|
The thing about 1/6 is that president Trump held a big speech and directed a fired up crowd to the capital in hopes they would smash and burn things and start a coup. Sitting congress members support the actions of the president and helped make the “coup” possible. There was dark money funding the “coup” by bussing in / flying out / arranging accommodations for the rubes that would carry it out. The capital police chief did not focus on efforts to protect the capital even though the warnings were present. None of these people have been punished. Worse, they have been rewarded. The reality is the rubes that fell for the con acted more like dogs that caught the mail truck. Most went in expecting to capture facebook picture and video for social media. Some went in to do harm but then ran with their tail between their legs when one of their own was shot and killed. Despite all the weapons brought in the capital, there wasn’t a shoot out. It was folks cosplaying a revolution orchestrated by grifters and con artists. The fact that the Dems are going after those that fell for the con and not the people that actually orchestrated the event (Trump for example) shows that this is all political theater for fundraising. skylined! posted:Do... do yall just completely ignore the many, many references to the house select committee, subpoenas issued, and arrest of Steve Bannon? Is it on purpose? Isn’t Bannon out free with no more than a pinky swear not to leave? virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Nov 18, 2021 |
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 02:35 |
|
|
Ugh, yes the absolute stupidity of it all completely undermines my initial silver lining excitement. quote:Do... do yall just completely ignore the many, many references to the house select committee, subpoenas issued, and arrest of Steve Bannon? Is it on purpose? They have a website you can keep up to date on the goings-on without having to go to CNN or whatever. I fixed my initial post. I still figure only little people will see heavy consequences and it is deeply disheartening. I think the 6th, like covid, should have been a big wake up call for major reform in our country and leadership. The "this is the dems fault" should more reasonably be put as "this is the system or status quos fault". Those defending the status quo above all else are simply "not as bad" as the republicans. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Nov 18, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:36
|
|
|
skylined! posted:Most of them didn't believe they were sacrificing anything. right, i know he's in jail, but i"m not concerned about a random guy beating on a pane of glass. I'm concerned about his apparent pre planned cooperation with the police and everything, including the press, is very silent on investigating that issue
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:37
|
|
|
Josh Mandel has decided that "Judeo-Christian Values" have gotten too liberal. https://twitter.com/JoshMandelOhio/status/1461112113087356938
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, it's a more prominent version of people denying that their Trump-voting acquaintances, relatives and friends are human trash that they should cut ties with. I'm sure many of these Democratic lawmakers know many Republicans very deeply as colleagues and even friends thanks to the gerontocracy the government is. Them? Couping? Noo...they're nice to me! This so juvenile and short sighted. If you think people are human trash for voting Republican and wouldn't speak with them, who are you going to associate with? Democrats aide and abet Republicans, so by that logic, we shouldn't talk to either Republicans or Democrats. Adults who are rational don't ostracize their relatives for "voting wrong." That is such a liberal point of view. Really owning them by having nobody to talk to at Thanksgiving or Christmas or having any family ties because Grandma voted the wrong way. So wise. So forward thinking.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:39
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:Not really much of an insurrection, unless you think the US government is run like a King of the Hill game and if the chuds can just hold the Senate floor long enough they become the new Senate. It wasnt even particularly violent. Jan 6th isn't even in the top 10 deadliest events in America *this year*. It's a lot like the russiarussiarussia stuff. Yeah they were happy to cynically hype it up for liberal audiences on MSNBC and in stump speeches. Russia collusion, Trump taking orders from the Kremlin, you're the puppet, Putin's man in the white house, America conquered without firing a shot, etc in the hopes that riling up their base with anger and fear would redound to their benefit politically in the midterms. But how did they treat the so-called Russian puppet president in private. "Hey Chuck and Nancy I need more executive power, I want a big beautiful domestic surveillance state to spy on my political enemies" "Coming right up sir, I hope these powers help the fbi murder dissidents, tell Putin hi for us! Let us know if you need anything else, your wish is our command! Is the military budget big enough for you, we want you to command a big strong powerful army!"
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:40
|
|
|
I actually do think that 1/6 is (and will go down in history) as the final nail in the coffin for American democracy but it wasn't the event itself that has convinced me of that, its the non-reaction to it from those in the halls of power. This 1/6 commission is basically just doing Russiagate 3.0, in which they send out a bunch of subpoenas every week, maybe even flip and jail a couple of the fall guys who will eventually get pardoned, but nobody with actual power gets touched with a 10 foot pole. Then they drag that out for months onto years of slow leaks to the media that makes Maddow liberals think the storm is coming and keeps them hooked while basically doing nothing meaningful. All the while the GOP keeps doing what they are doing. Its clear to me that every presidential (or even state) election that the dems win is going to go this way now -- call it fake, attempt to overturn it through state legislatures / SCOTUS (where they will probably succeed now), and if that doesn't work attempt a coup again. This will go on until the coup succeeds and Trump / the GOP nominee is made president for life, or it half succeeds and the nation collapses into civil war. Because ultimately why shouldn't they do it that way? What's the worst that will happen to them?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:41
|
|
|
mastershakeman posted:right, i know he's in jail, but i"m not concerned about a random guy beating on a pane of glass. I'm concerned about his apparent pre planned cooperation with the police and everything, including the press, is very silent on investigating that issue Despite what this thread may have you believe there is still a lot of investigation occurring. At least one cop was arrested for obstruction of justice. I think a lot of what we saw on video, with cops just letting people walk in, was spontaneous and due to their lack of support and ability to stop them. A bunch of cops were suspended immediately after and a bunch more investigated. I think part of what you are looking for is either in the house select committee or a part of ongoing FBI investigations, which will be held pretty tightly until charges drop.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:44
|
|
|
So how far do you think this supposed coup attempt everyone is so mad about would have gotten without police support? Don't you usually need the support of at least some of the military in order to pull off a coup, because otherwise its just some rowdies wandering around aimlessly committing petty vandalism? Because last I checked the democrats love the cops and gave them all shiny medals and a nice chunk of change. If our democracy can be taken down by a few thousand vacationers without weapons or support either its not a very stable democracy or the 'coup' is a made up fairy tale for children.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:45
|
|
|
Peter Daou Zen posted:This so juvenile and short sighted. If you think people are human trash for voting Republican and wouldn't speak with them, who are you going to associate with? Democrats aide and abet Republicans, so by that logic, we shouldn't talk to either Republicans or Democrats. Adults who are rational don't ostracize their relatives for "voting wrong." That is such a liberal point of view. by that twisted logic, I should also be more tolerant of my aunt, the elected democrat that abused her office to protect her pedophile rapist son from going to jail or even facing charges or having his pension stripped because he raped a girl while he was a juvenile corrections officer, but hey as long as she votes blue no matter what, she's a good and noble democrat and person.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:47
|
|
|
Feldegast42 posted:I actually do think that 1/6 is (and will go down in history) as the final nail in the coffin for American democracy but it wasn't the event itself that has convinced me of that, its the non-reaction to it from those in the halls of power. This 1/6 commission is basically just doing Russiagate 3.0, in which they send out a bunch of subpoenas every week, maybe even flip and jail a couple of the fall guys who will eventually get pardoned, but nobody with actual power gets touched with a 10 foot pole. Then they drag that out for months onto years of slow leaks to the media that makes Maddow liberals think the storm is coming and keeps them hooked while basically doing nothing meaningful. All the while the GOP keeps doing what they are doing. The whole reason the Nazi movement succeeded was because when they did the Beer Hall Putsch, the leaders got slaps on the wrist and just refocused on grabbing power once they got out of jail
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:48
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:So how far do you think this supposed coup attempt everyone is so mad about would have gotten without police support? Don't you usually need the support of at least some of the military in order to pull off a coup, because otherwise its just some rowdies wandering around aimlessly committing petty vandalism? Because last I checked the democrats love the cops and gave them all shiny medals and a nice chunk of change. What do you mean by "supposed coup attempt?" Do you not know what a coup attempt is? If you do, please explain why you don't think it was a coup attempt.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:53
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:So how far do you think this supposed coup attempt everyone is so mad about would have gotten without police support? Don't you usually need the support of at least some of the military in order to pull off a coup, because otherwise its just some rowdies wandering around aimlessly committing petty vandalism? Because last I checked the democrats love the cops and gave them all shiny medals and a nice chunk of change. I dunno, you could read the many times this was addressed in the last 10 pages if you weren't only interested in supporting your own internal narrative. This is partly why the qanon shaman got a reduced sentence vs what the prosecution was asking for. https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1461165513506123777?s=20
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:54
|
|
|
I think there's a massive amount of wishful thinking in both the Democratic and GOP establishments that things can just go back to normal if we can just get the economy back on track enough for people to be content with their lot again. Doing anything else means wrestling with very uncomfortable questions about what Americans really believe and what they really want that both parties cannot stomach (although the cowardice of the Democratic centrists is more visible right now). I might be lingering in these forums too often, but there is an air of delusion about a lot of people I encounter (and not just those involved in politics) just hoping that everything will eventually pass if we stay moderate because truly meeting the needs of the moment is just too uncomfortable for too many people. People feel too bogged down by everything else in life. Plus, how many people actually like democracy when it involves tolerating the needs and wishes you don't care for? Just look at how people here and in C-Spam deal with having to share the voting franchise with suburban whites. Part of me sadly thinks that deep down, there's a lot of people in our country who'd be happy to relinquish power to some benevolent despot so they wouldn't have to deal with the work that comes with real civic and political engagement. I'm not full of hope for the future.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
"Dems are so bad at things that I gotta carry water for violent fascists." is always my favorite "leftist" take.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:01
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:So how far do you think this supposed coup attempt everyone is so mad about would have gotten without police support? Don't you usually need the support of at least some of the military in order to pull off a coup, because otherwise its just some rowdies wandering around aimlessly committing petty vandalism? Because last I checked the democrats love the cops and gave them all shiny medals and a nice chunk of change. I think the plan was that if they blocked the certification that would force the issue and create a constitutional crisis where they could say that Trump is still president and hope in that crisis that the military (which Trump had been seeding, incompetently as it turned out, with his loyal men, like when he fired the SecDef the day after the election and installed one who wanted to crack protester heads even more than they did) would throw in with them. The coup failed the moment the joint chiefs saw what was going on and overturned Trump's stand down orders to the national guard, and the insurrectionists (aided and abetted by the capitol police) got cold feet after Ashli Babbitt got shot. So to answer your question our democracy is both not stable enough to prevent attacks to it like this from happening and stable enough to not destroy or disrupt the current order when they happen. Of course given that the GOP is inevitably going to try again (and once again, why not, when your leadership doesn't even get slaps on the wrists for it) eventually that current order is going to erode and collapse, one way or another. So this is why incrementalism in the current system is a dumb idea, because its increasingly clear that this current system isn't going to survive how it is for that much longer. What will come of it when it collapses I don't know, but its gonna be painful for a whole lot of people when it does. Feldegast42 fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Nov 18, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:02
|
|
|
Decon posted:"Dems are so bad at things that I gotta carry water for violent fascists." is always my favorite "leftist" take. Nobody should go full Greenwald.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Nobody should go full Greenwald. Glenn's right.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:05
|
|
|
I kinda want to peek into the alternative universes where one of the near misses didn't go so well, perhaps Pence got murdered, and see the hot takes in this thread then.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:06
|
|
|
I don't personally have the power to carry any water for the fascists, but the Democrats who keep insisting that they need a strong party and presence in our politics and keep treating them with kid gloves when they do fascist things sure do.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:09
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Glenn's right. Ya this scans.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:10
|
|
|
is pepsi ok posted:I don't personally have the power to carry any water for the fascists, but the Democrats who keep insisting that they need a strong party and presence in our politics and keep treating them with kid gloves when they do fascist things sure do. That stance is a wee bit different from the various attempts to insist the fascists weren't there to do what they repeatedly and openly stated they intended to do. I agree that the Dem response to 1/6 has been as Demmy as it gets ("we got millions of eyes and lots of energy on this issue! Let's drag our loving feet and grovel for bipartisanship with the people that tried to get us killed") but minimizing the event and the, again, plainly stated intentions behind it, is carrying loving water. By all means, help the national narrative shift towards "1/6 was just a riot but entire cities burned down in the summer" in your small way. No snowflake in an avalanche after all, and when's something bad ever come of ignoring fascists threats, intents, and tactics?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:11
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Glenn's right. He can be right about many things without cuddling up to fascists. His takes are hot and often have insight but man the guy can sure appear to be comfortable with authoritarian fascists and outright bigots. Didn't he call the 1/6 rioters political prisoners? is pepsi ok posted:I don't personally have the power to carry any water for the fascists, but the Democrats who keep insisting that they need a strong party and presence in our politics and keep treating them with kid gloves when they do fascist things sure do. It is indeed a problem. Not sure how things get better when the people that have the power to do so are too incompetent or corrupt to do so. It does not bode well for people's futures.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:14
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Glenn's right. I dunno man. Have you seen his most recent assessments? I'm not sure that the judgement of someone who: - Has devolved to just posting Newsmax ratings every night to "own" CNN. - Says the 1/6 rioters were "political prisoners" with more moral integrity than Black Lives Matter protesters. - Thinks trans women are just jealous of gay men and want to rape women under the cover of diversity. - Thinks that Tucker Carlson is the only visible true socialist in American politics. - That wanting your kids to be vaccinated makes you mentally ill and wearing masks shows your cowardice. - Gets into fights with completely random twitter people because they have "they/theirs" written in their Twitter bio and replied to him. - Has said that Facebook should be added to the rights protected under the first amendment. - Is rabidly defensive of the Judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse case for being "not PC" in his treatment of Kyle. - That wanting to change the gender on your birth certificate is the "ultimate expression of the power of narrative over facts" and trans people want to do it to flex their power. Just happened to nail it exactly right on this one when everyone else missed it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:15
|
|
|
is pepsi ok posted:I don't personally have the power to carry any water for the fascists, but the Democrats who keep insisting that they need a strong party and presence in our politics and keep treating them with kid gloves when they do fascist things sure do. No there is a committee happening right now to get the bad people, who all happen to be random tourists or disfavored political hacks. They're going to arrest Trump ANY DAY NOW for his role in launching a very real coup against our sacred democracy. In the meantime though we absolutely need a strong and healthy republican party to vigorously support the bipartisan conversation that has made America great. Joe Biden says so, and people elected him president, so he must be very smart. All that gerrymandering in forever majorities is just part of a strong and healthy republican party, which is why its just going to happen without pushback.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:17
|
|
|
Phobic Nest posted:I kinda want to peek into the alternative universes where one of the near misses didn't go so well, perhaps Pence got murdered, and see the hot takes in this thread then. The same idiots would still be saying it wasn't a coup attempt in all of those universes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:17
|
|
|
skylined! posted:I dunno, you could read the many times this was addressed in the last 10 pages if you weren't only interested in supporting your own internal narrative. Trumo needs to put money on the man's books
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:- Thinks that Tucker Carlson is the only visible true socialist in American politics. Not gonna bother with the rest of what you typed. If you think Glenn says this at even a level of .000001% earnestness...you're not actually paying attention to Glenn. It'd be like me saying that I support the Democrats' communist agenda. It's not said in anything approaching good faith - but it serves as a very clear indicator that someone is only paying attention to the content on a surface level, searching for keywords to mash together with no further examination. I'd also like to take the opportunity to again point out the weird encyclopedic knowledge some self-labeled left posters have of right wing media personalities.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:No there is a committee happening right now to get the bad people, who all happen to be random tourists or disfavored political hacks. They're going to arrest Trump ANY DAY NOW for his role in launching a very real coup against our sacred democracy. Tourists don't usually break break in windows and chant about hanging people. Stop minimizing bad poo poo because you're too lazy to find a clever way to dunk on libs. Yes, weirdly, I consider fascists--even poorly organized ones--finding the seat of government to be a soft target in a moment of transition a Bad Thing™. How weird of me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:22
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:- Thinks that Tucker Carlson is the only visible true socialist in American politics. He's the only one allowed by the system to say any populist or leftist economic critique so unfortunately, Glenn's right in this case. (fake populism / socialism, but still)
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:23
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Not gonna bother with the rest of what you typed. If you think Glenn says this at even a level of .000001% earnestness...you're not actually paying attention to Glenn. It'd be like me saying that I support the Democrats' communist agenda. It's not said in anything approaching good faith - but it serves as a very clear indicator that someone is only paying attention to the content on a surface level, searching for keywords to mash together with no further examination. Hi hello you are deluding yourself. Glenn is actually a reactionary idiot and means 100% all the poo poo he posts on twitter. https://twitter.com/samthielman/status/1460043418525216768?s=20 Lib and let die posted:I'd also like to take the opportunity to again point out the weird encyclopedic knowledge some self-labeled left posters have of right wing media personalities. No one but you thinks this is weird. Understanding and tracking the moves of the right has been a basic project of the left for centuries and it takes all of 10 seconds to pull up an exhausting list of dumb poo poo someone as terminally online as greenwald has given the universe. skylined! fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 18, 2021 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:23
|
|
|
Glenn is real, and strong, and he is my friend.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:25
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Not gonna bother with the rest of what you typed. If you think Glenn says this at even a level of .000001% earnestness...you're not actually paying attention to Glenn. Somebody needs to tell Glenn this. quote:I don't consider Bernie Sanders a socialist. He's someone that is about nothing more than trying to sandpaper the edges off neoliberalism. I would describe a lot of people on the right as being socialist. I would consider Steve Bannon to be socialist. I would consider the 2016 iteration of Donald Trump the candidate to be a socialist, based on what he was saying. I would consider Tucker Carlson to be a socialist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:29
|
|
|
This tweet and the article he’s defending are, uh, bad to say the least https://twitter.com/edburmila/status/1461353694562172940?s=21
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:31
|
|
|
Being a Glenn Greenwald fan in 2021 is like the political equivalent of still being really into Crazy Town.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
I mean the idea wasn't for the storming of the Capitol to *do* anything except disrupt the proceedings long enough for Pence to throw out the certification. Backed up by Trump as always saying the quiet part loud and freaking out on Pence for taking Dan Quayle's advice instead of his (what an odd historical footnote that is)
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:This tweet and the article he’s defending are, uh, bad to say the least Look. Defending someone's overt anti-black racism, ideally in a painfully melodramatic tone, is the Only True Leftism™ and if you disagree then you're the reason that the left has no power.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:37
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Somebody needs to tell Glenn this. quote:I don't consider Bernie Sanders a socialist. He's someone that is about nothing more than trying to sandpaper the edges off neoliberalism. Glenn's right. Bernie's capitulation to and integration into the status quo is more proof of that than anything. quote:I would describe a lot of people on the right as being socialist. I would consider Steve Bannon to be socialist. I would consider the 2016 iteration of Donald Trump the candidate to be a socialist, based on what he was saying. I would consider Tucker Carlson to be a socialist. quote:based on what he was saying What you're doing is being needlessly pedantic - because Glenn isn't saying "right wing beliefs often mirror leftist beliefs in description of an issue and differ in why it's an issue or how to solve it" for each instance of an example of a right-wing figure holding a belief that overlaps with left with thought (like, say, that the USA shouldn't be involved in Syria?) This is extremely uncomfortable to you and others like you because in order to organize against US interventionism, it dawns on you that...you have to organize along the same lines as, yes, a - gasp - Trump voter! Objectively, a promise to "do the healthcare for everyone" (what Trump was really trying to say, I doubt we'll ever know, but the general interpretation of this has been a massive expansion of Medicare/aid with the unspoken caveat of "once we figure out how to apply it to only the right people") is a promise to do a left-wing, borderline socialist thing, so Glenn Is Right in his assessment that Trump was voicing a socialist thought paradigm, even if it wasn't coming from an objectively left agenda. quote:I think the vision is, you know, you have this kind of right-wing populism, which really is socialism, that says we should close our borders, not allow unconstrained immigration, and then take better care of our own working-class people and not allow this kind of transnational, global, corporatist elite to take everything for themselves. You are conflating anti-statism/anarchism with socialism. Socialism is not a system of open borders. What's the line here? "You're repeating right-wing talking points? Do better?" is that it?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:37
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Not gonna bother with the rest of what you typed. If you think Glenn says this at even a level of .000001% earnestness...you're not actually paying attention to Glenn. It'd be like me saying that I support the Democrats' communist agenda. It's not said in anything approaching good faith - but it serves as a very clear indicator that someone is only paying attention to the content on a surface level, searching for keywords to mash together with no further examination. You were just posting the One Meme from the Glenn Thread; there is no need to try and pretend you meant it sincerely.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 02:35 |
|
|
DeathChicken posted:I mean the idea wasn't for the storming of the Capitol to *do* anything except disrupt the proceedings long enough for Pence to throw out the certification. Backed up by Trump as always saying the quiet part loud and freaking out on Pence for taking Dan Quayle's advice instead of his (what an odd historical footnote that is) I guess if "overthrowing the democratic process" isn't "anything" then you're right.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2021 16:42
|
|