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DarkCrawler posted:I don't think it's centrist to ask the left, specifically, to take off their kid gloves, silk lined mittens and straight jackets that they insist on wearing because they're too scared to call fascists fascist because some of those fascists are related to them. I can’t speak for what others think the term doomerism means, but to me it’s a form of nihilism: things will never get better so why bother trying? That’s not what I mean at all. If I didn’t care I would probably not post on this thread at all. To me, it’s being real about a system that I don’t believe in anymore and I don’t think is worth saving because it doesn’t work for people who aren’t wealthy and white. We make a mistake if our imaginations are limited only to the lovely, outdated American model of what we laughingly call “democracy” now.
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Nov 20, 2021 05:55
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:It's not doomerism to refuse to go along with the idea that a car can fly if you just drive it in a really specific way. It's a car, it's built to drive on the ground. To get it to fly would be to alter it so significantly that it's not a car anymore So are you an advocate of running with a third party? Because again, if a radical faction taking over the Democratic Party is too hard, how the gently caress will you ever raise a third party? Seems to be that the same obstacles would be there, on top of the actual fact that the "car" not built for this poo poo iis the entire political system of the country instead of the workings of a single party. ex post facho posted:His name was Bernie Sanders. In both 2016 and 2020 all possible institutional stops were pulled out by Democrats to minimize, marginalize and denigrate his campaigns. His name was not Bernie Sanders. Bernie went with the same terminal decorum poisoning as the rest. The same path of not upsetting the hypothetical Trump voter who might change, of arguing how he isn't a socialist but a Democratic socialist and not Castro at all, and ads about promising people how better things will be if they just vote for him. 200 million in the bank and it was all loving wasted.
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Nov 20, 2021 05:57
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Jaxyon posted:I like how you're just rolling past lying about key facts. How many of those conservatives are on the run from the police because they stalked and murdered another person that currently posed zero threat to them?
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Nov 20, 2021 06:02
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DarkCrawler posted:So are you an advocate of running with a third party? Because again, if a radical faction taking over the Democratic Party is too hard, how the gently caress will you ever raise a third party? Seems to be that the same obstacles would be there, on top of the actual fact that the "car" not built for this poo poo iis the entire political system of the country instead of the workings of a single party. That's correct, the car is the entire political system
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Nov 20, 2021 06:05
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PhazonLink posted:this post is going to have a bad ending. likely. Two major reasons: 1) it's a common law tradition going back centuries, to the point where Supreme Court caselaw currently regards it as an unwritten requirement of the Sixth Amendment's right to a jury trial 2) some states adopted non-unanimous jury rules during the Jim Crow era because it made it easier to convict black people and acquit white supremacists. Instead of having to get an all-white jury every time, they could settle for just a supermajority of white folks, a much easier condition to meet. Yinlock posted:Except nobody ever actually tries, it's just assumed by default that policy can't possibly earn votes and the only Sensible Pragmatic Choice is to take a deep breath and get more racist If the left knows the secret to electoral success, then they should use it themselves, instead of trying to trade it to centrists and then complaining endlessly when the centrists refuse.
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Nov 20, 2021 06:22
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Framboise posted:i find it strange that i've heard plenty of stories of people getting time for killing people who have broken into their homes and yet this idiot kid travels across state lines and goes to a protest locked and loaded, gets on the wrong end of a gun, and suddenly it's self defense and he walks ACROSS STATE LINES SAY YOU? my god (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 20, 2021 06:23
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:That's correct, the car is the entire political system So no electoral path left? I'm not trying to be callous, but if there is no way for the left to win through democracy than the only path left is revolution, and that's definitely too much to ask of people who largely can't even call a fascist a fascist if they are related to them
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Nov 20, 2021 06:45
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 Solitary for someone preaching actual self-defense (and an actual medic to boot!), freedom for murderers. This tracks.
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Nov 20, 2021 06:46
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Sephyr posted:
Can you post the article link?
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Nov 20, 2021 06:48
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How are u posted:The alternative was the end of democracy in the United States. If you have to vote for a candidate you don't agree with from a party that no longer feels any pressure to be responsive or else democracy ends, it kinda feels like maybe democracy has already ended. How many people voted for Biden because they thought he represented them or would make good faith efforts to achieve their policy goals, and how many voted for Biden based on fear of Trump and resignation that this was the best America could come up with? And where is the pressure for democrats to ever improve when they can keep trotting out 'vote for us or else' until climate change (which the democrats aren't doing poo poo about) cooks us all? You need two viable alternatives to make a meaningful choice, otherwise its just coercion
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Nov 20, 2021 06:53
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Kalit posted:
Do you think he deserved to be gunned down because of this?
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Nov 20, 2021 06:57
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Fister Roboto posted:Do you think he deserved to be gunned down because of this? Honestly, I cannot give a simple yes/no to this question. Not really, but I believe it ending in tragedy was inevitable. And this outcome was better than a huge shootout where even more people died. Obviously, I don't believe in cops being the judge/jury/executioner. However, in this case, I don't see a peaceful outcome. Based on his prior actions/current actions/VICE interview, I believe he 100% would have opened fire at the officers instead of getting arrested. If the feds chose to not attempt to apprehend him, I think this would also be terrible. This could lead to him to commit more murders in the future, as he showed no remorse for this one and thought it was the right thing to do. Kalit fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 07:11
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I can’t speak for what others think the term doomerism means, but to me it’s a form of nihilism: things will never get better so why bother trying? America, by and large is not a democracy. It is a rotten system with white minority rule on its center, where only power-hungry bastards who build political machines of patrimony and influence-peddling remain in power or those who exploit the hate the existence of such a system eventually breeds, be it those on top of the electoral math or not. But it seems that the left largely refuses to recognize what it takes to triumph over such a system, and at least on the elected level engages in a fantasy of American democracy where simply saying the right things gets you power because Americans are deep down nice folk who will vote for social democracy as soon as we'll figure out the right buzzwords to use. Why isn't the left using the literal hundreds.of millions in campaign funding to build machines of its own? Engage in patrimony and influence-peddling? Bribe the voters and key figures? Print out propaganda? It is not like there isn't a historical precedent for this in America specifically, for engaging and organizing.large immigrant or immigrant-descended populations into their orbit through labor organizing and party control over critical subsections of urban areas: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammany_Hall Yeah, they were corrupt as all heck but show me any leftist movement that achieved anything and didn't engage in the same. There is the rural version for contemporary example, and the far right has that on lock. Far left can do the same, only with union halls instead of churches and internet instead of talk radio. Hate and fear, and this time with good cause (though when did the left in America not have one?) . If the FBI had not spent the budget of my own country literally waging war murdering the Black Panthers, civil rights organizations and associated groups, they would have been this for African Americans. And despite some of the rhetoric here, Biden ain't LBJ (a true bastard to the core) and whoever is running the FBI ain't Hoover. Times have changed and so has the face of the potential movement that could be raised by leftists playing it dirty. There is only playing the game, or setting the board on fire and smashing your opponents' face in it, and leftists in America don't seem to be willing to do either. It is this bizarre mix of cynicism where shitlibs have made everything impossible but also almost buddhisr-kind of universal love where each and every Trump supporter isn't clearly a piece of poo poo. It keeps astounding and fascinating me endlessly.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:14
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HonorableTB posted:Can you post the article link? Yeah a modicum of googling shows this “peaceful yoga medic” also had military sniper training, was discharged for going AWOL, constantly posted “slay my political enemies” diatribes, owned a bunch of guns, and recently went to fight for a Kurdish terrorist group. He’s basically a living, breathing red flag.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:15
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Kalit posted:Honestly, I cannot give a simple yes/no to this question. Not really, but I believe it ending in tragedy was inevitable. And this outcome was better than a huge shootout where even more people died. Do you think that you might be buying into the right wing narrative that he was a cold blooded psychopath, and the more general narrative that police exist to protect people? You don't have to think that he was a great guy or even that his actions were justified in order to believe that his killing was unjust.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:25
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Kalit posted:Honestly, I cannot give a simple yes/no to this question. I believe it ending in tragedy was inevitable. Guess we'll never know. Because, ya know, the cops murdered him in the street before any of that had a chance to come up. Seriously dude, none of that matters. The police (at least in theory) have an obligation to use force only as a last resort. Yes, that means they might sometimes get shot because they tried to arrest somebody without immediately gunning them down first. Too loving bad, that's part of being a cop. In a sane country they'd all be in jail right now even if our guy was as unstable as you say because judging guilt and the danger one poses to society is supposed to be what the courts are for.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:25
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Yeah a modicum of googling shows this peaceful yoga medic also had military sniper training, was discharged for going AWOL, constantly posted slay my political enemies diatribes, owned a bunch of guns, and recently went to fight for a Kurdish terrorist group. Hes basically a living, breathing red flag. I suspected something like this to be the case, the selective editing painted too rosy a picture to be realistic as portrayed
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Nov 20, 2021 07:29
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DarkCrawler posted:So no electoral path left? I'm not trying to be callous, but if there is no way for the left to win through democracy than the only path left is revolution, and that's definitely too much to ask of people who largely can't even call a fascist a fascist if they are related to them I don't think there's been a realistic national electoral path for a real left government in my lifetime, no. I don't think that necessarily means violent revolution or bust but if we're really going to get anywhere with things like labor power, I think it would necessarily require dismantling a lot of the system as it exists from the outside rather than trying to participate in a system built to defeat you
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Nov 20, 2021 07:34
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Gumball Gumption posted:What's your point? My point would be that I'd like to be able to trust claims made by the left and not be given obviously doctored viewpoints to make ones own case look better. In the last few pages I've seen at least two such instances and it's making me wonder what else I got real upset about before, was similarly edited.
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Nov 20, 2021 07:49
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His Divine Shadow posted:My point would be that I'd like to be able to trust claims made by the left and not be given obviously doctored viewpoints to make ones own case look better. In the last few pages I've seen at least two such instances and it's making me wonder what else I got real upset about before, was similarly edited. quote:Reinoehl did have a loaded .380 pistol on him when he was killed, but it was found inside his right front pants pocket. Despite that, investigators insist that, based on law enforcement and witness statements, they believe Reinoehl fired the round, was shot by police, and put his gun inside his pants pocket. that's the police's story. which they themselves rate "highly likely"! oh and they can't find the bullet. eeeeeeeeeehhhhhh......
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Nov 20, 2021 07:59
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The idea that a non-electoral path to power is easier than an electoral one….like, if you thought getting people to caucus for you was difficult, I have bad news about getting them to kill and die.
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Nov 20, 2021 08:23
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Fill Baptismal posted:The idea that a non-electoral path to power is easier than an electoral one….like, if you thought getting people to caucus for you was difficult, I have bad news about getting them to kill and die. Nobody but you is talking about difficulty. We're talking about efficacy
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Nov 20, 2021 08:42
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DarkCrawler posted:So are you an advocate of running with a third party? Because again, if a radical faction taking over the Democratic Party is too hard, how the gently caress will you ever raise a third party? Seems to be that the same obstacles would be there, on top of the actual fact that the "car" not built for this poo poo iis the entire political system of the country instead of the workings of a single party. I mean, I don't think the third party left should run presidential candidates, just at the local/state/congressional level. The strategy of being a pressure group within the Dem party seems like a complete and total failure. Who knows if the BBB act will even pass, but it's already cut down to like 90% tax credits and subsidies for health insurance and various other private sector interests. The remaining 10% that could plausibly be labeled social-democratic is maybe they'll lowerthe price of insulin. But probably not If running third party at lower levels isn't an option (and it should be pointed out, this is the "legitimate" option that if you asked a normie liberal they'd tell you to do), and running within the Democratic Party isn't an option, what's left is basically extralegal means I think there's pretty decent opportunity to run third party at the state level. Like take India Walton, on the one hand you can say she lost 60 40 against a write in candidate. But on the other hand you can say she won 40% of the vote as a socialist against a Dem machine on the Dems own strongest terrain icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 08:54
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DarkCrawler posted:So no electoral path left? I'm not trying to be callous, but if there is no way for the left to win through democracy than the only path left is revolution, and that's definitely too much to ask of people who largely can't even call a fascist a fascist if they are related to them Yep that's correct. There is no national electoral path out of here and material conditions haven't deteriorated enough to generate uprisings.
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Nov 20, 2021 09:08
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Fill Baptismal posted:The idea that a non-electoral path to power is easier than an electoral one….like, if you thought getting people to caucus for you was difficult, I have bad news about getting them to kill and die. Honestly I don't think either is really possible right now. The Revolution can't happen right now because there aren't the guns or organizational infrastructure to make it happen. You are correct when you say people aren't willing to kill and die right now (I'm certainly not) and the reasons for this hesitance are pretty understandable. Meanwhile working withing the system is also impossible because while small victories can happen, the system is fundamentally set up to keep certain forms of change off the table to us. Plus, those running things will inevitably change the rules of the game the second serious change seems likely. Hell, I honestly don't think actual assassinations or military actions are off the table if things get heated enough ("the Bernie bros are terrorists I tells ya!"). Right now I think the only real paths forward are: a) Educating people so that when an opportunity for change arises people get mad at the right political actors b) Organize along labor lines (read: unionize) to negotiate better conditions with the capital class while we wait for a crisis to make change possible. Hopefully by the time the crisis comes (which better be before climate change hits in earnest because otherwise the planet is hosed) the left will have used the experience gained from unionizing to mobilize into a more formidable political force to push for a real change in the way things work and who gets to be in charge.
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Nov 20, 2021 09:08
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icantfindaname posted:I think there's pretty decent opportunity to run third party at the state level. Like take India Walton, on the one hand you can say she lost 60 40 against a write in candidate. But on the other hand you can say she won 40% of the vote as a socialist against a Dem machine on the Dems own strongest terrain You can also say that she lost by that percentage in a race with the typical dismal turnout of mayoral races in one-party towns, and that a candidate who excited people/campaigned better could cinch it. It wasn't some case where the well-connected opponent generated some insurmountable lead: 80%+ of the electorate just stayed home.
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Nov 20, 2021 09:18
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https://t.co/8EudLQNj07?amp=1 I assume this means SCOTUS is going to decide the Texas abortion law is unconstitutional because of the "Constitutional Calvinball" aspect that dodged judicial review, but there will be zero mention of abortion. That way, SCOTUS can claim they're not just partisan hacks, generate various fawning editorials in the NY Times, and then gut Roe V Wade in December, all while preventing a progressive state from passing a Texas-style law that targets gun owners or large corporations instead of pregnant women.
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Nov 20, 2021 09:32
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skylined! posted:Some reasonably good news in the courts today. Literally Al Qaida!
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Nov 20, 2021 09:48
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HonorableTB posted:This is a good point. I think it can only be countered by the hypothetical candidate's pro-poor and pro-working class messaging resonating enough that their popularity and publicity gives them some insulation from retaliation. Leftists who do this often get assassinated...
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Nov 20, 2021 10:27
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https://twitter.com/RepSwalwell/status/1461763815977242625 do you understand just how pathetic you are? This is not a commitment to non-violence, this is a commitment to cowardice.
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Nov 20, 2021 11:09
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Kalit posted:How many of those conservatives are on the run from the police because they stalked and murdered another person that currently posed zero threat to them? Gonna go out on a limb here and say that's largely in part because when a right-wing nutjob murders someone, the cops are off on the side cheering them on, and that's when the nutjob in question isn't also the cop.
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Nov 20, 2021 11:42
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HonorableTB posted:Can you post the article link? My bad. Here it is. https://hillreporter.com/florida-anarchist-gets-nearly-4-years-in-prison-115638
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Nov 20, 2021 14:52
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Yeah a modicum of googling shows this “peaceful yoga medic” also had military sniper training, was discharged for going AWOL, constantly posted “slay my political enemies” diatribes, owned a bunch of guns, and recently went to fight for a Kurdish terrorist group. He’s basically a living, breathing red flag. These make him more deserving of a longer prison sentence than the actual murderer he was being compared to, or the participants in the attempted coup he was decrying?
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Nov 20, 2021 15:17
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the_steve posted:Gonna go out on a limb here and say that's largely in part because when a right-wing nutjob murders someone, the cops are off on the side cheering them on, and that's when the nutjob in question isn't also the cop. So not even 1 specific example when you were insinuating that a lot of conservatives in Portland are just as much of a threat as Reinoehl?
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Nov 20, 2021 15:17
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DarkCrawler posted:So are you an advocate of running with a third party? Because again, if a radical faction taking over the Democratic Party is too hard, how the gently caress will you ever raise a third party? Seems to be that the same obstacles would be there, on top of the actual fact that the "car" not built for this poo poo iis the entire political system of the country instead of the workings of a single party. Ross Perot got close and in hindsight I kind of wish Bernie had ran as an independent.
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Nov 20, 2021 15:40
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Kalit posted:How many of those conservatives are on the run from the police because they stalked and murdered another person that currently posed zero threat to them? How many police are employed in Portland? Oh wait you said on the run for stalking and murdering nvm.
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Nov 20, 2021 15:41
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Yeah a modicum of googling shows this “peaceful yoga medic” also had military sniper training, was discharged for going AWOL, constantly posted “slay my political enemies” diatribes, owned a bunch of guns, and recently went to fight for a Kurdish terrorist group. He’s basically a living, breathing red flag. Yeah it's really interesting how this stuff in his past is all super relevant but Kyle Rittenhouse verbally fantasizing about murdering innocent people in front of a drugstore two weeks prior to actually killing people was ruled to be completely irrelevant and forbidden for the jury to even know about.
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Nov 20, 2021 15:46
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Kalit posted:So not even 1 specific example when you were insinuating that a lot of conservatives in Portland are just as much of a threat as Reinoehl? Some hicks stalked and murdered a jogger in Georgia and the cops gave them the thumbs up. They're only on trial now because one of them posted his snuff film of the incident on the internet
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Nov 20, 2021 15:46
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Kalit posted:So not even 1 specific example when you were insinuating that a lot of conservatives in Portland are just as much of a threat as Reinoehl? Are you seriously going to pretend that the cops don't ignore right-wingers who are every bit as/more dangerous than he was? They took the fucker who shot up a black church to Burger King on the way to prison for gently caress's sakes. And no, I'm not going to give you a detailed list of people from Portland because I don't loving live anywhere near Portland, and unless they manage to get some sort of national profile, none of us are ever going to hear about them no matter how many red flags they've got flying, so gently caress off with that disingenuous attempt-at-a-gotcha bullshit.
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Nov 20, 2021 15:47
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Kalit posted:How many of those conservatives are on the run from the police because they stalked and murdered another person that currently posed zero threat to them? Having a tacit understanding that the police won't show up and murder you in a driveway with an almost comical excess of force because you killed someone helps keep you from running from the police. After all, we are comparing this situation to a kid who wished he had a gun so he could shoot alleged shoplifters (who iirc were innocent but I don't know), then later got a gun, brought it to a place with alleged shoplifters and then shot said alleged shoplifters. Surely if we're treating both the same the cops should have just murdered Rittenhouse too, right? Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Nov 20, 2021 |
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Nov 20, 2021 15:50
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