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Best Friends posted:Most dems supported Obama's foreign policy, which has been torturing and starving the people of Yemen ever since, and killed who knows how many innocent people by our drones and kill teams. Why should a reasonable, moral person not cut all the dems out of their lives just as they've surely cut out republicans? Republicans aren't getting into relationship-terminating arguments over foreign policy, they're getting into these arguments because their loved ones found out that they're bigoted internet trolls or whatever
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Nov 22, 2021 20:29
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I feel like a pretty useful metric is "people should feel culpable for what the politicians they support do if they had a meaningful chance to support politicians who would have done something different."
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Nov 22, 2021 20:29
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misadventurous posted:I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed “both sides are equally bad” actually being stated in anywhere near those terms by someone critical of the Democrats in any version of this thread. It’s reductive, a thought-terminating cliche, usually thrown at someone who just gave a detailed and accurate list of comparably loving bad things the D party has done that should at least get you thinking “huh, well maybe they’re almost as bad” I've seen it a bunch of times. In older versions of this thread. Then I challenge it, and they admit it's not true. It's a motte and bailey. Same thing with "voting is worthless". When challenged, it becomes "well voting locally can be effective I really just meant for president"
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Nov 22, 2021 20:30
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Trazz posted:Uncle Roy isn't being invited back to Thanksgiving dinner because of "policy," he's being uninvited because he called your nephew a transgender communist for getting vaccinated This seems like a reasonable reason to sever someone, but your argument is that the mere act of voting GOP is exactly the same as doing this which is just completely asinine to say.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:30
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Trazz posted:Every time I arrive at that conclusion it's because I realize that a person's politics and/or religion is nothing more than a smokescreen for their abusiveness Well right but that's because that person is abusive. Like what I'm saying is its fine to cut a racist out of your life who happens to vote republican, but it's probably not okay to arrive at the conclusion a person a serial abuser because you saw them wear a cross one time. Which isn't what you're saying but it's the kind of leap a lot of people make itt. People build identities around weird stuff and a lot of people have aspects of their identities that are wholly unexamined and not a sign of deep set beliefs. It is absolutely an expression of privilege that someone might, for instance, might vote for a republican and never really think about the wider network of crazies in the party or the party stance on lgbtq or whatever. But it isn't necessarily a sign of awful positions on critical issues. What I'm saying is that if a person is toxic they'll let you know, you don't have to decode it.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:33
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I believe this is the guy Trump endorsed https://twitter.com/pittsburghpg/status/1462826557752451074?s=21
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Nov 22, 2021 20:38
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camoseven posted:This seems like a reasonable reason to sever someone, but your argument is that the mere act of voting GOP is exactly the same as doing this which is just completely asinine to say. I'd only buy this if the person who votes GOP is completely oblivious and ignorant, just takes their ballot and marks whoever has the "R" next to their name without even looking at it Otherwise, nah, they know exactly what they're doing, and they can go gently caress themselves Mendrian posted:What I'm saying is that if a person is toxic they'll let you know, you don't have to decode it. On the contrary, conservatives and Christians are constantly hiding their toxicity behind religious/conservative beliefs, and frequently present a front of being a good, moral person
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Nov 22, 2021 20:41
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Trazz posted:Every time I arrive at that conclusion it's because I realize that a person's politics and/or religion is nothing more than a smokescreen for their abusiveness Spontaneously cutting family, parents, etc. out of your life to punish them for having the wrong views according to your personal perspective can also be an abusive act that's being smokescreened by political rationalizations. hth.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:43
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camoseven posted:This seems like a reasonable reason to sever someone, but your argument is that the mere act of voting GOP is exactly the same as doing this which is just completely asinine to say. The mere act of voting GOP makes doing that inevitable. Its a continually radicalizing organization who's policy is rooted in nationalism, racism, misogyny, anti-LGBTQ hatred and completely unfettered economic exploitation to the point of neo-feudalism. There are two kinds of people that support that, people who believe the same or people who don't think those things are deal-breakers. Because the organization is continually radicalizing, that means you can't remain part of it without eventually being indoctrinated into those sentiments yourself. This isn't some academic abstraction. Donald Trump attempted to ban trans people from military service and deny entry to anyone from a Muslim-majority nation. He said he was going to do those things before he was elected and and then he did them after he was elected. Once that happens you don't get to say "Well, I vote Republican because Democrats just don't care about rural america and blue-collar jobs, I don't hate anybody and I don't believe they do either."
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Nov 22, 2021 20:43
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Netflix fired one of the two trans employees that were upset about the company's response to the Chapel special and organized the employee protest. The other trans employee involved reached a settlement where they withdrew their complaint and agreed to resign. https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1462868001263435776
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Nov 22, 2021 20:44
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Jaxyon posted:I've seen it a bunch of times. In older versions of this thread. Then I challenge it, and they admit it's not true. It's a motte and bailey. That might have happened or it might not, but so many people spend times exaggerating arguments they remember so that they can make arguments about "this thread" that I don't believe you.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:46
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:That might have happened or it might not, but so many people spend times exaggerating arguments they remember so that they can make arguments about "this thread" that I don't believe you. As you shouldn't, since I didn't bother to provide a quote showing it. You absolutely should not believe me. That's a great point and a very smart one you have made.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:48
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Spontaneously cutting family, parents, etc. out of your life to punish them for having the wrong views according to your personal perspective can also be an abusive act that's being smokescreened by political rationalizations. hth. This is getting petty: NOBODY, not your parents, not your neighbors, is owed your time. The idea that voting for Trump was "Just politics" yet ignoring the effects that Trump entailed, the things he said, those things were also abusive and hateful. Especially if you, say, approach them about it and then downplay or outright attack something like LGBT rights or promote Xenophobia or Racism. The idea that you owe them time of day or relationship is laughable.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:48
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:
Any Party that isn't actively courting white supremacists, fascists, and tacitly going along with massive voter suppression and the overturning of free elections. No ethical person votes Republican post 2016. At least with Dems, individuals can make the harm reduction argument.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:48
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:That might have happened or it might not, but so many people spend times exaggerating arguments they remember so that they can make arguments about "this thread" that I don't believe you. I mean I'm brand spankin' new here and I've already seen "Everyone in DC is fascist and so are you if you vote for them." poo poo was just a few pages ago, and I will dig for it if you want.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:49
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:No ethical person votes Republican post 2016. At least with Dems, individuals can make the harm reduction argument. Methadone is a hell of a lot better than injecting heroin straight into the veins of your dick because all the others collapsed.
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Nov 22, 2021 20:53
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Mendrian posted:But framing the discourse as - "I cut X out of my life because they are a Nazi/white supremacist" means a very specific thing and while I don't care really what a person does with their life or how they choose to narrate their story, one should be careful how you're arriving at this conclusion. Agreed. It takes a kindergartner's level of Bad Guys vs. Good Guys to decide that everyone voting Republican is a racist fascist who wants to imprison those with opposing views. (And that's leaving aside some liberals' own tendencies toward racism & fascism, or their support of politicians with racist & fascist views & actions.) eta: Sanguinia posted:Voting republican isn't about voting republican, its about the fact that voting republican is just one symptom of the toxic american disease where believing in hatred and expressing publicly and vocally it becomes your entire personality. Oh, the irony, which I'm assuming is unintended. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 20:54
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Phelddagrif posted:I'm not familiar with Powell, but from a quick search it looks like he's a career Treasury worker who was first appointed as a Fed governor by Obama, and has been praised for the Fed's actions in response to Covid. Could someone more knowledgeable than I explain what actions he's taken that mean he shouldn't be re-nominated? Powell was a private equity guy before he started working for the government. I think his re-nomination is fine, midterms are coming up and they don't want to have the pols yelling at Brainard to hike rates b/c of inflation during confirmation hearings. plogo fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 20:56
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CommieGIR posted:This is getting petty: NOBODY, not your parents, not your neighbors, is owed your time. The idea that voting for Trump was "Just politics" yet ignoring the effects that Trump entailed, the things he said, those things were also abusive and hateful. Especially if you, say, approach them about it and then downplay or outright attack something like LGBT rights or promote Xenophobia or Racism. Ostracizing your family is social violence that causes trauma and shouldn't be undertaken cavalierly. There are times when it's the healthier option, or necessary for a variety of reasons, but there's a cost in emotional energy and social capital for people who go this route.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:04
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socialsecurity posted:Then you haven't been reading much "Biden is worse then Trump" was a very common thing in the General Election thread last year. See, this is the sort of generalized, amorphous hostility you show up with that I mentioned upthread. Just argue against their point instead of going "Nuh-uh, someone posted something over a year ago that made me angry and I'm still stewing over it!" because that's not really an effective rebuttal to a particular point made by a particular person.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:07
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Ostracizing your family is social violence that causes trauma and shouldn't be undertaken cavalierly. There are times when it's the healthier option, or necessary for a variety of reasons, but there's a cost in emotional energy and social capital for people who go this route. Ostracizing your kids because they are LGBT or Leftist also causes trauma by voting in a man who may roll back their rights or attacking their marriages or their healthcare rights (as a woman). Eventually you gotta decide to do what's best for you, not for your extended family. Again, you do not owe family anything.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:07
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I think that deciding who to cut out of your life or not is a personal decision. You don't have to agree with someone else's choice, but you should respect it. There are so many different factors at play that just making a blanket "you should cut out anyone who voted Republican" statement is simply not practical for many people. I'm OK with shaming people for their political views, but I think that shaming someone for not shaming someone else for their views is a step too far.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:09
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Ostracizing your family is social violence that causes trauma and shouldn't be undertaken cavalierly. There are times when it's the healthier option, or necessary for a variety of reasons, but there's a cost in emotional energy and social capital for people who go this route. Nah this is ridiculous. Blood family just is about who jizzed where decades ago, the meaning we've attached to it is basically just another construct of patriarchy and a convenient way for capital to make workers raise more workers.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:11
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For people going 'cut out all people who vote Republican, they're evil', I want an answer to a question. Let's say your governor's race was between Mike DeWine and a non-sexpest Andrew Cuomo, so just the Andrew Cuomo who profits off covering up COVID deaths. Would you cut someone out from your life for voting DeWine?
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Nov 22, 2021 21:15
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camoseven posted:This seems like a reasonable reason to sever someone, but your argument is that the mere act of voting GOP is exactly the same as doing this which is just completely asinine to say. I think the point is that calling someone a transgender communist for getting vaccinated correlates pretty strongly with voting Republican, or being a vocal Trump supporter. rare Magic card l00k posted:For people going 'cut out all people who vote Republican, they're evil', I want an answer to a question. Is anybody actually saying this? I cut out most of the Republican voters in my life because they were actively bigoted towards me, or because they couldn't stop screaming about how masks were muzzles and vaccines were poison. I'd have done that of they were Dems or Greens or whatever. But, for some weird reason, they weren't! It's a crazy coincidence I'm sure. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 21:15
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If all Republicans are fascists then Biden should really be removing them from any seats of power when he has the chance but keeps choosing not to. This seems more important and like a more important discussion about the idea of "All Republicans are fascists" than severing with your family or not. Who cares about severing from your fascist enabling relatives when the elected officials of your own party do the same.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:19
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Jaxyon posted:As you shouldn't, since I didn't bother to provide a quote showing it. You absolutely should not believe me.  FLIPADELPHIA posted:Any Party that isn't actively courting white supremacists, fascists, and tacitly going along with massive voter suppression and the overturning of free elections. These are all over the place as far as setting a consistent moral standard. Like I don't think, for instance, that voter suppression is as serious a crime as direct material support for the Palestinian or Yemeni genocides, or that overturning free elections is less reprehensible when it's done to countries outside our borders
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Nov 22, 2021 21:21
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rare Magic card l00k posted:For people going 'cut out all people who vote Republican, they're evil', I want an answer to a question. Depends, how much is Mike DeWine talking about how much a threat my trans students are to my female students if they're allowed to play sports with them or use the bathroom they want, thereby encouraging violence and discrimination against them? If the answer is "more than none," then yes, those people can get hosed.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:23
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It’s all just ridiculous posturing. “I refuse to eat turkey with my racist Uncle,” I smugly type on my cell phone made from slave labor. “I’m helping!”
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Nov 22, 2021 21:23
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I suppose I should’ve just ostracized my partner instead of helping them care for their terminally ill Republican voting father but I guess I’m just not that good a person.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:24
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One of the problems with the American left is that we allow ourselves - in general, not just people in this thread - to get drawn into theoretical, navel gaze-y arguments like "Dems bad?". That's not a criticism of anyone in particular but an observation. What is actually being done to advance leftism and leftist ideas? You can be the "purest" leftist with no GOP friends and family in the world, but that doesn't matter a happy goddamn if leftism isn't getting exposure in the real world. I'm trying to take my own advice. I joined the DSA in the wake of August 12th but because I'm not much of a joiner, I hadn't done much with my local chapter. Slowly, I'm getting involved with them. Watching Non Compete and Second Thought on youtube and getting depressed and angry about the state of the country just doesn't cut it anymore. I read a really good quote on this lately: "Rather than accepting the things I can't change, I'm working to change the things I can't accept".
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Nov 22, 2021 21:26
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Willa Rogers posted:See, this is the sort of generalized, amorphous hostility you show up with that I mentioned upthread. He said a thing wasn't said, I said it was, where am I not arguing against their point? If you have such a problem with me just block me as I cannot argue with you on any level as the_steve usually comes out to probe me when I do.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:27
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I suppose I should’ve just ostracized my partner instead of helping them care for their terminally ill Republican voting father but I guess I’m just not that good a person. I think in this case its much like you guys like to go on about being called out for not voting: Ostracizing others for cutting Republican family members and friends out of their life is just like it. Its their choice. Personally: We did it.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:27
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I'm trying to take my own advice. I joined the DSA in the wake of August 12th but because I'm not much of a joiner, I hadn't done much with my local chapter. Slowly, I'm getting involved with them. Watching Non Compete and Second Thought on youtube and getting depressed and angry about the state of the country just doesn't cut it anymore. I read a really good quote on this lately: "Rather than accepting the things I can't change, I'm working to change the things I can't accept". Hell yeah  Get involved, make friends, advance the cause.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:28
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TheDisreputableDog posted:It’s all just ridiculous posturing. “I refuse to eat turkey with my racist Uncle,” I smugly type on my cell phone made from slave labor. “I’m helping!” "And yet you too live in society, I am very smart!"
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Nov 22, 2021 21:29
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Is anybody actually saying this? I cut out most of the Republican voters in my life because they were actively bigoted towards me, or because they couldn't stop screaming about how masks were muzzles and vaccines were poison. To the 'is anyone saying this', yes. Right here. Cuomo is the harm reduction candidate. FLIPADELPHIA posted:No ethical person votes Republican post 2016. At least with Dems, individuals can make the harm reduction argument. And with the vaccine point, that's hard to judge because we know that at the very least the current Vice President would have been skeptical about a vaccine if it had come from the Trump Administration, and I think we'd be seeing a lot more pro-vaccine Republicans and a lot more anti-vaccine Democrats had COVID hit two years earlier. Sanguinia posted:Depends, how much is Mike DeWine talking about how much a threat my trans students are to my female students if they're allowed to play sports with them or use the bathroom they want, thereby encouraging violence and discrimination against them? If the answer is "more than none," then yes, those people can get hosed. DeWine explicitly banned via executive order such discrimination for state employees, has opposed governments interfering with trans athletes competing, and has refused to sign bills trying to do so.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:30
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I suppose I should’ve just ostracized my partner instead of helping them care for their terminally ill Republican voting father but I guess I’m just not that good a person. I hear that the liberals said to murder anyone who has ever voted Republican. rare Magic card l00k posted:To the 'is anyone saying this', yes. Right here. Cuomo is the harm reduction candidate. I asked if anyone was actually saying: "cut out all people who vote Republican, they're evil" You posted someone saying: "No ethical person votes Republican post 2016" Is the distinction lost on you? rare Magic card l00k posted:And with the vaccine point, that's hard to judge because we know that at the very least the current Vice President would have been skeptical about a vaccine if it had come from the Trump Administration, and I think we'd be seeing a lot more pro-vaccine Republicans and a lot more anti-vaccine Democrats had COVID hit two years earlier. If you're trying to argue that there's no difference between Republican and Democratic voters when it comes to vaccines, it's pretty easily disproven by actual vaccination rates. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 21:30
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TheDisreputableDog posted:It’s all just ridiculous posturing. “I refuse to eat turkey with my racist Uncle,” I smugly type on my cell phone made from slave labor. “I’m helping!” Sorry to hear about your nephews op
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Nov 22, 2021 21:30
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is just not true. I'm not going to make any claims about how successful it is overall as a tactic, but I know it's not correct because I myself have been shamed into reevaluating my beliefs. When I was going through my deconversion from rightwing Christianity, someone on this very forum called me out for espousing fundamentalist beliefs when I articulated my views on religion. I was floored, and defensively insisted it wasn't true. But then I took a look at what was actually being said and I realized the person I was talking to was completely correct. It was probably the watershed moment in my rejection of both Christianity and rightwing / centrist politics. So, couple things about this: first is that it seems you were already working on yourself when that happened, so someone poking you for failing is directly in line with what I'm suggesting needs to happen. The other important aspect to this is that kindness doesn't mean dishonesty; working with someone to deprogram their bigotry requires honesty and trust above basically all other things. "Kindness" in the sense I'm using it isn't "coddle them until they do what you want," it's "treat them as if they're human and they matter and are making a mistake, rather than treating them as if they're scum to be scorned." Which is essentially what you said -- that poster didn't dismiss you or tell you you were beautiful, they treated you like a person who was wrong, but not inherently bad. That's the key. As for the shame itself, well, I don't think it really helped you, in this case. Someone reflected something you didn't like in yourself, and you changed it. You weren't ostracized or told you needed to keep your fundie poo poo to yourself, you were just told, "hey, this thing you said sucks." Shame doesn't work as an agent of change, and I don't mean to diminish your story, but I think you might be seeing it as something other than it was. Unless you've greatly undersold what they said to you, shame wasn't ever a part of it. rare Magic card l00k posted:For people going 'cut out all people who vote Republican, they're evil', I want an answer to a question. For some people it's axiomatic. If you vote for people who stand against everything good, then you are also bad. It's not an impossible viewpoint to take up, considering that republicans do, as a group, more or less stand for every bad thing ever. I don't know many people who apply that to individual faults, but if someone was 100% dead-set against all sex pests and all republicans, then I suppose for them to correct response would be to not vote for either. But typically people who say "cut out the nazis" aren't saying that to mean "all bad people" they mean "all people who actively work to make [their] life worse." For some people that's a kind of self-care, so I can't really fault them for it.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:31
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rare Magic card l00k posted:DeWine explicitly banned via executive order such discrimination for state employees, has opposed governments interfering with trans athletes competing, and has refused to sign bills trying to do so. Then the question is moot because doing that caused Mike DeWine to get primaried and he never actually faced not-sexpest Cuomo, and the Republicans voters you don't think deserve to be cut off loudly cheered for it because they got another RINO out of their party.
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Nov 22, 2021 21:34
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