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Sedisp posted:So simple just start a third party that is able to challenge entrenched power bloc with support from the media. Who cares about party? Run candidates! Whether they're primary opponents or third-party challengers hardly matters. But if the leftist can't even pose a serious electoral threat to an ultra-conservative Dem, then why would we expect the Dems to adopt leftism for the sake of winning elections? It's not enough to prove that centrism loses elections - we need to prove that leftism wins elections. And we need to keep doing it again and again and again until the Dems are just as terrified of the left as the GOP was terrified of the Tea Party in 2012.
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Nov 22, 2021 01:48
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Main Paineframe posted:Who cares about party? Run candidates! Whether they're primary opponents or third-party challengers hardly matters. But if the leftist can't even pose a serious electoral threat to an ultra-conservative Dem, then why would we expect the Dems to adopt leftism for the sake of winning elections? What do you do when the leftist candidates constantly face bullshit like recalls supported by democrats?
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Nov 22, 2021 01:50
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HonorableTB posted:General strikes, crippling infrastructure and transportation through occupation, and a legitimate face to the movement that diverts attention away from the rest. The “face” of that plan will be poor people who can’t get food and medicine, can’t get gas, and can’t get to work.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:05
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Main Paineframe posted:Who cares about party? Run candidates! Whether they're primary opponents or third-party challengers hardly matters. But if the leftist can't even pose a serious electoral threat to an ultra-conservative Dem, then why would we expect the Dems to adopt leftism for the sake of winning elections? Remember the Tea Party was an astroturfed movement and not something organic. But at the same time everyone constantly claiming "all Dems need to do is lose bad enough to the right and they'll swing left" keep forgetting that this doesn't work. The 1980s led to Third Way Neoliberalism, instead of a leftward swing. 2016 led to some leftward movement but only because the DSA actually won races within the party, and thus that is the tactic that produces results, not accelerationism-lite.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:08
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Main Paineframe posted:If the Dems keep losing to right-wing opponents, they're not going to move left, they're going to move right. That's fine. Then they're going to keep losing to Republicans until they ultimately lose all legitimacy and dissolve, thus removing the political heat sink they function as and forcing people to look at more direct methods of advocating for change. Though I have to say, I find this dynamic fascinating: 1) Democrats win with centrists causing them to move to the right 2) Democrats lose with centrists causing them to move to the right. Weird! It's almost like they're a conservative party looking for any excuse to abandon left-wing principles and chase donor money.  quote:To force the Dems left, they need to start losing to left-wing opponents. There's no better way to demonstrate that the voters want a leftist than to run leftists who do a better job of ousting centrists than the opposing party does. I support the idea of primarying conservative dems but that alone isn't enough. It's important that blue dogs lose in general elections because A) They end up acting as barriers to change that are hard for normal people to understand since they operate within a party ostensibly for workers, minorities, and the poor. This demoralizes voters and makes electing anybody left of center harder down the line. B) It reinforces centrist's main talking point which is that they're electable. Denying them this undermines their legitimacy which makes alternatives more palatable. C) They're ghouls and gently caress them on general principle. Have some self respect, people! Main Paineframe posted:Who cares about party? Run candidates! Whether they're primary opponents or third-party challengers hardly matters. But if the leftist can't even pose a serious electoral threat to an ultra-conservative Dem, then why would we expect the Dems to adopt leftism for the sake of winning elections? Yes! Just run candidates! Against a donor class that will fund your opponents to the tune of millions! With a hostile media that will slander you the whole way while you have little ability to fight back! In a system where the rules will change the second it looks like you're gaining momentum! Against a party that will actively destroy it's own institutions and power to ensure you can't use them even if you do win! So simple! readingatwork fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 02:10
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Angry_Ed posted:Remember the Tea Party was an astroturfed movement and not something organic.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:10
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Main Paineframe posted:Who cares about party? Run candidates! Whether they're primary opponents or third-party challengers hardly matters. But if the leftist can't even pose a serious electoral threat to an ultra-conservative Dem, then why would we expect the Dems to adopt leftism for the sake of winning elections? You cannot wither power from an entrenched power if you make sure you vote for them in every election. If your strategy is to get leftist ideas in electorally with or without democrats then you have to accept that sometimes you can't support the democrats even if that means a republican wins. You are correct dems losing will not push dems left dems will never move left. Your conclusion however simply doesn't work. You cannot fight an opponent that you tell people to support when you lose against them. Sedisp fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 02:10
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FlamingLiberal posted:Right, and now you have the terrible centrists trying to blame the progressives for bad election results from a few weeks ago. Even though they are more culpable for that than anything the progressives have done. Weird how the news in my area blamed centrists instead, almost like this isn't a universal thing.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:18
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Yeah; there's a reason "vote blue no matter who" became a trope as the Dem party moved further right over the years. Combined with "this is the most important election ever against the most evil republican ever" it's erased the fact that the party is the most secure it's ever been in its ability to spurn the left without recrimination, and they even have the nerve to further blame the left for any & all problems the party faces. That's why I've come to the conclusion that the only answer is to spurn voting for Democrats at the federal level--not out of accelerationism, but out of pragmatism. In other news, looks like Beto once again is tilting at windmills, although it's too early to say for sure.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:22
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Willa Rogers posted:Yeah; there's a reason "vote blue no matter who" became a trope as the Dem party moved further right over the years. Combined with "this is the most important election ever against the most evil republican ever" it's erased the fact that the party is the most secure it's ever been in its ability to spurn the left without recrimination, and they even have the nerve to further blame the left for any & all problems the party faces. I doubt those McConoughey numbers would hold up through an actual election cycle, but I wouldn't be opposed to him trying. I guess some of the Dems getting gerrymandered out of seat ought to give it a go in the primary as well
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Nov 22, 2021 02:29
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They believe they found the attack vehicle parked near a university. https://twitter.com/CBS58/status/1462576129299128327?s=20
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Nov 22, 2021 02:30
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The Glumslinger posted:I doubt those McConoughey numbers would hold up through an actual election cycle, but I wouldn't be opposed to him trying. I guess some of the Dems getting gerrymandered out of seat ought to give it a go in the primary as well I actually think independent candidates like him could successfully run via transpartisan third parties, and that this might be the key to transcending the hellworld of the two-party system. Of course, the parties will unite with each other to do everything they can to such challengers; it took Perot's run for them to take presidential debates away from the League of Women Voters & otherwise shut out threats to their hegemony.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:37
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Willa Rogers posted:That's why I've come to the conclusion that the only answer is to spurn voting for Democrats at the federal level--not out of accelerationism, but out of pragmatism. But there are federal programs that some people need to survive that can't be funded by state and local government alone, with some state governments actively hostile to the mission of them. There has to be another way. I would like a better targeted protest movement. Their social lives and recreational activities need to be a constant difficulty. Direct action.
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Nov 22, 2021 02:58
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Nonsense posted:They believe they found the attack vehicle parked near a university. Well, murder is legal in Wisconsin now
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Nov 22, 2021 03:26
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isnt WI infact a state where they have that bullshit runover those urban feral protester laws?
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Nov 22, 2021 03:38
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Willa Rogers posted:Yeah; there's a reason "vote blue no matter who" became a trope as the Dem party moved further right over the years. Combined with "this is the most important election ever against the most evil republican ever" it's erased the fact that the party is the most secure it's ever been in its ability to spurn the left without recrimination, and they even have the nerve to further blame the left for any & all problems the party faces. Exactly. The problem with VBNMW is that if the Republicans are truly the existential danger that Democrats paint them as for fundraising (and they are), then they don't act like it. A party, or at least leadership, that understood that danger would be using everything in its power to expand voting, pack the court/neuter the SCOTUS, protect women's reproductive freedom, and helping as many people as they can. Instead, we get months and months of talk, bills being pared down to nothing, and pandering to gutless corporate centrists and attacking their left flank while Republicans gerrymander their way to permanent/semi-permanent minority power. It feels like an almost exact replay of 2009/2010 and the people who will be hurt the most by it won't be the elites in Congress, but most or all of us. The change we need will come in spite of, not because of, the Democrats. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 03:42
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readingatwork posted:That's fine. Then they're going to keep losing to Republicans until they ultimately lose all legitimacy and dissolve, thus removing the political heat sink they function as and forcing people to look at more direct methods of advocating for change. I mean you're right on many levels, but also when you're up against a hyper-optimized grift machine run by super myopic people I'm of the opinion that it's not nearly as durable as it appears.
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Nov 22, 2021 03:43
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PhazonLink posted:isnt WI infact a state where they have that bullshit runover those urban feral protester laws? The Dancing Grannies aren't protestors, though. Maybe it's someone following DarkCrawler's advice to cut fascists from their lives by any means necessary, although we don't know how the grannies voted.  Spoke Lee posted:But there are federal programs that some people need to survive that can't be funded by state and local government alone, with some state governments actively hostile to the mission of them. There has to be another way. I would like a better targeted protest movement. Their social lives and recreational activities need to be a constant difficulty. Direct action. Yes, those are the hostage dogs that will be killed if we don't vote for Democrats. I don't blame you for voting out of self-interest & lesser-evilism. I'm doing the same, by refusing to vote for a party that deems only the very poor can receive healthcare on the government's dime without risking medical bankruptcy (which has risen since the ACA passed a decade ago). I'm on Medicare myself (which has been ravaged by both parties through privatization), but I've lost friends who couldn't afford medical care while waiting the four years it took for the expanded Medicaid to kick in. And they were the "lucky ones" to live in expansion states. Sucks that they're dead now. eta: My direct action is not voting for my abusers. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 03:45
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What do you do if your partner’s father, who raised them alone and supported them and is a positive presence in their life, is a Republican? Are you ready to ditch your partner and their family?
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Nov 22, 2021 03:49
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Willa Rogers posted:I don't blame you for voting out of self-interest & lesser-evilism. I'm doing the same, by refusing to vote That seems like you're doing the exact opposite actually 
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Nov 22, 2021 03:59
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RBA Starblade posted:That seems like you're doing the exact opposite actually Not when I vote for third-party candidates. you edited this out, for some strange reason: for a party that deems only the very poor can receive healthcare on the government's dime without risking medical bankruptcy (which has risen since the ACA passed a decade ago).
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Nov 22, 2021 04:00
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mawarannahr posted:What do you do if your partner’s father, who raised them alone and supported them and is a positive presence in their life, is a Republican? Are you ready to ditch your partner and their family? In my case: If they are voting republican, they are directly voting against what my partner stands for, and I suspect we'd cut ties on that alone. The reality is: If your parent is voting for someone who is harming you by voting for people who would strip you of your rights, they are not a "positive influence", or at least no longer are. And given what the GOP stands for right now, who it aligns itself with: Either that person is wholly ignorant or purposefully ignoring the very real hate and bigotry. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 04:02
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CommieGIR posted:In my case: If they are voting republican, they are directly voting against what my partner stands for, and I suspect we'd cut ties on that alone. The reality is: If your parent is voting for someone who is harming you by voting for people who would strip you of your rights, they are not a "positive influence" Someone could absolutely be a positive influence in your life, profoundly so and still be someone who every couple years goes to their local middle school and votes republican. If your vote for president defines your value as a person a lot of people here have to answer for voting for a rapist. Did you vote Biden?
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Nov 22, 2021 04:09
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PhazonLink posted:isnt WI infact a state where they have that bullshit runover those urban feral protester laws? These weren't protesters, and the guy who did this is about to have no friends. Even the most vile organizations tend to oppose running over children in a Thanksgiving parade.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:14
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CommieGIR posted:In my case: If they are voting republican, they are directly voting against what my partner stands for, and I suspect we'd cut ties on that alone. The reality is: If your parent is voting for someone who is harming you by voting for people who would strip you of your rights, they are not a "positive influence", or at least no longer are. And given what the GOP stands for right now, who it aligns itself with: Either that person is wholly ignorant or purposefully ignoring the very real hate and bigotry. As someone who has relatives with lovely politics: LMAO no you wouldn’t. You’d do what everyone else on the planet does and avoid politics altogether during family gatherings before going home to roll your eyes about their awful opinions behind closed doors. Trust me, this is not exactly an uncommon situation and most people get by without needing to resort to drastic measures. Important reminder before people lose their poo poo: Just having garbage politics doesn’t make someone abusive. Most people have terrible politics and just keep it to themselves. By all means dump someone if they are calling you a harlot for having pink hair or whatever.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:19
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Ciprian Maricon posted:If your vote for president defines your value as a person a lot of people here have to answer for voting for a rapist. Did you vote Biden? Mod hat on: We are not doing this. Don't even loving start readingatwork posted:As someone who has relatives with lovely politics: LMAO no you wouldn’t. You’d do what everyone else on the planet does and avoid politics altogether during family gatherings before going home to roll your eyes about their awful opinions behind closed doors. Trust me, this is not exactly an uncommon situation and most people get by without needing to resort to drastic measures. We did. And we have. So: thanks for making assumptions about what we will and won't do.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:21
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Dignity Van Houten posted:These weren't protesters, and the guy who did this is about to have no friends. Even the most vile organizations tend to oppose running over children in a Thanksgiving parade. Also apparently the guy in the car was fleeing the scene of another crime scene and drove into the parade route to try and get away from it. So if they're responsible for that previous crime too, then they're turbofucked.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:21
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CommieGIR posted:We did. And we have. So: thanks for making assumptions about what we will and won't do. I have to say, if you cut ties solely based on them voting for a Republican, than that seems extremely lovely. I hope that was only a contributing factor.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:28
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CommieGIR posted:Mod hat on: We are not doing this. Don't even loving start Why? Why is it OK for you to post that a loving, caring, attentive, and supportive parents contribution to their children's lives is completely undone because they vote for bad people and bad policies but I cannot ask what it says about you when you vote for people who also do bad things and have bad policies? Republicans are marred forever for their electoral calculus but you cannot be questioned on yours?
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Nov 22, 2021 04:28
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assuming its a white guy, its white priviliage as gently caress to just have it in the driveway and not even try to hide it.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:28
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CommieGIR posted:Mod hat on: We are not doing this. Don't even loving start Sorry for assuming. In my defense you framed it as a hypothetical. I assume there’s more to the story than they voted for McCain once in 08 so I won’t speculate on the matter further. But I *do* stand by the idea that severing ties based on voting patterns alone is a bit much.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:30
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Willa Rogers posted:Not when I vote for third-party candidates. I interpreted your whole post as if you didn't vote at all so I only included the part that was relevant, but in that case, it is the same!
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Nov 22, 2021 04:36
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Kalit posted:I have to say, if you cut ties solely based on them voting for a Republican, than that seems extremely lovely. I hope that was only a contributing factor. There is nothing lovely about cutting ties with members of a white supremacist party
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Nov 22, 2021 04:43
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They have a suspect in custody in Waukesha, just heard it over the scanner
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Nov 22, 2021 04:47
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PhazonLink posted:assuming its a white guy, its white priviliage as gently caress to just have it in the driveway and not even try to hide it. I doubt it was his house.
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Nov 22, 2021 04:48
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CommieGIR posted:In my case: If they are voting republican, they are directly voting against what my partner stands for, and I suspect we'd cut ties on that alone. The reality is: If your parent is voting for someone who is harming you by voting for people who would strip you of your rights, they are not a "positive influence", or at least no longer are. And given what the GOP stands for right now, who it aligns itself with: Either that person is wholly ignorant or purposefully ignoring the very real hate and bigotry. That seems completely over the top, as is your warning not to go down a path that makes you uncomfortable, but whatever. If you can’t understand why someone might go on walks with and have dinner at the house of someone who rescued them from an abusive household, supported them financially, helped them through a divorce from an abusive partner, and should instead cut ties because they do something as utterly meaningless as voting for a Republican in Washington state, I feel like you don’t understand the complexity of human relations at all. mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 04:57
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mawarannahr posted:That seems completely over the top, as is your warning not to go down a path that makes you uncomfortable, but whatever. If you can’t understand why someone might go on walks with and have dinner at the house of someone who rescued them from an abusive household, and should instead cut ties because they do something as utterly meaningless as voting for a Republican in Washington state, I feel like you don’t understand the complexity of human relations at all. Voting for a white supremacist party is "utterly meaningless" and totally something that good people do, right? Either they are ignorant of the true agenda of the GOP or else they know exactly what they're doing. Spare me.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:00
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Trazz posted:white supremacist party Here in Virginia those white supremacists just elected a black woman as the lieutenant governor and a Cuban as the attorney general.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:03
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Not everyone who’s voted for a Republican is a full-on Nazi. Lots of them are just kind of dumb or don’t know anything about the GOP beyond “they’re the party of fiscal responsibility right?” There’s also a lot of people who just don’t know anything about progressive ideas because nobody’s bothered to explain it to them which makes them susceptible to right wing talking points. It’s a lot more complicated than just “all Republican voters are evil”.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:06
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Trazz posted:Voting for a white supremacist party is "utterly meaningless" and totally something that good people do, right? An individual voting for a Republican in a blue state is meaningless to me. I also don’t hold voting for democrats against singular persons for the bad stuff democrats do. It doesn’t matter much to me when both parties are equally committed to loving with the general neighborhood of where I come from. I also condemn but try to look past the fascist indoctrination people undergo in my home country because that covers practically everyone I know who isn’t Kurdish or Armenian because I have to maintain relations with some of them and I even like or have even loved them (and sometimes you can change their minds!). I don’t think that makes me a fascist, but if you want to think that about everyone who doesn’t  , you do you.PS: don’t underestimate ignorance and the power of propaganda.
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Nov 22, 2021 05:07
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