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Willa Rogers posted:No; I pointed out that Biden executed the agreement that Trump made, albeit later than Trump's agreed-to end date. You always talk about how your rotating villain thing is based on pattern recognition, but you are unable to see the pattern of Trump making huge promises and not implementing them?
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Nov 28, 2021 06:59
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Trump obviously didn't intend to follow through with the pullout, but I think it's also just as likely that we'd still be in Afghanistan if he hadn't ordered it. Does anyone think Biden would have done it on his own initiative? I don't, I think he would have just kept kicking the can down the road. That's why I can't give either of them credit.
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Nov 28, 2021 07:17
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I'm not sure which claim is more fun about Biden taking office to find out absolutely no preparations had been made for Trump's promised withdrawal. 1. That Trump totes woulda done it and maybe better. 2. That it wouldn't have been botched so badly if Biden did it three months earlier with even less preparation. Fister Roboto posted:Trump obviously didn't intend to follow through with the pullout, but I think it's also just as likely that we'd still be in Afghanistan if he hadn't ordered it. Does anyone think Biden would have done it on his own initiative? I don't, I think he would have just kept kicking the can down the road. That's why I can't give either of them credit. Hard to say here though. From all I've seen more recently Biden had pushed for more drawing down and withdrawing from the forever war under Obama, just the VP had no formal power and Obama was paying a lot more attention to the war hawks in Defense and State,., not to mention the generals who swore they could win this. As someone with little attachment to the continued occupation of Afghanistan, I rather doubt Biden particularly wanted to spend four years being dragged by the right every time one of our forces got hit by an IED at no benefit to himself.
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Nov 28, 2021 07:30
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Willa Rogers posted:No; I pointed out that Biden executed the agreement that Trump made, albeit later than Trump's agreed-to end date. Let’s go Brandon, are you with me Willa? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 28, 2021 07:37
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PeterCat posted:One thing omitted from this is the Obama-Biden administration had 8 years to pull out of Afghanistan and didn't do it, which makes me loath to give any credit to Biden, especially since I was part of the forces sent to deal with the fallout of pulling out of Iraq. We still have 2500 troops in Iraq and Syria, though no one has talked about them since Trump had the Iranian general killed. Uh, would you mind pointing me to the document /law/source showing us that the Vice President has the power to command troops? I’m really, really curious how that’s supposed to work.
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Nov 28, 2021 08:35
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can we please stop arguing a counterfactual about which variety of poop from a butt would stink slightly less
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Nov 28, 2021 09:07
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Solkanar512 posted:Uh, would you mind pointing me to the document Well, from Joe Biden's own words President Obama put him in charge of the pullout: From the Democratic Primary Debate in Miami, June 27, 2020. 1 hour and 34 minutes if it doesn't que up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX7hni-zGD8&t=5647s And here's an interview from 2010 where Biden claims that it isn't possible to renegotiate the withdrawal of troops from Iraq as the administration's hands were tied by the SOFA that Bush had negotiated. Nevermind that when the Iraqi parliament voted for US forces to leave in 2020 Trump ignored them and we are still there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwfVeUZ3i8U After doing a little bit of searching, Al-Jazeera reports that Biden will end the "combat mission" in Iraq by next year. Which is interesting because according to statements made by then President Obama in 2014, the US troops be sent int to counter ISIS would not have a combat mission in Iraq. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/26/biden-kadhimi-seal-agreement-to-end-us-combat-mission-in-iraq AJ posted:Biden and Kadhimi met in the Oval Office for their first face-to-face talks as part of a strategic dialogue between the United States and Iraq. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/10/Statement-president-isil-1 President Barack Obama posted:In June, I deployed several hundred American servicemembers to Iraq to assess how we can best support Iraqi security forces. Now that those teams have completed their work –- and Iraq has formed a government –- we will send an additional 475 servicemembers to Iraq. As I have said before, these American forces will not have a combat mission –- we will not get dragged into another ground war in Iraq. PeterCat fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 09:53
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PeterCat posted:Well, from Joe Biden's own words President Obama put him in charge of the pullout: Pulling out was going well until ISIS, and at first it wasn't clear just how bad that meme would spread. Apocalyptic cults usually don't build quite that much energy. The situation evolved even as that statement got made, because in 2014 it was still mostly regional and hadn't exploded with all the visa jihadi from Europe and Africa. Because plans change. It rapidly became clear that without a combat intervention the Iraqi government would not hold with the army of 2014. They believed the could hold on their own in 2020, with the first and likely largest wave of jihad now over, and it seems Biden now agrees. But all this poo poo takes time, and they are now wary about making sure they don't see a repeat of the errors in Afghanistan. Which means ensuring every piece is in place and it wont collapse like wet paper if some group decides to try a blitz. Wars have a lot of moving parts. Slamming your hand in because your political opposition promised you would slam your hand into the moving machine at a certain date is basically letting your opponent tell you where to shoot yourself. Would you hold them to that standard if it had been promised to be a day after the transfer, when its trump plan only? Because military planing on that scale is not fast. He took the extra time and Afghanistan still had major issues. And he didn't fold to political and media pressure to turn around and fight the offensive, which would have almost assuredly resulted in everyone in the airport being held as a hostage for ransom. Endlessly whinging about both going too fast and deep and not fast or deep enough isn't funny or productive. This is a comedy forum, find a better bit. Of the things I'm actually okay with that particular adventure against ISIS rates in the 'wars the US probably needed to be involved in' group. That puts three in my list, and only two were there for the right reasons.
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Nov 28, 2021 15:33
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PeterCat posted:One thing omitted from this is the Obama-Biden administration had 8 years to pull out of Afghanistan and didn't do it, which makes me loath to give any credit to Biden, especially since I was part of the forces sent to deal with the fallout of pulling out of Iraq. We still have 2500 troops in Iraq and Syria, though no one has talked about them since Trump had the Iranian general killed. Biden wasn’t a big fan of the war in Afghanistan since ~2008 ish. Based on reporting, such as https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/world/14biden.html, and the fact that he actually ended the war, I would definitely believe it was more Obama’s fault for that. Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 16:03
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I do get the feeling Obama's entire term was defined by the feeling that he couldn't be too radical (ie; do anything progressive or even not fascist at all) because he's The Black President with a Legacy to worry about. And of course that he was desperately wanting to get credit from people who are ideologically defined by not giving him any credit ever on anything. And I don't just mean Republicans there. I wonder how many kids don't even know Obama's name now.
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Nov 28, 2021 17:39
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I feel like Obama's whole thing was to get a seat at the table of whatever powers there are so he pretty much kept status quo/establishment and bailed them all out in order to get in the club. I think he pretty much spells it out in his book he didn't want to cause a shift in power.
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Nov 28, 2021 17:53
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Gatts posted:I feel like Obama's whole thing was to get a seat at the table of whatever powers there are so he pretty much kept status quo/establishment and bailed them all out in order to get in the club. I think he pretty much spells it out in his book he didn't want to cause a shift in power. All I remember from his latest book is Michelle asking him why he even wanted to be President and him having no answer.
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Nov 28, 2021 18:23
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I bet Obama now could come up with billion$ of answers.
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Nov 28, 2021 18:28
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Killer robot posted:2. That it wouldn't have been botched so badly if Biden did it three months earlier with even less preparation. Is someone making this claim everything I've think I've seen arguing about an earlier pull out is during Obama's 8 year administration.
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Nov 28, 2021 18:46
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Thom12255 posted:All I remember from his latest book is Michelle asking him why he even wanted to be President and him having no answer. That’s pretty normal though. I mean not the specific thing, but the having no reason for wants. I mean rationalizations after the fact for them exist, but they’re most not rational.
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Nov 28, 2021 18:52
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Harold Fjord posted:Is someone making this claim everything I've think I've seen arguing about an earlier pull out is during Obama's 8 year administration. Yeah, there were a couple of posts specifically blaming the rushed and unprepared Afghanistan withdrawal on Biden delaying Trump's deadline.
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Nov 28, 2021 18:58
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Harold Fjord posted:Is someone making this claim everything I've think I've seen arguing about an earlier pull out is during Obama's 8 year administration. Yes. Petercat posted:No, my point is Biden delayed the pull out for 3 months for political reasons. PeterCat posted:The pull out with the Taliban was negotiated under the Trump administration with a pull out date of May, 2021. The Taliban were abiding by this agreement until Joe Biden announced he was extending our time in Afghanistan by 3 months and then made a complete hash out of the withdrawal.
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Nov 28, 2021 19:04
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Aegis posted:Yes. They delayed for 3 months because Trump provided no plan, had nothing in place for the pullout. Again: As soon as Trump finally accepted he had lost the election, he spent the rest of the time doing nothing towards the pullout and in some cases making it more difficult. Trump did nothing of value towards the pullout of Afghanistan. He signed an agreement hoping for a quick media win, like he did with North Korea, Iran, and the Middle East.
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Nov 28, 2021 19:11
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CommieGIR posted:They delayed for 3 months because Trump provided no plan, had nothing in place for the pullout. Again: As soon as Trump finally accepted he had lost the election, he spent the rest of the time doing nothing towards the pullout and in some cases making it more difficult. Just to be clear, I agree with all of this. I was responding to the "is anyone actually making that argument?" post.
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Nov 28, 2021 19:19
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CommieGIR posted:They delayed for 3 months because Trump provided no plan, had nothing in place for the pullout. Again: As soon as Trump finally accepted he had lost the election, he spent the rest of the time doing nothing towards the pullout and in some cases making it more difficult. What's funny is Trump was too much of a pussy to stand up to the big sexy generals. But Biden being the newest wave of machine politician was able to just decree a pullout in a snap of the fingers. I mean if he did pullout all the Republicans would be smoking his jimmy Dean sausage in praise for the wonderful work
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Nov 28, 2021 19:33
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IMO noone did anything of value and any group taking credit would be comical; Trump started it but likely wouldn't have gone through with it, the pentagon didnt think they'd have to under any president & made zero plans, and Biden/Trump didn't apply any pressure to them to make any such plans nor expedite the process. We left because we had no choice to leave, not because anyone involved wanted to. The ANA was in complete freefall and our toadies were already loading up their briefcases with everything of value (in the case of our puppet-president quite literally) to leave. Literally the only alternative would have been an immensely unpopular re-buildup of our invasion forces, the reconstruction of the ANA, and a costly guerilla war against a newly emboldened and freshly armed Taliban. It wasn't going to happen. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 19:34
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:What's funny is Trump was too much of a pussy to stand up to the big sexy generals. But Biden being the newest wave of machine politician was able to just decree a pullout in a snap of the fingers.  even if this is parody
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Nov 28, 2021 19:41
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Neurolimal posted:IMO noone did anything of value and any group taking credit would be comical; Trump started it but likely wouldn't have gone through with it, the pentagon didnt think they'd have to under any president & made zero plans, and Biden/Trump didn't apply any pressure to them to make any such plans nor expedite the process. We left because we had no choice to leave, not because anyone involved wanted to. The ANA was in complete freefall and our toadies were already loading up their briefcases with everything of value (in the case of our puppet-president quite literally) to leave. Especially since, as part of the negotiations, Trump got Pakistan to release a LOT of Taliban prisoners including their current leader. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/aug/18/instagram-posts/posts-correct-about-trump-administrations-role-rel/
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Nov 28, 2021 19:48
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Neurolimal posted:IMO noone did anything of value and any group taking credit would be comical; Trump started it but likely wouldn't have gone through with it, the pentagon didnt think they'd have to under any president & made zero plans, and Biden/Trump didn't apply any pressure to them to make any such plans nor expedite the process. We left because we had no choice to leave, not because anyone involved wanted to. The ANA was in complete freefall and our toadies were already loading up their briefcases with everything of value (in the case of our puppet-president quite literally) to leave. Yeah, it's been funny watching people argue about who deserves credit for being president when we finally had to admit we lost.
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Nov 28, 2021 19:53
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It seems the only way we actually left was because we had an inept and spiteful president followed by someone that actually wanted to leave (decades too late) Nobody deserves any credit and it's in spite of them not because of them that we aren't there now. Also the Taliban was quite a bit more prepared for us to leave than we were. https://twitter.com/NKingofDC/status/1464923751808749568
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Nov 28, 2021 20:03
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It seems the only way we actually left was because we had an inept and spiteful president followed by someone that actually wanted to leave (decades too late) All these strangers coming into kabul... Claiming to be looking for work. When the power in Kabul went out the Taliban flags flew proudly and replaced almost all of the afghan flags. When day broke the city was turned.
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Nov 28, 2021 20:06
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It seems the only way we actually left was because we had an inept and spiteful president followed by someone that actually wanted to leave (decades too late) drat, US military intelligence once again assumed their enemy was a bunch of idiots they could easily beat because they had a command structure and tactics we didn't understand. Americans are very good at confusing their own ignorance for someone else's. No wonder they want to get back to normal conventional wars. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 20:12
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readingatwork posted:In general I advocate for a world where the essentials are provided by the state for free/very cheap (housing, banking, healthcare, internet, common products, certain food staples, etc) and the rest is left to a market that's intentionally kept small and strictly regulated to serve human need, not to generate wealth. All businesses would be forced to operate as non-profit worker co-ops and any wealth accumulated by individuals progressively taxed with a 100% wealth cap in place once you've accumulated enough cash to retire forever (so a few million probably). There are other aspects I could dig into as well like a strong welfare state, breaking down/rebuilding undemocratic institutions like the police and the senate, and making politics in general more democratic, but you get the idea. Move away from profit and towards the human need whenever reasonably possible and let the markets pick up whatever scraps are left to fill in the gaps. I like this model because it takes the best aspects of socialism but lets people still do stuff like be a soundcloud rapper if they want. People can still chase their dreams if they want, they just wouldn't be able to get rich doing it.
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Nov 28, 2021 20:35
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Gumball Gumption posted:No wonder they want to get back to normal conventional wars. Huh?
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Nov 28, 2021 20:59
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This is a common refrain after Vietnam. The US Army and the DoD as a whole want to plan for and fight a conventional battle as that plays to their strengths. Counterinsurgency and small wars are difficult and unrewarding. It's much easier to have a clearly defined national army to fight and it's what the DoD is really geared towards. Also the MiC is making billions re-equipping the Army to counter the threats of Russia and China.
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Nov 28, 2021 21:13
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I do believe the fact that we supply almost the entire world with arms defeats the purpose of a conventional war for the MiC. We're on a constant war footing industrial wise and waste trillions to feed that. The waste is building weapons instead of bridges.
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Nov 28, 2021 21:17
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Projection of force. One army vs another army. Basically World War 2 on repeat.
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Nov 28, 2021 21:59
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It seems the only way we actually left was because we had an inept and spiteful president followed by someone that actually wanted to leave (decades too late) I'm inclined to view this as mis-stating reality to push an agenda. I don't view it as the Taliban having had mega-stealthy under cover operatives infiltrating the highest levels ready to step in and take over. Closer to the truth for me would be those people had no desire to fight a losing war to their deaths for a regime they never believed in any way so they took down one flag, put up a different flag, and went to dinner.
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Nov 28, 2021 23:13
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bird food bathtub posted:I'm inclined to view this as mis-stating reality to push an agenda. I don't view it as the Taliban having had mega-stealthy under cover operatives infiltrating the highest levels ready to step in and take over. Closer to the truth for me would be those people had no desire to fight a losing war to their deaths for a regime they never believed in any way so they took down one flag, put up a different flag, and went to dinner. These are the words of Kabul residents themselves, lots of new faces running around the city in the months leading up to the fall. All claiming to be there in business or work but not going further than that in explanation. Infiltrating key parts of the city like police force, market sellers, laundry, food production etc. Literally the power going out in the city was the que to rise up and begin the cleansing process. You know, underestimating the prowess of the Taliban was an awful awful thing for the US empire. The Taliban had literal shadow governors of each region that were consistently posting things and updates etc. This thing has to be so air tight there would be no faction for the US to turncoat into anti Taliban resistance. Only one truly cropped up and that was snuffed out in a few weeks. The Taliban knew they controlled the country long before US forces left. They completed their side of the american bargain as did we.
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Nov 28, 2021 23:49
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Yeah, they want to run the country and are putting in the work to do that. You probably do not like how they're going to rule but it's silly to think they stumbled back into power out of apathy.
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Nov 28, 2021 23:56
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The reason the Taliban won is simple, they're the locals. Eventually the US was going to leave and the Taliban weren't. The people who live in Afghanistan are smart enough to figure out who they should support in the long term. And judging by the number of Green on Blue deaths in the country, even Afghans who joined the ANA were not necessarily on the side of the US and the Afghan government.
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Nov 29, 2021 00:44
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https://twitter.com/AlexThomp/status/1465114874065920000 Alright alright alright. Who else is running besides Beto?
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Nov 29, 2021 01:36
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:https://twitter.com/AlexThomp/status/1465114874065920000 Nobody with a chance to win the primary. Beto is just there to rack up funds from out-of-state donors and then get owned
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Nov 29, 2021 02:14
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Srice posted:I think a lot about how the Clinton response to the slogan "Make America Great Again" was "America is already great". I can't think of a worse response than that, especially for the demographic you're talking about. I hate to defend ol' Hill Dawg but in fairness I think the effort there was to deflect the whole MAGA angle by basically saying "Uh aren't you Republicans the ones always saying America is the best country in the world and can do no wrong and stuff? And now you're letting Trump put us down?" rather than "Actually everything is fine". Of course, she and the Dems at large misunderstood what Trump was doing as badly as his Republican rivals so it didn't work lol
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Nov 29, 2021 03:48
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Wow, he is so rich. McConaughey posted:I've learned that freedom comes with responsibility and that great leaders serve. Whether a politician, a CEO, star quarterback, a mother, father, husband, wife, brother, friend, mentor or teacher, we lead by serving each other. We lead through our service. What is service? Hollywood is actually a goldmine of untapped political talent for the Democrats and critically time-sensative Progressive goals. The town is so Liberal that the relative handful of Conservatives have to hide out in Fight Club-esque secret basement meetings set up by Gary Sinise when they want to talk to each other. Two of the most powerful monsters to ever get into the white house were just trashy B and D listers in Hollywood. But the combination of media training, even subar acting skills, on-camera experience, and built-in publicity made them practically unstoppable in a job that's basically a popularity contest that's 95% reading teleprompters on people's tv screens. If we could get someone like Clooney, Hanks, or even McConaughey it could make a massive difference. McConaughey could run as a Republican and the fact that he's not insane would be huge and could mean Climate Action could start getting critical support. Instead we get cynical grifters like DeSantis and Abbott and stone psychos like MTG and Cawthorn. 1.5C right around the corner and the only Hollywood stars that want to step up are the idiot monsters. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Nov 29, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2021 03:54
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