. She was completely horrified when I expressed that given our socio economic political w/e reality, the problem was the absolute fucks with power and a platform who spread this narrative, and we should focus on punishing them instead. "But those people are bad and I hate them so much though!" Is this bullshit working as intended if you ask me. Similar idea here.

I don't want yall to start hugging chuds (they have covid) but our enemies are those with power who don't exercise it to do the right thing, or (all too commonly) use it to do the wrong thing. Business as usual means a readily available supply of angry low information people ready to be whipped into a frenzy against the Dems or government at large, by whoever. Never at the republicans though! Our system keeps producing these people. Focus our anger on those who have power, that we might make the masses OUR power.

BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Nov 18, 2021

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:18

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Sarcastr0 posted:

So unless the Dems had kicked the 80% of the GOP off of their committees, they are lying that Jan 06 was a big deal?

There may have been some practical and political issues with your plan here.

That or they're telling the truth that it was a big deal and they just don't care, or don't care as much about it as they do about preserving the appearances that everything is fine and our institutions are working as intended.

I mean do you hear yourself. The Republicans are an existential threat to democracy and the rule of law, masterminding political violence in the halls of congress, but there's no reason we can't all be friends and write legislation together.

You're pretty much proving my point here. Your ideology is incapable of grappling with institutional problems. If a single Republican is rude on the internet kick him off the committee because we can deal with one bad apple, but if multiple Republicans try to kill their Democratic counterparts well we can't very well run a committee without the guys who want to murder us or people might think bipartisanship has failed.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:19

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Sarcastr0 posted:

You are appealing to the rationality and planning ability of chuds?

A stupid and doomed violent insurrection is still a violent insurrection.

Not really much of an insurrection, unless you think the US government is run like a King of the Hill game and if the chuds can just hold the Senate floor long enough they become the new Senate. It wasnt even particularly violent. Jan 6th isn't even in the top 10 deadliest events in America *this year*.

Also nobody in charge seems to really care about 1/6 or consider it a priority, so really it just looks like its been hyped by the media to rile up the stupid and gullible.

-Blackadder- posted:

Well here's some news...

The Good news: We probably don't have to worry about the Republicans doing another Jan 6.
The Bad news: Because they're just going to rig the elections ahead of time.
The Worse news: Oh and they may have effectively already retaken the House just through gerrymandering.

https://twitter.com/mattshuham/status/1459253892575809543
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1460361384181616651

Now, see, *this* is a take over of government. Although, again, it doesn't seem like anybody in charge really cares.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:22

The Sean: Apr 17, 2005; Am I handsome now?

Peter Daou Zen posted:

If 1/6 was a Coup, then why are there any excuses, at all, for anybody involved to be still wandering the streets? What would any other country on earth do for people who were involved in attempting to overthrow the government? If my own government says it's nothing, the media ignores it, people want to move on and don't care. . .Then..What was it?

It's simple.

None of what you pointed out has anything to do with the definition of an attempted coup.

It's simple.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:24

On Terra Firma: Feb 12, 2008

skylined! posted:

I think context of the pandemic is important, but you certainly aren't alone. There has been a lot of turmoil to respond to and keep track of in the last 2 years. Most people do actually want justice for what happened, but most people also have to go to work and pay rent or a mortgage and buy food.

I don't really think that's true though but I don't have a good gauge on how most people in the country feel about the 1/6. I just see Maddow worshiping liberals on twitter/Facebook clamor on about it the same way they did over Russia. If voters aren't going to punish the GOP for their involvement either indirectly or directly through Trump then what's the motivation to do anything about it? It's more than a little frustrating and it bothers me that there's no real way to fix that. Maybe the sentiment of it not being a coup and it not really mattering is just resignation in the face of the evidence that the average voter doesn't think it was all that serious anyway. poo poo some of the people who were at the capital were elected to office at a local level.

It's all scary and weird but voters just don't give a poo poo which again sets off more alarms for me than anything else. Then again maybe they'll be persuaded by another means tested tax credit that doesn't take effect until 2030 and a rebate for a 60k electric vehicle they'll never buy that'll set them straight.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:27

skylined!: Apr 6, 2012; THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

BRJohnson posted:

The idea of becoming an accelerations terrifies me. That said, I was very conflicted on the 6th. Americans are willing to sacrifice their comfort and freedom to threaten the powers that be? That what we loving need!

Most of them didn't believe they were sacrificing anything.

quote:

Anyway yes, stoking your base by hammering the most recognizable nobodies while doing nothing about the people with power who truly planned and facilitated this event makes it hard to see this as anything but more theater. Not the 6th, but the reaction.

Do... do yall just completely ignore the many, many references to the house select committee, subpoenas issued, and arrest of Steve Bannon? Is it on purpose? They have a website you can keep up to date on the goings-on without having to go to CNN or whatever.

mastershakeman posted:

I'd love it if there was a bunch more investigation into 1/6. Specifically helmet boy , who is in a bunch of videos where he : shows up from behind police lines, works his way to the front of the crowd next to Babbitt, smashes on a window with a helmet, then stops seconds before the shot and talks to a cop. He's then allowed to pass through police lines and rummage through his backpack for a while behind them.

He has an arrest record, so I wonder if he was known to some police there and working for them as an informant or what.

He is Zacharay Alam and was charged in February.

Here is a list of charges and his court status. He is in jail according to the DOJ.

On Terra Firma posted:

I don't really think that's true though but I don't have a good gauge on how most people in the country feel about the 1/6.

See the Pew poll I just posted - 78% of the country in September felt that investigating and prosecuting people involved in 1/6 attack was still important (though declining). 56% believed it strongly.

VitalSigns posted:

Your ideology is incapable of grappling with institutional problems. If a single Republican is rude on the internet kick him off the committee because we can deal with one bad apple, but if multiple Republicans try to kill their Democratic counterparts well we can't very well run a committee without the guys who want to murder us or people might think bipartisanship has failed.

It sure would change things if we lived a country where representatives weren't backed by voters; where 73 million people didn't just vote republicans into house seats and democrats could do stuff without having to consider them at all.

skylined! fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Nov 18, 2021

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:28

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Ghost Leviathan posted:

It really is this. The Dems genuinely cannot acknowledge or react to the reality that this was an attempted coup against them, using lethal force and willing to specifically execute Democratic politicians and Republicans seen as insufficiently fanatical. In their worldview, this kind of thing doesn't happen, and therefore it must not have happened, and the rioters and insurrectionists are just overexcited children who need to sit down- while of course, BLM protestors are dangerous fanatics who need to be put down and Defund the Police is losing them elections.

So much makes sense when you realise the establishment people literally cannot process the reality in front of them. You can see it happen in real time, you see it in this very thread, just full on 'It doesn't look like anything to me'.

Yeah, it's a more prominent version of people denying that their Trump-voting acquaintances, relatives and friends are human trash that they should cut ties with. I'm sure many of these Democratic lawmakers know many Republicans very deeply as colleagues and even friends thanks to the gerontocracy the government is. Them? Couping? Noo...they're nice to me!

Americans are simply unwilling to call a fascist fascist and treat them as such with even the slightest relationship to them, so I'm personally not expecting much of a change from most Democrats or most Americans. Even the left is at best calling for an expulsion from Congress for a half a dozen individuals. :decorum:

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:33

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# ? May 28, 2024 22:59

Heck Yes! Loam!: Nov 15, 2004; a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.

skylined! posted:

Most of them didn't believe they were sacrificing anything.

Do... do yall just completely ignore the many, many references to the house select committee, subpoenas issued, and arrest of Steve Bannon? Is it on purpose? They have a website you can keep up to date on the goings-on without having to go to CNN or whatever.

He is Zacharay Alam and was charged in February.

Here is a list of charges and his court status. He is in jail according to the DOJ.

Ahh yes but did you consider that learning that something is actually being done undermines my argument that the Democrats aren't doing anything even if some consider it an anemic response to a bigger threat or just a bunch of regular folks on a tour that went bad because of the Democrats. In reality, the only people with agency are the Democrats and ultimately this is completely their fault.

# ? Nov 18, 2021 15:34

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US Current Events November: D&D's Afghanistan

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