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Lib and let die posted:Well I'm certainly glad I put in the effort in D&D today! This was a positive interaction that makes me want to return and discuss politics. You're actually one of the best posters here, an even better poster than a lot of the self-professed best posters on the forum. Uh you probably should. No one who glenn has aligned himself with are showing up to protest, and they in fact cheer on and actively support and enable the policies that advance the US imperialist project because it serves them directly. Talk about needing luck. This is so utterly naive. I will always pay my dog tax. 
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Nov 18, 2021 18:00
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I don't stan Glenn (though I like the thread) and disagree with most of the points he makes. I think he does make some good points about social media and censorship, the incestuous relationship between corporate media and government, and about mainstream media's degradation into view/outrage chasing. However, just because I agree with some of his points, it doesn't mean he isn't hypocritical.Lib and let die posted:Once again, I must point out, that you are making the critical mistake of believing Glenn is being sincere in calling right wing figureheads socialist. They express frustrations that overlap with socialist criticism and Glenn (and I!) think it's funny to say that. If it doesn't piss off the conservative you're engaging with, it's going to piss off the liberal observer, and it opens an avenue for dialog where one might not necessarily exist without someone like Glenn to make that overlap. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:this is figurative horse poo poo. Basically, the points he makes on twitter and elsewhere are an attempt to get intellectual engagement from conservative or independent audience, not the bad faith mouth pieces like Tucker Carlson. His retweeting and explaining of bad faith/right-wing actors about issues that ostensibly overlap with own political opinions or with the liberal/left beliefs, is partially to this end. Also he loves getting in twitter fights. In my opinion, by giving credence to their view of problems/arguments as if they were made in good faith he's giving them legitimacy they don't deserve and ought not to have . Same with certain labels (like calling Andy Ngo and James O'Keefe "journalists"). But if he came out swinging as people on SA do he would lose the engagement of conservatives and independents who aren't swayed by liberal orthodoxy and have fierce reactions to certain buzzwords. The hypocrisy with liberals and leftists he tries to point out is that they're for reforming the justice system, against censorship, against violence against journalists or law-enforcement overreach and etc BUT if it's someone on the other team suddenly they hold the opposite views... which can be the case but the examples he chooses... hoo boy. I don't know if it's his attempt at argument ad absurdum or what. He'll also go on basically any shows he's invited onto. He won't be invited onto mainstream media shows anymore because he didn't go along with Russia-gate stuff. VitalSigns posted:While it is very funny that Glenn trollishly points out Republicans cynically winning easily on promising popular left-wing ideas that Democrats insist are "too far left" to run on themselves, considering he's just now decided that vaccine mandates (which have existed for 50 years) are a new tyranny now that a Democrat is in charge and more covid death would make Democrats look bad, he may not actually be coming from a place of good intentions He is extremely libertarian-brained and also constitutional lawyer-brained.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Which is kind of a bummer, because I started reading him in 2006 and, except for his very bad takes on immigration, found him entertaining and informative for most of the Bush and Obama eras. Agreed; Greenwald's 2009-2010 salon.com pieces on Dems using the rotating-villain method of legislative inaction on things voters wanted were brilliant, and he's been proven correct time & again since then.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:02
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DeathChicken posted:I mean the idea wasn't for the storming of the Capitol to *do* anything except disrupt the proceedings long enough for Pence to throw out the certification. Backed up by Trump as always saying the quiet part loud and freaking out on Pence for taking Dan Quayle's advice instead of his (what an odd historical footnote that is) I made this point pages ago and no one trying to downplay the coup attempt engaged with it. Using violence / the threat of violence to overturn a democratic election and install the loser is a coup attempt. It doesn't have to be orchestrated by a tiny cabal of mustache twirlers, it doesn't have to be done competently.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:03
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Guess which socialist said thisquote:... in the capitalistic democratic world the most important principle of economy is that the people exist for trade and industry, and that these in turn exist for capital. I'll reverse this principle by making capital exist for trade and industry, and trade and industry exist for the people. In other words, the people come first. Everything else is but a means to this end. When an economic system is not capable of feeding and clothing a people, then it is bad, regardless of whether a few hundred people say: 'As far as I am concerned it is good, excellent; my dividends are splendid.' It was Hitler of course. You can tell it's not Trump because it's too coherent You can't trust the socialist rhetoric because, well, they're not socialists. Like it's clear as day, they don't look, don't sounds and don't quack like socialists.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:03
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Yeah this is just solidifying my belief that "leftism" is mostly just useful catspaws to get people to buy into a cult of personality before bringing the ones with radical beliefs around to supporting the status quo. Glenn Greenwald was right at one point therefore he must be right in perpetuity I say as he starts telling people to support loving American politicians and the American media. You know the people who he railed against in his writing back when I started following him and haven't changed meaningfully since then.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:03
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Glenn also had some minor issues with women and trans people before, but it was usually a statement that made you go "oof" once every 3 months. Something seems to have driven him up the wall about trans issues especially recently and he is pretty hateful about it. Part of it might be that he doesn't have editors anymore and going ham with his more extreme views gets clicks. Nothing says "libertarian" like policing other people's bodies and expressions of gender. vvvvv very well put
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Nov 18, 2021 18:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Glenn also had some minor issues with women and trans people before, but it was usually a statement that made you go "oof" once every 3 months. Something seems to have driven him up the wall about trans issues especially recently and he is pretty hateful about it. Part of it might be that he doesn't have editors anymore and going ham with his more extreme views gets clicks. What drove him up the wall is trans people becoming more accepted and mocking them like the Daily Show's "Judge Chick With Dick" joke becoming less acceptable. Most everyone just coasts along with unexamined bigotries we picked up from the culture, we're not bad people for it, but it's a bad thing. When the culture starts changing suddenly we're confronted with this tension. Decent people take a good hard look at themselves and say "hey why do I believe it's wrong to live in this different way that doesn't affect me at all, maybe I should reconsider." Less decent people say "it's like the whole world has gone CRAZY except for ME!! I must band together with the only people still MAKING SENSE! Hey wait a minute how did all these Nazis get into my rational thinkers club". Even less decent people start to think "hm if the Nazis are the only rational ones about trans people maybe Nazis got a bad rap very unfairly!"
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Nov 18, 2021 18:05
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CommieGIR posted:Oh come on. Both siding Glenn Greenwald, that's a loving hot take. I had no idea that Glenn Greenwald was a topic you had to take a hard stance on.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:07
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I made this point pages ago and no one trying to downplay the coup attempt engaged with it. Using violence / the threat of violence to overturn a democratic election and install the loser is a coup attempt. It doesn't have to be orchestrated by a tiny cabal of mustache twirlers, it doesn't have to be done competently. Was there ever any indication that Pence knew, cared, or participated in any of the planning going around January 6th? If the people on the ground has been successful in accomplishing (their incredibly ill defined) goals, would Pence have stepped in and complied as needed? If so, why isn't he being seriously charged and investigated for it?
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Nov 18, 2021 18:08
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Lib and let die posted:Nah, I think Bernie genuinely thinks he's a lefty, and he's been beaten down into submission by a system that has wholly rejected his politics from top to bottom. He's a doddering old man who's outlived his service to the american left, and he should be at peace with the progress he's made when he passes on. he did good. go, retire, be with your family in your golden days - you've genuinely earned it, bernie. I dunno, voting no on the defense bill seems like a pretty good thing to me...
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Nov 18, 2021 18:08
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skylined! posted:Uh you probably should. I don't expect Tucker to show up at a protest. I do believe there's a reasonable hope that some of his viewers might, which is largely the gambit Glenn is making - yes, Tucker sucks clown rear end, but Tucker also has the biggest audience on cable TV so, like it or not...that's kind of the point of the whole journalism game, isn't it? Getting your reporting out to as many people as possible? Would he be better served restricting his appearances to only Majority Report or TYT or some other niche channel where they might not be openly hostile to Glenn refuting lovely CIA intel about CNN won't have him on. MSNBC won't have him on - and the very Syrian reporting that got him ousted from the Guardian is actually starting to come out that, well, hey, look at that, Glenn was right, and we really don't have any business loving around in Syria! Hard fought victories for progress are littered with alignment across otherwise unthinkable lines. The modern 40-hour-work-week would be even longer, were it not for the cross-class organization of the wealthy consumers of high end fashion and the workers that made the clothes. Organizing within an in-group is easy. Babytown frolicks, even. It's like going into, I don't know, the Dark Souls thread in Games and saying "hey should I get this game? Is it any good?" Get at me when you're trying to pull people to common ground from belief systems where you wouldn't traditionally find allies.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:10
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Lib and let die posted:I don't expect Tucker to show up at a protest. I do believe there's a reasonable hope that some of his viewers might, which is largely the gambit Glenn is making - yes, Tucker sucks clown rear end, but Tucker also has the biggest audience on cable TV so, like it or not...that's kind of the point of the whole journalism game, isn't it? Getting your reporting out to as many people as possible? I am positive that your language here feels very good but glenn is not engaging in any actual organizing so the point is moot. I would argue his alignment with literal fascists has done far more to move leftists over into the "let's talk about the trans question" camp than it has moved any right-wingers into caring about labor rights or state surveillance or whatever. He does, however, make a hell of a lot of money off tv appearances and substack subscriptions. Curious.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:16
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Lib and let die posted:Nah, I think Bernie genuinely thinks he's a lefty, and he's been beaten down into submission by a system that has wholly rejected his politics from top to bottom. He's a doddering old man who's outlived his service to the american left, and he should be at peace with the progress he's made when he passes on. he did good. go, retire, be with your family in your golden days - you've genuinely earned it, bernie. Again, I don't really understand this point of view. Manchin, Sinema and a good chunk of congress have all the leverage. The system as it exists today means that only the left have something to gain from those infrastructure bills which while insufficient to deal with the wider problems of America will still make a huge difference in the lives of a lot of people who would normally have to deal with decaying infrastructure in ways the rich of this country will not. If you're rich or from a rich area you're immune to a lot of the issues the BIF bill tries to fix. We went through a Republican dominated congress and white house where infrastructure week was a running gag. These sorts of public works projects would be right in line with the kinds of Keynesian policies the US was known for after the 1930s. The companies involved with infrastructure will make their money elsewhere if the bill sinks. The conservatives in congress have absolutely nothing to lose from these bills failing. You and many of the other posters in this thread have this all-or-nothing mindset that makes me question how committed you are to left wing causes. It's easy to talk about shooting the hostage and voting down much needed public works projects to make a political point when you are coddled and comfortable in your little enclave. Or you're just so blackpilled that nothing the world does will change your suffering so you want to take everyone else down with you. Like the municpal tax base in rich areas is sufficient to cover their infrastructure needs and many of those people work from home, have easy access to air travel or have other means to bypass many of the problems associated with infrastructure. Baltimore used to be part of America's industrial might throughout WW2 and into the 1960s only for it to decay and become a blighted rusty shadow of its former self. A lot of this money is going directly into the city and will revitalize its ports system which was criticized indirectly in shows like "The Wire" as an example of a long lost and irrelevant economic center. So going back to how many of you seem to be okay with hanging working class America out to dry, I want to question the practicality of this stuff here. If the CPC, Bernie and others voted to shoot down BIF unless the 3.5T bill passed what do you think will happen? Nothing. Both bills die, the Democrats get completely wiped out in congress and we have another GOP Trifecta later on after 2 years of congressional gridlock. Like this at least some sort of material benefit has been provided to the country. But apparently none of that is good enough for you guys. It's like voting for BIF somehow automatically cancels the left and it can't continue to work through parallel channels to get other aspects of the agenda advanced. I find the entire thing stupid and very selfish. I'd love for some of you to get in front of some tradespeople or construction workers and tell them they won't have any work to do to support their families because you wanted the democrats to throw temper tantrums in congress. Manchin is going to be safe no matter what and the GOP have gerrymandered their majorities. Literally nothing the dems do is going to change the electoral calculus for them unless another external apolitical event shocks the electorate to vote for the Dems again. So you might as well take whatever you can get and then continue fighting for stuff outside of the political system which is obviously very much rigged against the left.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:17
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Kraftwerk posted:You and many of the other posters in this thread have this all-or-nothing mindset that makes me question how committed you are to left wing causes. It's easy to talk about shooting the hostage and voting down much needed public works projects to make a political point when you are coddled and comfortable in your little enclave. Or you're just so blackpilled that nothing the world does will change your suffering so you want to take everyone else down with you. I just want you to know that I read all of this, and this specific line is why I'm not going to bother engaging. I've been very open that the last couple of years have been anything but a "coddled and comfortable" experience. Kindly go gently caress yourself, with all due 
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Nov 18, 2021 18:21
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My extended family's gone full horsedrugs-chugging Qanon, so I'm happy to never interact with them again.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:23
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Peter Daou Zen posted:Wait, you are saying you believe AOC when she said she was *this* close to being captured and murdered by the mob of "chuds" who had somehow gotten into the Capitol? Come on now. I don't give one soggy gently caress about what any politician said. Parler, gab, theDonald, etc were plastered with plain declarations of what they intended to do and how, and, again, we have footage of a gaggle of dipshits tearing through the house floor looking for the ballots. Hell, Parler was even sending the FBI piles of posts of people threatening politicians in Dec 2019. Stop pretending the intentions of the violent lunatics in DC that day is unknowable or that they were just some lovable fuckups. Their fascistic intents we're stated plainly. Cow Bell posted:Was there ever any indication that Pence knew, cared, or participated in any of the planning going around January 6th? If the people on the ground has been successful in accomplishing (their incredibly ill defined) goals, would Pence have stepped in and complied as needed? If so, why isn't he being seriously charged and investigated for it? Because Dems are crippled by terminal poisoning.
Decon fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 18:27
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Kraftwerk posted:You and many of the other posters in this thread have this all-or-nothing mindset that makes me question how committed you are to left wing causes. It's easy to talk about shooting the hostage and voting down much needed public works projects to make a political point when you are coddled and comfortable in your little enclave. Or you're just so blackpilled that nothing the world does will change your suffering so you want to take everyone else down with you. These are really unfair things to assume about people that you don't know personally. Not all leftists are cishet white male computer touchers; a lot of us have quite a bit at stake in seeing social spending increased in this country.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:29
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Majorian posted:These are really unfair things to assume about people that you don't know personally. Not all leftists are cishet white male computer touchers; a lot of us have quite a bit at stake in seeing social spending increased in this country. For what it's worth I interpreted this as "happy in a place where your political beliefs and vengeances are not challenged" and not an analysis of political alignments based on material existence.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:40
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This thread really should be renamed "inventing people to get mad at".
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Nov 18, 2021 18:44
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Gumball Gumption posted:This thread really should be renamed "inventing people to get mad at". It would balance out the Glenn thread's stint with a title of "The getting mad at people you agree with thread"
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Nov 18, 2021 18:45
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BRJohnson posted:Pretty sure that in here most know the 6th was bad and could have been worse, and we can call Republican voters actual nazis and proud white supremacists, fine whatever unfortunately pretty much accurate. This is the status quo for the left in America. It has never, ever managed to work in building a labor movement in America except when the labor movements were as bigoted as the rest of the society. No messaging you will have will reach these people if what you are proposing benefits those they hate. It achieves absolutely nothing. With this message, Bernie lost, and the left has like six actual representatives and one senator. They focus on nothing but yelling at the power and it gets nothing done. It is, additionally, the exact same message of the liberal Democrats. Both the left and the liberals say that American people need to unite to build better America. Neither has for the last few decades much to show for it. How are you revamping that message to reach Republicans? What can you say that hasn't been said? It isn't a top down message that I am proposing, it is a bottom up message. Yeah, loving fight viciously, give no quarter, gently caress if they are close colleagues, friends and considering how inbred the political elite are, probably family. Don't allow people to get away with saying and doing horrific poo poo without flipping the gently caress up or considering them pariahs. Nobody who didn't fight viciously has achieved anything. The establishment Democrats will not upset the Christmas dinners or bipartisan decorum if Democratic-leaning Americans don't. Republican leaning Americans are vicious and support being vicious with their vote. You see much compromise? And no, there is no need to go straight to killing fascists, but if you keep excusing all the bad things they do, including half-assed coups guess what you will sooner or later have to do? Lot of countries can tell you. These people will not be part of any solution to America's woes, because they are literally willing and eager participants in it absolute worst aspects. No amount of appealing to their material needs will get anything but a fraction of them to your side, not worth the moral compromises and sheer action it takes when you could spend all that on someone who doesn't vote or can't vote due to barriers. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 18:46
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Lib and let die posted:It would balance out the Glenn thread's stint with a title of "The getting mad at people you agree with thread" a-comprehensive-history-of-leftism.txt DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, loving fight viciously, give no quarter, gently caress if they are close colleagues, friends and considering how inbred the political elite are, probably family. Don't allow people to get away with saying and doing horrific poo poo without flipping the gently caress up or considering them pariahs. That's a fine decision for you to make about your own life, but I don't think it's fair to demand that someone who you don't know, whose circumstances you don't understand, etc, do the same. Also, isn't there already a thread for talking about racist/right-wing family members here in DnD? I could've sworn there was one at one time.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:48
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Kraftwerk posted:You and many of the other posters in this thread have this all-or-nothing mindset that makes me question how committed you are to left wing causes. It's easy to talk about shooting the hostage and voting down much needed public works projects to make a political point when you are coddled and comfortable in your little enclave. Or you're just so blackpilled that nothing the world does will change your suffering so you want to take everyone else down with you. You don't know anything about the posters here so just make factual, moral, or hell even emotional arguments about your position instead this weak-sauce bullshit where you just imagine people who disagree with you can be dismissed for ~*ReAzOnS*~ DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, loving fight viciously, give no quarter, gently caress if they are close colleagues, friends and considering how inbred the political elite are, probably family. Don't allow people to get away with saying and doing horrific poo poo without flipping the gently caress up or considering them pariahs. Nobody who didn't fight viciously has achieved anything. Let's make a deal, when people can meet the incredibly high expectation of "do not vote for a rapist" then I'll happily ruin Christmas over my family's dumb political opinions. It's just farcical, politics reduced to the personal again, at no point can we even consider demanding more from our elected officials, but we have to fight tooth and nail against grandma repeating non-sense from Fox News. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 18:51
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skylined! posted:For what it's worth I interpreted this as "happy in a place where your political beliefs and vengeances are not challenged" and not an analysis of political alignments based on material existence. It's this. And this is the danger of modern online discourse and social media siloing. Little bubbles where you're always right, and your friends hoot and holler and echo your correctness 24/7. It's brain poison, man.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:51
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Cow Bell posted:Was there ever any indication that Pence knew, cared, or participated in any of the planning going around January 6th? Cow Bell posted:If the people on the ground has been successful in accomplishing (their incredibly ill defined) goals, would Pence have stepped in and complied as needed? If so, why isn't he being seriously charged and investigated for it? (Sorry to pick on you specifically, but there’s been days of this specific flavor of post over ‘n over)
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Nov 18, 2021 18:53
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This is like "it's not $15 but why aren't you happy with a new $10 minimum wage? That's real material progress." When 15 has been insufficient for a minute
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Nov 18, 2021 18:54
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Majorian posted:That's a fine decision for you to make about your own life, but I don't think it's fair to demand that someone who you don't know, whose circumstances you don't understand, etc, do the same. I think it is entirely fair to ask that if they ask their political representatives to do the same. Can you imagine how long some of these ghouls have known eachother? There are probably senators whose combined drinking sessions are older than I am. Ciprian Maricon posted:Let's make a deal, when people can meet the incredibly high expectation of "do not vote for a rapist" then I'll happily ruin Christmas over my family's dumb political opinions. Feel free to demand more, but to my knowledge politicians don't really get the point with those alone. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 18:56
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Irony isn't real. Ironic racism/transphobia/homophobia isn't real. Ironic fascism isn't real. If you're saying fascist things on social and then expecting people do work to figure out you were "just making a point/playing", you're just a fascist with extra steps.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:57
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DarkCrawler posted:I think it is entirely fair to ask that if they ask their political representatives to do the same. Can you imagine how long some of these ghouls have known eachother? There are probably senators whose combined drinking sessions are older than I am. That's not a very good comparison, though. Senators and representatives are usually pretty economically secure, and don't often rely on their colleagues on the other side of the aisle as a support network. People who aren't in positions of power, on the other hand, often do need to rely on their family members for support, even if they vehemently disagree with them.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:00
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Cow Bell posted:Was there ever any indication that Pence knew, cared, or participated in any of the planning going around January 6th? If the people on the ground has been successful in accomplishing (their incredibly ill defined) goals, would Pence have stepped in and complied as needed? If so, why isn't he being seriously charged and investigated for it? From everything I've read they were heavily pressuring him to not certify the election leading up to 1/6 and on the day itself, so he was very aware of that part of the plan. I doubt he knew anything about any of the other "activities" planned to help throw things into chaos and make it easier for him to do so. There was no need to know. I despise the dude but I'll give him credit for doing the right thing. Of course had he tried to not certify he would have likely tarnished his reputation far more in the long run than the consequences he will face now, which are the end of his political career and every Trumper everywhere despising him for the rest of his life. That's why you don't get involved with people like Trump though, you will inevitably get put in a situation like this.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:02
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Lib and let die posted:I just want you to know that I read all of this, and this specific line is why I'm not going to bother engaging. I've been very open that the last couple of years have been anything but a "coddled and comfortable" experience. Ciprian Maricon posted:You don't know anything about the posters here so just make factual, moral, or hell even emotional arguments about your position instead this weak-sauce bullshit where you just imagine people who disagree with you can be dismissed for ~*ReAzOnS*~ Majorian posted:These are really unfair things to assume about people that you don't know personally. Not all leftists are cishet white male computer touchers; a lot of us have quite a bit at stake in seeing social spending increased in this country. I want to apologize for my statements here it was spoken in the heat of anger and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm just tired of nothing being done in a context where some sort of political progress has to be done because the country is falling apart at its seams and it's frustrating to watch entire sessions of congress come and go with nothing passing except a debt ceiling increase.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:04
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Kraftwerk posted:I want to apologize for my statements here it was spoken in the heat of anger and I didn't mean to offend anyone. That's big of you.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:09
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pthighs posted:From everything I've read they were heavily pressuring him to not certify the election leading up to 1/6 and on the day itself, so he was very aware of that part of the plan. I doubt he knew anything about any of the other "activities" planned to help throw things into chaos and make it easier for him to do so. There was no need to know. I despise the dude but I'll give him credit for doing the right thing. Of course had he tried to not certify he would have likely tarnished his reputation far more in the long run than the consequences he will face now, which are the end of his political career and every Trumper everywhere despising him for the rest of his life. I think we were saved primarily by pence thinking he had some possibility of a presidential bid in his future. Which is dumb as hell but I don't think he saw "hang Mike Pence" chants in his near future at the time. There isn't a god drat chance in hell that Trump, the guy that called Georgia election officials to try to get them to fudge numbers, wasn't telling his his VP to decertify. Not a loving chance. Also, Pence's security detail and Pence himself had probably been briefed on the chatter from extremists online, especially with a major rally happening, y'know, just across the National Mall. And any idiot with an internet connection could see what the Parler users wanted to do (even if this thread is "itt we pretend none of us saw the endless called for violence on 1/6 getting posted in the chuddosphere"). How much interplay there was between the wingnuts bashing in windows and Trump's inner circle there was remains to be seen, but there's not a chance in hell they didn't know.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:09
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DarkCrawler posted:Feel free to demand more, but to my knowledge politicians don't really get the point with those alone. I just don't think that me choke-slamming my sister's godfather through the thanksgiving table when he repeats some Tucker Carlson line is ever going to register with any politicians at all. This talk about how we have to confront the bad-think and wrong-opinions of the people we interact with everyday is a distraction, a reduction of politics to the personal, so were too busy fighting our coworkers and family members instead of the people who actually matter in all of this.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:09
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Majorian posted:That's not a very good comparison, though. Senators and representatives are usually pretty economically secure, and don't often rely on their colleagues on the other side of the aisle as a support network. People who aren't in positions of power, on the other hand, often do need to rely on their family members for support, even if they vehemently disagree with them. It's this. I had a seizure in April of this year. Neither of my in-laws are in the kind of shape to babysit an adult who could go grand mal for literally no reason at all so my Trump voting father dropped everything and hopped a flight from one end of the eastern seaboard to the other to stay with me so my wife could keep working her (not salaried!) job and I could be ferried around to various doctors' appointments and followups - we'd have been hosed if I'd cut my dad off because he voted bad.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:12
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Ciprian Maricon posted:I just don't think that me choke-slamming my sister's godfather through the thanksgiving table when he repeats some Tucker Carlson line is ever going to register with any politicians at all. This talk about how we have to confront the bad-think and wrong-opinions of the people we interact with everyday is a distraction, a reduction of politics to the personal, so were too busy fighting our coworkers and family members instead of the people who actually matter in all of this. You can do both. I don't really have the luxury of not responding to familial racism.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:12
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Lib and let die posted:Hard fought victories for progress are littered with alignment across otherwise unthinkable lines. The modern 40-hour-work-week would be even longer, were it not for the cross-class organization of the wealthy consumers of high end fashion and the workers that made the clothes. I get it. I really, truly do. I don't even begrudge you for viewing the situation like this. I know you don't believe in Electoralism, and a world where electoral politics is useless and direct action is all you've got, crossing traditional electoral lines is not only useful, its outright necessary. I just don't believe its possible. Not in America. The people you want to cross lines and find solidarity with hate you because you're an ally to people they don't consider people. I always return to the LBJ sentiment: poorest white man, better than richest black man, welcoming the pick-pocketing. It's true. It's visible everywhere. It's the biggest reason why I don't give up on Electoralism, because I don't believe mass movements in this country have any kind of future unless they're ideologically aligned, not just goal-aligned. There is no common ground, modern media and those who benefit from it have poisoned the well too thoroughly. What more evidence do you need then the existence of things like Blue Lives Matter as responses to Black Lives Matter, or people in exit polls in 2020 saying they voted for Trump because if their bosses saw a tax increase to the same level they were paying just two years earlier, it would mean losing jobs they'd had for a decade? Those you seek to find allies among have hung their entire identity on accepting as axiom that all the Left's ideas are wrong and personally dangerous to them, and that the only way their lives can get better is if the Others outside their group get hurt. Winning people who enjoy things to the side of the people who make those things is not in the same universe as winning over people who want your ideals cleansed from the earth.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:15
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Kraftwerk posted:I want to apologize for my statements here it was spoken in the heat of anger and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I definitely get that. Even as a non-electoralist, watching the Dems fail time after time to do the things that they need to do to survive politically is...befuddling, to say the least. I'm glad some infrastructure money got through, I hope it does good, and I'd be happy if the BBB managed to somehow pass with anything good at all intact. We'll see if things turn out that way, and if they don't, well, I hope it's a good crack-ping moment for a lot of the Democratic voter coalition. Either way, I appreciate you saying this; as far as I'm concerned we're cool. 
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Nov 18, 2021 19:16
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Ciprian Maricon posted:I just don't think that me choke-slamming my sister's godfather through the thanksgiving table when he repeats some Tucker Carlson line is ever going to register with any politicians at all. This talk about how we have to confront the bad-think and wrong-opinions of the people we interact with everyday is a distraction, a reduction of politics to the personal, so were too busy fighting our coworkers and family members instead of the people who actually matter in all of this. You want to hyperbole less? It already tells me you find the action of not tolerating fascists in your personal sphere too much of an effort to engage in. I don't. What exactly does stating this again do? Use right words. They're not "bad-think" and "wrong-opinions", they're the beliefs and morals of a person and what they want the world to be like, and they actively work towards the world being such. Fighting the only "people who matter" doesn't, hasn't and won't get you anywhere because these people won't be fighting the same people as you, ever. And because they too are the people who matter, as we all are. Politicians are not some mystical species with different rules. They will operate on the same broad moral norms and conventions as the rest of the society. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 19:21
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