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How are u posted:The alternative was the end of democracy in the United States. it's over you have to realise that at this point right?
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Nov 20, 2021 01:31
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Sephyr posted:Biden's original Chosen Son made his bones by being part of the legal team that let a billionaire duPont heir walk free after raping a baby. He was the DA who had to plead down the case when it became clear that they might actually lose in court. Not a lot of evidence, high priced opposing counsel, a guaranteed conviction is better than the chance of an acquital. If you want to blame someone, blame the judge who looked at the case of a man raping his three year old and decided 'probation seems more appropriate due to strong family support'.
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Nov 20, 2021 01:44
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How are u posted:The alternative was the end of democracy in the United States. which will be presented again as an option in 2024.
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Nov 20, 2021 01:45
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Bel Shazar posted:Think bigger, comrade Abolish all humans
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Nov 20, 2021 01:50
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Lastgirl posted:which will be presented again as an option in 2024. Well yeah, why run on actual substance and policy when you can just bandy about a completely empty Boogeyman like "Democracy will end five-ever (that's longer that forever) if you don't vote Blue no matter who!" Not Being The Other Guy is a way easier campaign promise than anything actually useful to people.
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Nov 20, 2021 01:53
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Kalit posted:Abolish all humans That's probably the right answer
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Nov 20, 2021 01:56
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Caros posted:He was the DA who had to plead down the case when it became clear that they might actually lose in court. Not a lot of evidence, high priced opposing counsel, a guaranteed conviction is better than the chance of an acquital. You're not wrong, but you'll forgive me for suspecting that both the judge and the DA were very keen on not antagonising a ridiculously wealthy/powerful family that could certainly help their careers if they showed some leniency.
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Nov 20, 2021 01:56
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How are u posted:The alternative was the end of democracy in the United States. That assertion depends on a demonstrably false presupposition that the United States is, or was, actually a democracy.
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Nov 20, 2021 01:56
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LGD posted:That assertion depends on a demonstrably false presupposition that the United States is, or was, actually a democracy. We've been an oligarchy for nearly a century now...
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Nov 20, 2021 02:06
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IT BURNS posted:We've been an oligarchy for nearly a century now... Also a Gerontocracy.
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Nov 20, 2021 02:12
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the_steve posted:Well yeah, why run on actual substance and policy when you can just bandy about a completely empty Boogeyman like "Democracy will end five-ever (that's longer that forever) if you don't vote Blue no matter who!" It is way easier, because hate and fear work as a way to get votes. They work way, way, way better than promising to change an unfair system with substance and policy, something I don't think Americans believe out of the mouth of anyone at this point even if they were serious. I wish the American left would understand this instead of complaining when the other factions in America do it, over and over again, and win as a result.
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Nov 20, 2021 02:29
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DarkCrawler posted:It is way easier, because hate and fear work as a way to get votes. They work way, way, way better than promising to change an unfair system with substance and policy, something I don't think Americans believe out of the mouth of anyone at this point even if they were serious. Except nobody ever actually tries, it's just assumed by default that policy can't possibly earn votes and the only Sensible Pragmatic Choice is to take a deep breath and get more racist Over-reliance on Not The Other Guy has put the Democratic Party in sharp decline for a decade and change now, it's not a viable long-term strategy because everyone already able to be swayed by it in the long-term votes Republican anyway. But for some reason nothing gains fiercer resistance than the notion of offering anything substantial. That's why the left is complaining. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 02:36
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DarkCrawler posted:It is way easier, because hate and fear work as a way to get votes. They work way, way, way better than promising to change an unfair system with substance and policy, something I don't think Americans believe out of the mouth of anyone at this point even if they were serious. This seems like a weird combination of centrist doomerism.
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Nov 20, 2021 02:45
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Regarde Aduck posted:it's over The system is working exactly as designed and intended. That's the whole problem.
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Nov 20, 2021 02:52
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I am personally very pro-democracy despite the suppositions some here may have abou huge communists. I guess I just dont get what that has to do with what we have in the US. Like not once in my life have I been permitted to actually vote for President lolTheDisreputableDog posted:Since discussing the reasoning behind the verdict is verboten I guess, my verdict-neutral take is that the prosecution tried some shameful bullshit. Whatever you feel about this specific case, implying that using your right not to talk to cops equates to guilt is terrible. Providing the defense with inferior versions of evidence you discovered after the trial started is terrible. They deserved to lose based on that alone. Prosecution was either throwing it or were the most incompetent clowns in history, it's hard to say. Definitely confident tho that if the jury hadn't acquitted it would've been a mistrial citing the moroj prosecutors
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Nov 20, 2021 03:01
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Some reasonably good news in the courts today. https://twitter.com/nickmartin/status/1461817849912172557?s=21 Or not good depending on how you view the likelihood of further radicalization in prison. And now to ruin it. https://twitter.com/jeremymbarr/status/1461873915605798912?s=21 skylined! fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 03:21
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Epic High Five posted:I am personally very pro-democracy despite the suppositions some here may have abou huge communists. I guess I just dont get what that has to do with what we have in the US. Like not once in my life have I been permitted to actually vote for President lol I mean, there was also the fact that the Judge was kneecaping them in real-time, in the courtroom. The fact that they over-reached in their case and did some stupid publicity stunts (that loving rifle photo is going to last for years) didn't help matters.
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Nov 20, 2021 03:24
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Seems like the takeaway from the rittenhouse case is dont take a skateboard to a gun fight
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Nov 20, 2021 03:45
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What are your blokes thoughts on Kyle Rittenhouse being found not guilty due to self-defence (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 20, 2021 03:54
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I'm wondering what kind of absolute chaos would happen if a democratic candidate busted out a primary debate answer advocating direct action and general strikes, then continued just calling for seizing the means, direct climate action, and mutual aid for the rest of the primary without regard for winning or even trying to win. Just signal boosting leftist policies as often and loudly as possible all the way to the convention. Would this increase, decrease, or keep neutral the amount of support and awareness for leftism and progressive policies? Also would this hypothetical candidate survive the primary season without getting Huey Longed?
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Nov 20, 2021 03:58
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Wizard Master posted:What are your blokes thoughts on Kyle Rittenhouse being found not guilty due to self-defence i find it strange that i've heard plenty of stories of people getting time for killing people who have broken into their homes and yet this idiot kid travels across state lines and goes to a protest locked and loaded, gets on the wrong end of a gun, and suddenly it's self defense and he walks idk that's just me tho
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Nov 20, 2021 03:59
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Unfortunately for him, Rittenhouse can't run for US House of Representatives until he's 25. So he has until 2028 to cash in on the RWM grifter circuit and find a deep-red district to run for Congress.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:01
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Wizard Master posted:What are your blokes thoughts on Kyle Rittenhouse being found not guilty due to self-defence Whole lotta people who think that him being guilty would have ~ended self defense in the US~ seem to have a big "women who are victims of rape/domestic violence" blind spot, if you can imagine that.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:04
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Framboise posted:i find it strange that i've heard plenty of stories of people getting time for killing people who have broken into their homes and yet this idiot kid travels across state lines and goes to a protest locked and loaded, gets on the wrong end of a gun, and suddenly it's self defense and he walks Then you have the guy in Portland who shot a Proud Boy and the cops just executed him in his driveway to the delight of Trump
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Nov 20, 2021 04:05
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HonorableTB posted:I'm wondering what kind of absolute chaos would happen if a democratic candidate busted out a primary debate answer advocating direct action and general strikes, then continued just calling for seizing the means, direct climate action, and mutual aid for the rest of the primary without regard for winning or even trying to win. Just signal boosting leftist policies as often and loudly as possible all the way to the convention. That candidate would getting a sternly worded talking to by Obama & subsequently be shut out from all establishment Dem fundraising & organizing. The media would ignore and/or ridicule the candidate so the signal-boosting would be shut down. We've already seen what happens to leftist candidates, or to even moderate candidates who advocate for leftist actions. There's no need to get gunmen when the party & capital will kill the candidacy through erasure & ridicule. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 04:06
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HonorableTB posted:I'm wondering what kind of absolute chaos would happen if a democratic candidate busted out a primary debate answer advocating direct action and general strikes, then continued just calling for seizing the means, direct climate action, and mutual aid for the rest of the primary without regard for winning or even trying to win. Just signal boosting leftist policies as often and loudly as possible all the way to the convention. Such a candidate would never be allowed to come within a light year of the primaries, let alone win them. Maybe that's not such a bad thing; I think the system is beyond repair and that if change is going to come, it'll have to rise up from the local grassroots. Politics and politicians is where leftism goes to die or get thwarted.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:09
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HonorableTB posted:I'm wondering what kind of absolute chaos would happen if a democratic candidate busted out a primary debate answer advocating direct action and general strikes, then continued just calling for seizing the means, direct climate action, and mutual aid for the rest of the primary without regard for winning or even trying to win. Just signal boosting leftist policies as often and loudly as possible all the way to the convention. If it really looked like they were gonna materialize it into a real threat, yeah they'd just get blasted, but I doubt it would get that far. They'd get no traction in the primary as soon as it started--no further debate appearances, complete media blackout, coordinated smear campaign if the previous two somehow weren't enough. It'd be gratifying while it lasted but it wouldn't last real long
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Nov 20, 2021 04:10
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FlamingLiberal posted:Then you have the guy in Portland who I fixed that for you. Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 04:25
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Kalit posted:I fixed that for you. only evidence that they supposedly have of him firing a gun is that they found a bullet casing in his car. Not sure a gun owner having a bullet casing in their car is a slam dunk case that they fired a gun at police. particularly when they had scores of cops out there trying to find literally anything impacted by a non-cop bullet and they found absolutely nothing at all. Anyways, more significantly https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/michael-reinoehl-antifa-killing-deputies-wont-be-charged-1230943/ quote:Rienoehl was a murder suspect wanted for the shooting death of right-wing agitator Aaron “Jay” Danielson in the streets of Portland in late August 2020. In a 24-page report, Prosecuting Attorney Jon Tunheim of Thurston County, concludes that, although Reinoehl never drew a weapon on the U.S. Marshal task force that came to arrest him, his killing was “justified under Washington State law.” Consensus has been for a while even among prosecutors and LEOs and poo poo that he never did anything with his gun on the day he was shot. The marshalls' story only suggest that he produced a gun, they dropped the 'he shot at us' allegation pretty quickly. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 04:31
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Kalit posted:I fixed that for you. What's your point?
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Nov 20, 2021 04:32
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Gumball Gumption posted:What's your point? There's a never-ending line of people who are willing to apologize for state violence is the point, I'd say.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:36
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Gonna super generalize Enough of the people who care enough to be informed and be passionate also are looking for a real answer not emotional reactionary justice (though I think it'd still be justice at this point personally). We will never shoot the hostage, and leftists with power(...) won't either. It's like do nothing or kick everything over in a self destructive fit are the only options presented to us. A well built machine indeed that presents only those two options. And the opposition knows it.
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Nov 20, 2021 04:57
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:If it really looked like they were gonna materialize it into a real threat, yeah they'd just get blasted, but I doubt it would get that far. They'd get no traction in the primary as soon as it started--no further debate appearances, complete media blackout, coordinated smear campaign if the previous two somehow weren't enough. It'd be gratifying while it lasted but it wouldn't last real long At best they'd be taken unseriously enough that they'd get a brief spell of airtime before the Dems shut them down so hard it makes their ratfucking of Bernie look like they anointed him Imperator Rex. There would be absolutely no need for them to JFK this person because the establishment's treatment of moderately center-left politicians who are entirely content to work within the establishment and want to make changes solely through legal, democratic reform, like Bernie and in the UK, Corbyn, shows just how effective political parties and the media are (Granted Corbyn did pretty well but that's because the Labour Right are so unbelievably arrogant they genuinely couldn't believe he would win at any stage and just assumed he would implode; it wasn't until he came within a hair's breadth of No. 10 in 2017 that they really stepped everything up and grew vastly more effective. Same token with Sanders, no need to do anything when he's some grouchy old guy from Vermont but when he looks like he could very well get the Dem nomination the knives are out).
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Nov 20, 2021 05:24
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Sedisp posted:This seems like a weird combination of centrist doomerism. I don't think it's centrist to ask the left, specifically, to take off their kid gloves, silk lined mittens and straight jackets that they insist on wearing because they're too scared to call fascists fascist because some of those fascists are related to them. And I honestly think sentiments like this are doomerism: TheIncredulousHulk posted:If it really looked like they were gonna materialize it into a real threat, yeah they'd just get blasted, but I doubt it would get that far. They'd get no traction in the primary as soon as it started--no further debate appearances, complete media blackout, coordinated smear campaign if the previous two somehow weren't enough. It'd be gratifying while it lasted but it wouldn't last real long F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Such a candidate would never be allowed to come within a light year of the primaries, let alone win them. Maybe that's not such a bad thing; I think the system is beyond repair and that if change is going to come, it'll have to rise up from the local grassroots. Politics and politicians is where leftism goes to die or get thwarted. Willa Rogers posted:That candidate would getting a sternly worded talking to by Obama & subsequently be shut out from all establishment Dem fundraising & organizing. The media would ignore and/or ridicule the candidate so the signal-boosting would be shut down. Why is this hypothetical leftist candidate who doesn't hold back even relying on establishment Democrats for funding or workforces? Why do they rely on whatever media contacts the establishment has for exposure? Erasure and ridicule? Media will show what will cause the most controversy, fights and outrage. That is why Trump got all the free media he could ever need. If they go the Bernie route and call you a class war wanting, conservative-hating rich-killer, good, lean into it. The only reason why leftists get tripped up by the media is that decorum poisoning - they defend and defend so that the mysterious materially applicable Republican that they're holding out hope for doesn't get too scared, so they can't possibly be (gasp) socialist or whatever word they're scared of. If the left can't even see a way to hostile takeover of the Democratic party, what the gently caress else is there? What is the endgame? Because this sort of thinking and level of motivation will definitely not accomplish much harder things such as propelling a third party to national (or even state-level) relevance, and that is just if we go with electoral methods.
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Nov 20, 2021 05:28
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What prompted this is me thinking about how Trump won the primaries by just saying all the quiet parts out loud accompanied with a total lack of giving a gently caress about decorum. Dunking on primary opponents during the debate and not caring about what the expectations of a politician are. In short, a populist. If the right can produce such a figure surely the left can as well, which is why I brought up the ghost of Huey Long
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Nov 20, 2021 05:31
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Herstory Begins Now posted:only evidence that they supposedly have of him firing a gun is that they found a bullet casing in his car. Fine, I guess I shouldn't have claimed that as a fact in that part in my post. But, honestly, I can't say I wouldn't be super jumpy when trying to confront a person grabbing at an object in their waist who's on the run, known to be armed, and had just talked about his gunshot being the start of a civil war. Gumball Gumption posted:What's your point? That Reinoehl's a huge piece of poo poo that seems to be praised by leftists for some stupid reason. I don't know if FlamingLiberal intended praise or not, but it's my gut reaction when someone downplays what Reinoehl did. Especially since FlamingLiberal claimed he was in his own driveway when he was in a friend's driveway while trying to run and hide. Kalit fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 05:43
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DarkCrawler posted:I don't think it's centrist to ask the left, specifically, to take off their kid gloves, silk lined mittens and straight jackets that they insist on wearing because they're too scared to call fascists fascist because some of those fascists are related to them. It's not doomerism to refuse to go along with the idea that a car can fly if you just drive it in a really specific way. It's a car, it's built to drive on the ground. To get it to fly would be to alter it so significantly that it's not a car anymore The Democrats as an organization are an opponent of leftists. Their leadership shouts it at the top of their lungs all the time. Try taking them over all you want--they're a lot smarter and more resourceful than you think when they feel like it. I don't think you're going to get anywhere, but good luck HonorableTB posted:What prompted this is me thinking about how Trump won the primaries by just saying all the quiet parts out loud accompanied with a total lack of giving a gently caress about decorum. Dunking on primary opponents during the debate and not caring about what the expectations of a politician are. In short, a populist. If the right can produce such a figure surely the left can as well, which is why I brought up the ghost of Huey Long The key difference is that Trump didn't materially endanger the stakeholders
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Nov 20, 2021 05:44
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Kalit posted:Fine, I guess I shouldn't have included that part of the post. But, honestly, I can't say I wouldn't be super jumpy when trying to confront a person grabbing at an object in their waist who's on the run, known to be armed, and had just talked about the start of a civil war. I like how you're just rolling past lying about key facts. Gotta defend the right of cops to murder people! Plenty of conservatives in Portland are carrying guns, known violent offenders, and talking about civil war. The police don't seem very jump about them.
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Nov 20, 2021 05:46
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HonorableTB posted:What prompted this is me thinking about how Trump won the primaries by just saying all the quiet parts out loud accompanied with a total lack of giving a gently caress about decorum. Dunking on primary opponents during the debate and not caring about what the expectations of a politician are. In short, a populist. If the right can produce such a figure surely the left can as well, which is why I brought up the ghost of Huey Long His name was Bernie Sanders. In both 2016 and 2020 all possible institutional stops were pulled out by Democrats to minimize, marginalize and denigrate his campaigns. Watching the entire Democratic party essentially destroy the campaigns of someone who's been the most consistent advocate for the necessary reforms for American society for decades was what radicalized me. I no longer believe the changes needed to reform American society are possible through the Democrats. Bernie represented the best chance for a true advocate of left-populism in generations and the Democrats made it clear they'd do anything possible to smother that in the crib. it's also why I don't vote Democrat anymore ex post facho fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 05:50
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:The key difference is that Trump didn't materially endanger the stakeholders This is a good point. I think it can only be countered by the hypothetical candidate's pro-poor and pro-working class messaging resonating enough that their popularity and publicity gives them some insulation from retaliation. This would require a candidate who grew up dirt poor and who understands the struggle and, more importantly, speak the language of the poor and oppressed. You can't do that in any genuine sense unless you've lived and experienced it first hand. This would solve the Dem messaging problem too. Dems right now are so lofty and intellectual and so focused on esoteric terminology and means testing and faux-woke concepts that the average working class poor has no real understanding of and if they do, no interest in because it doesn't pay bills or put food on the table, , and they won't until someone can deliver that message in a way that's understandable and relatable for the minimum wage worker taking on three part time jobs to make rent. They don't give a gently caress about critical race theory or whether orange man bad. They care about how they're keeping the heat on this winter. Dem policies are terrible at actually SHOWING AND TELLING voters how they are being helped and what kind of help is being given. This also brings a secondary benefit in that someone who actually grew up experiencing these conditions will always come across as more real, down to earth, and likable than Nancy Pelosi and her freezer. Full of $12 pints of ice cream HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 05:53
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