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The notion of a Final Solution to the Israel Problem seems a little, uh
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Dec 7, 2021 21:18
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Serf posted:Yeah, if we can railgun their nukes from orbit and then take them down with conventional warfare we should. Orbital strikes are somewhere between tactical nukes and nukes in terms of civilian casualties. Your going to cause bare minimum hundreds of thousands of casualties assuming they are anywhere near population centers, assuming you actually hit. If they are entrenched, well good luck.
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Dec 7, 2021 21:19
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Telsa Cola posted:Orbital strikes are somewhere between tactical nukes and nukes in terms of civilian casualties. Your going to cause bare minimum hundreds of thousands of casualties assuming they are anywhere near population centers, assuming you actually hit. If they are entrenched, well good luck. We can just use the lowest power setting, it'll be fine.
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Dec 7, 2021 21:21
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I brought this up in the discord, we know they have nuclear bombs, we're assuming they have nuclear missiles... the missiles we can shoot down once we get the railguns in place, but what do we do if they use alternative means of delivery, like say car trunks? What if the absolute worst happens and whoever's in charge is mad enough to decide to nuke Jerusalem as a final 'gently caress you' when it's clear they're gonna lose?
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Dec 7, 2021 21:43
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Communist Zombie posted:I know the Isreali Communist Party is non/anti zionist, but what is there stance on the Palestine issue? IRL they split over it in 1965, with the current Israeli Communist Party being descended from the generally pro-Palestinian faction and the other half of the split having since merged into Meretz, which supports a two-state solution. Officially, IRL, the party's stance is explicitly anti-Zionist (to quote their founding documents, 'we reject the ideological foundations and practices of Zionism, which breed racist attitudes and violate equality and democracy'), but also not necessarily opposed to the existence of the state of Israel. They favor a single-state solution with equal rights, full citizenship, and self-determination for all residents regardless of ethnic or religious background, including both Jews and Arabs (the same documents call for 'Jewish-Arab brotherhood'). Exactly what that state is called is open to discussion - indeed, the party itself has, IRL, been known as both the Communist Party of Palestine and the Communist Party of Israel at different times; if the state that finally exists there when the conflict ends is called Palestine, they'll just rename themselves again. This includes both a right for Jewish people to live in that state, whether it is called Israel or Palestine in the end, and also special rights for Arabs displaced from their homes by the initial settlement, including a right of return for both. This would, in real life, probably be complicated quite a bit by many of the former having taken the homes of the latter, so you may have two people attempting to, say, 'return' to the same home; solving these disputes would likely be a major challenge for such a new state. As a member of neither of those groups I don't really think I can be counted on to handle writing about the specifics of that hypothetical in a respectful way (especially not in a video game about magic space boats!), so the specifics of that process will not be covered in detail, at least not by me; if someone who is a member of one of those groups feels inspired to write fiction about it, there will be space here for them to do so. In any case, these are the positions of the party in real life, and had already been established by the time our game diverged from real life (indeed, it was a major contributor to the split in the first place, with the other faction being pro-Zionist and supporting the Six Day War), so they would certainly still hold them. A Palestine with full and equal rights for everyone or an Israel with full and equal rights for everyone would satisfy them equally, or at least that is what the real people who founded the party in reality say, and I see no reason not to take them at their word in our pretend alternate history. In the game they are also deep underground due to being illegal. While this is definitely partly because of anticommunism, it's also part of a pragmatic sweeping ban on all militant and radical organizations; hard-right groups, particularly the ones that were especially aggressive about trying to settle in newly-acquired territory, have also been banned and suppressed. Starting a war they would probably lose because a bunch of gung-ho settlers wanted to move into already-inhabited villages was not something the IDF's general staff was keen on doing, regardless of their ideological tendency - they almost invariably lean to the right, but they're not mustache-twirling villains and also not suicidal.
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Dec 7, 2021 22:10
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Telsa Cola posted:Orbital strikes are somewhere between tactical nukes and nukes in terms of civilian casualties. Your going to cause bare minimum hundreds of thousands of casualties assuming they are anywhere near population centers, assuming you actually hit. If they are entrenched, well good luck. this is also true in the mechanics of the game - when conducting orbital bombardment, the collateral damage casualties number in the event tracker is denominated in the millions. Low-power, early-game weapons like this one generally cause very low collateral damage per shot, so it will end up looking something like '0.02 million' or something like that, but it's still anything but surgical. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 22:24
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I guess the question is, although it may be a little too late now, should we try for a diplomatic solution before we move?
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Dec 7, 2021 23:05
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The bill requires we try a diplomatic approach first, but I'll admit it is to some extent just a pretense.
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Dec 7, 2021 23:11
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NewMars posted:I guess the question is, although it may be a little too late now, should we try for a diplomatic solution before we move? It's not like we lose much by giving it a shot. If their economy is nearly in shambles from the Arab League dissolving, and they've shown they're not opposed to allies of convenience, we can probably get our foot in the door to either de-radicalize them Luxury Gay Space Communism style, or at the very least quietly foment unrest against a repressive government leading to an internal uprising they can't really threaten with nukes.
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Dec 7, 2021 23:13
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Might be time to pour some love into Palestine, build it up and give a clear and obvious display of the benefits of being on team CI.
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Dec 7, 2021 23:27
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Communist Zombie posted:I know the Isreali Communist Party is non/anti zionist, but what is there stance on the Palestine issue? New Afrika has no interest in creating and propping up a settler ethnostate, in as much as it is interested in propping up a black african ethnostate in the Southeastern US. Creating any sort of "Jewish State" means that those who exist within it who are not jewish will effectively be second class citizens. If such a state is protected and supported by the Comintern, then we are no better than the old western allies, or even GLADIO. Edit: alternatively, if Haiti wants to create a Jewish Ethnostate, they could give up some of their territory for it. Perhaps Les Cayes and the area surrounding it? Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Dec 7, 2021 |
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Dec 7, 2021 23:29
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Maybe we can give the Jewish people Florida? We need to kick the Joint Chiefs out of Miami anyway
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Dec 7, 2021 23:42
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Please do not make the reaction to wanting to topple an ethnostate be setting up an ethnostate, please. The UAWR would be very unhappy if that were the case.
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Dec 7, 2021 23:43
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Asterite34 posted:Maybe we can give the Jewish people Florida? We need to kick the Joint Chiefs out of Miami anyway This isn't Cthulhutech. We don't give bad people areas inhabited by minorities (and kick out the minorities) as a consolation prize.
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Dec 7, 2021 23:44
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(for the record aparteid ethnostates are stupid and horrible and I do not endorse their creation or support, my kinda tasteless joke aside)
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Dec 8, 2021 00:57
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Fivemarks posted:New Afrika has no interest in creating and propping up a settler ethnostate, in as much as it is interested in propping up a black african ethnostate in the Southeastern US. Creating any sort of "Jewish State" means that those who exist within it who are not jewish will effectively be second class citizens. Israel was created as a response to the shoah, and considering the long history of anti semitism I believe it is within their right to have a nation to call their own. However "a nation that the jewish people can call home" is not the same thing as "a jewish ethnostate", and Haiti supports a one state Isreali-Palestinian federation though through self determination the people may decide they prefer two separate states. //And this is my position irl, ideally one state but two states with the original borders is most realistic We wont oppose whatever the Cominterp decides to do, so long as it doesnt contradict its ideals. This is a thorny issue with no obvious best answer, perhaps if diplomacy fails after we conquer them the Cominterp can run the government for a decade or so to de-zionize the area and encourage arab-isreali brotherhood (Fivemarks did suggest this in the discord) before letting the people run a constitutional convention?
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Dec 8, 2021 01:22
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Mister Bates posted:this is also true in the mechanics of the game - when conducting orbital bombardment, the collateral damage casualties number in the event tracker is denominated in the millions. Low-power, early-game weapons like this one generally cause very low collateral damage per shot, so it will end up looking something like '0.02 million' or something like that, but it's still anything but surgical. In all seriousness, maybe I misunderstood what the plan was. I thought our railguns were for shooting down nukes before they could detonate.
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Dec 8, 2021 02:57
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Serf posted:In all seriousness, maybe I misunderstood what the plan was. I thought our railguns were for shooting down nukes before they could detonate. Yeah, this is part of why we don't want ORBITAL anti-missile railguns. Yes they'll hit and disable a nuke, but with a ferrous slug being shot at relativistic speeds, it's gonna punch straight through its target and keep going, and if it's going "down," it's gonna hit the surface of the earth with kinetic energy almost on the level of a nuke itself. I keep telling you guys, banning nuclear weapons is mostly performative at this point because the crappy heavy fighters we'll be making a dozen of in the near future can do roughly the same thing as a tactical nuke every ten seconds anywhere on the globe, the only thing missing is the fallout. And yeah, that's a big difference, but that just makes them less hassle to use indiscriminately. We've rendered conventional ICBMs obsolete in multiple senses.
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Dec 8, 2021 03:17
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Affi posted:Once we have star wars up and running we should give them an ultimatum. Incidentally of course, for this exact reason, if they think we’re close to being able to neutralize their nuclear arsenal they have a strong incentive to use it before it becomes irrelevant.
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Dec 8, 2021 03:32
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Serf posted:In all seriousness, maybe I misunderstood what the plan was. I thought our railguns were for shooting down nukes before they could detonate. I think the problem is that, being IRBMs with a sorium fuel source, they may reach their destinations before we even realize they're in the air. The shuttle that nuked the shipyards was on a heavy lift orbiter, and wasn't really built for speed. Plop a meson base or five down when we get them, for maximum
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Dec 8, 2021 03:57
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Asterite34 posted:Yeah, this is part of why we don't want ORBITAL anti-missile railguns. Yes they'll hit and disable a nuke, but with a ferrous slug being shot at relativistic speeds, it's gonna punch straight through its target and keep going, and if it's going "down," it's gonna hit the surface of the earth with kinetic energy almost on the level of a nuke itself. I see, I phrased it poorly. I thought it would shooting down their missiles while they're in or near orbit. Isn't this the reason for the ground-based railgun network we're gonna build?
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Dec 8, 2021 03:59
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Asterite34 posted:Yeah, this is part of why we don't want ORBITAL anti-missile railguns. Yes they'll hit and disable a nuke, but with a ferrous slug being shot at relativistic speeds, it's gonna punch straight through its target and keep going, and if it's going "down," it's gonna hit the surface of the earth with kinetic energy almost on the level of a nuke itself. As GLADIO demonstrated our opposition is not limited to conventional ICBMs. The civilian transports that ply the lunar route are interplanetary ballistic missiles (to be frank, even without a warhead thanks to Rick Robinson's First Law of Space Combat, though idk if aurora models that) atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Dec 8, 2021 |
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Dec 8, 2021 04:17
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Aurora physics are 100% basic space ocean, everything built with TNEs is immobile unless it is anchored to or in close orbit of a celestial body, unless it is in a black hole system where it has a static speed component towards the black hole, unless it is being towed, or unless it is under thrust, this goes for space missiles, space giant cat statues, space moths, space fighters and space ships. The one exception is what beam weapons fire, but railgun slugs apparently aren't made from TNE and neither are particle lances, plasma shot, microwaves or lasers, or the rest of the happy fun stuff. One case of lethal physics is ramming, which I don't remember being in the new version. Non aimed weapons never hit something they aren't targeted at either, with the tiny yet welcome exception that a missile or mine with its own detection system can acquire a new target alone. I like to imagine various reasons it works that way, missile detonators are built by maniacs who don't want nukes to blow up in the wrong place, beam weapon operators and fire controls take safety really seriously and the impacts are too localized to mess things up unless you are deliberately targeting installations with them, something that isn't even possible with all of them. After all a nuclear explosion is completely lost in a hurricane, which has comically more energy to release than the bomb does, yet it causes less damage to a city because that energy doesn't apply itself in the same way. I'd like it if we didn't bar ourselves from gameplay mechanics because "no nukes" sounds good except that "one (1) nuke" is the standard unit of damage worth noting, at all, in game. Sure, something about potential genetic modification for living on hellworld the second, that has implications, let's just say it's a known, working, reversible treatment. (it is, it really is, the experts assure me it is.) Ahem, what about using those fancy spy satellites for archeology? There's a whole bunch of lost cities to find just in the Middle-East and in the Indus valley, for a start.
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Dec 8, 2021 05:15
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A fun piece of Aurora physics regarding something we haven’t built yet is that military railgun projectiles aren’t modeled in game and basically travel as fast as lasers, but the resource containers fired by industrial mass drivers are modeled, and if the receiving mass driver is blown up or demolished while incoming containers are still in transit then the containers slam into the planet with atom-bomb levels of energy, killing millions.
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Dec 8, 2021 05:35
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Those things own and I wish we could build a special structure at jump points to allow routing them between systems, and also launch finished products instead of just refined ore, and also that we could do space train robberies on them.
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Dec 8, 2021 05:39
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SIGSEGV posted:Those things own and I wish we could build a special structure at jump points to allow routing them between systems, and also launch finished products instead of just refined ore, and also that we could do space train robberies on them. Its pretty cheap and really simple to just set up a freighter hauling cycle for this though. If you do some really simple math you can adjust the freighter speed so that the pick up and drop off loop completes in whatever time span you deem reasonable. Make sure there's a fuel source at some location along the way that the freighter stops at and forget it even exists.
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Dec 8, 2021 05:49
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Voting is now closed. Fortunately I don't have to go through and manually count them anymore, I'll write up a summary of the results shortly.
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Dec 8, 2021 09:46
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SM-90, the Krusenstern Initiative passes, and an expedition into the Kuiper Belt will be undertaken. Z-91, AIDA fails, and nuclear disarmament will not be pursued at this time. Z-92, CITRA, passes and will take effect immediately. Z-93, SPECTRE passes, and a unified intelligence agency will be formed. VW-94, Proposal for the formation of the Psychonauts Corp passes, and the organization will be established as instructed. VW-95, Proposal for intervention in Israel passes, and your diplomats will attempt to bring about a peaceful end to the Israeli military junta, once your anti-missile defense systems are in place. MH-96, The USS North Carolina proposal passes, and the ship will pass into the control of the Comintern. This is the first naval vessel of any kind to be directly under the control of the international body, rather than a member state military, and it will actually be manned by Interplanetary People's Army personnel, with a new branch of that organization established to do so, the awkwardly named Interplanetary People's Army Navy. NM-97. Cosmological Development Quantification Doctrine passes, and the economic ministry will be expanded to manage the future economic development of space. In addition, the Fraternal Order of Mars is officially granted a MOSA civilian spaceflight charter, becoming the third civilian shipping line officially permitted to operate by the Ministry. Liaison offices are already being set up to coordinate future operations between the Ministry of Outer Space Affairs and the economic ministry, and to locate future sites for development. V-98, Amendment to Scientist Assignment Rules passes, and you can now actually research ground combat techs without breaking the rules (if you still don't have a Ground Combat specialist by the end of this year, remember that you can order scientists to change specialization field! it comes at significant cost but it's better than having no scientists in a field at all) CZ-99, Unchaining of intellectual and creative works act passes, and a phase-out of intellectual property laws in all Comintern member nations will begin. Such a sweeping legislative change will take a while to actually be codified into law, as rules changes to bring local legislation in line with the new directive work their way through various systems. CZ-100, Medal Creation Act of 1983 passes, and new medals will be created. NM-101. The Comintern Statement of Condemnation towards False Treaties and Dismantlement of Economic Imperialism Act passes, and the body formally repudiates the unfair 'treaties' forced upon colonized peoples by their oppressors in years passed. The most immediate practical implication of this is a commitment by the body to repay the 'reparations' forcibly extracted from Haiti for the crime of abolishing slavery. NM-102, Establishment of the Ministry of Agriculture Act, and another department of the Comintern bureaucratic apparatus will be spun up and granted the authority necessary to carry out its tasks. As more and more of these spring up, with portfolios, areas of responsibility, staff, buildings, logos, all the accoutrements, this unwieldy, accidental thing, this loose and desperate military alliance formed on the fly to survive a nuclear war, is starting to look more like an actual government. I-103, California-Comintern Port Provision passes, and PRCal seaports are made available for Comintern use. Conveniently, they just acquired a ship. I-104, Maritime Aid Act passes, obligating member polities to provide aid to the newly established IPAN on request. I-105. Computer Character Encoding Act passes, and a universal standard set of computer characters, or 'Unicode', will be developed and adopted. K-106, Minor bodies Survey and Utilization Act passes, and an asteroid-mining testbed ship will be built and deployed. MH-107. Gravitic Technology Development Act passes, and your scientific institutions will be instructed to prioritize developing practical gravity-manipulation tech for life support and medical use. LB-108. Safe Skies Act fails, and the full demilitarization of space will not be carried out at this time. P-109. People's Army Expansion and Re-Organization Act passes, and the four battalions of the People's Army will become seven divisions (and one independent battalion on the Moon). A-110, Adding Nobel Prizes as potential medals passes, and the Nobel Prize will be recognized in the hierarchy of medals, honors, and commendations of the Comintern. A-111, Support to the Youth Sports Initiative passes, and we will play games together. A Youth Games to run concurrently with the 1984 Spartakiade will be the first major, big-ticket event of the new program, though its less glamorous day-to-day work will be more important in the grand scheme of things. A-112, Citizens' Service Initiative fails, and a worldwide service corps will not be established at this time. P-113, The Ministry of Health Act passes unanimously, and healthcare is added to the growing list of responsibilities the member polities delegate to the wider organization. TC-114, Transponder Mandate passes, and, when you have armed ships, they will make their presence known to anyone listening during peacetime, only going dark when necessary for the defense of the revolution or of humanity. ---------------------------------------------------------- So, with that, there are two things to be done before the year begins. First, medals. We need the following medals: - Service in anti-imperialist/capitalist wars, for post GRW mop up operations or other conflicts that aren't revolutions. - ‘Minor’ revolutionary wars, aka ones that wouldn't be covered by the GRW. - Interkosmos Incident / European Insurgency medal of three orders: lowest for civilian and non militia workers involved, middle those that fought, highest for the ones that lost their lives. Interkosmos personnel will have a modified version that will be determined during design. - The greater GLADIO conflict. These need to be .png images but otherwise can be whatever you want. As a reminder, I made a whole post explaining medals here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3943978&userid=166604#post509249212 Included in this post is the excellent Aurora Ribbon Maker Tool, which makes ready-to-use images designed specifically for this game, is easy to use, and can accept pretty much any image you want as a device to add to the ribbon. Second, ships. The following spacecraft, with the following parameters, will need to be designed: - Project A: A railgun-armed spacecraft, for Project FALX. Maximum size 3000 tons (not a legislative requirement, just limited by your shipyard size). It must be designed around the assumption that hostile aliens, flying ships of or similar to the Roswell design, are its primary opponent. Ten of these vessels have been ordered. If above 1000 tons, must abide by the restrictions of resolution JR-20, which is as follows: quote:JR-20: passes by one vote. The Ministry of Outer Space Affairs is officially classified as a civilian organization, and its mission statement clarified to emphasize peaceful exploration of space above all. Ministry armed vessels will, in first contact scenarios, not fire unless fired upon, and will always prioritize peaceful and diplomatic conduct in future interactions. The development or construction of warships is banned, with the exception of those strictly necessary to ensure the defense of humanity. In game terms, this means that any armed spacecraft larger than 1000 tons must have either a deployment time of less than three months (to allow for defensive and short-ranged patrol vessels), an explicit and specific scientific or exploratory role for which its weapons are necessary (subject to the interpretation of the People's Congress), or one of the following: a Diplomacy Module, Geosurvey or Gravsurvey Sensors, large passive sensors, or a missile magazine that is kept loaded at least 50% with sensor drones/buoys or survey drones/buoys during peacetime. CIWS do not count as weapons for the purposes of this restriction, and this restriction is immediately voided should the Comintern ever find itself in a state of war with another spacefaring power or civilization. - Project B: A modern deep-space exploration vessel, for the Krusenstern Initiative. Maximum size 3000 tons. Must have geosurvey sensors, and EM and Thermal sensors. Must have the range to complete its mission (subject to your interpretation; over 100 billion kilometers on a full tank of fuel is recommended, but it's up to you). Strongly recommended are a long maintenance life, plenty of extra maintenance spares, and a deployment time of at least two years. Armaments were neither explicitly requested nor explicitly prohibited. - Project C: A testbed for asteroid mining, capable of independently surveying and mining objects in the asteroid belt and having sufficient endurance for longer mining-expeditions. Maximum size 20,000 tons. Must be capable of mining asteroids. Depending on personal preference, it may either have cargo capacity of its own or rely on additional infrastructure (in the form of other ships, for example) to transport its bounty. As a reminder, we are on version number 1.12 of Aurora. A complete list of all technologies you have available can be found at the end of the end-of-year post; it's so short there's little point in posting a savegame right now, though I will do so for future design competitions. Ship and medal design competitions are now open! They will remain open for approximately three days. If there is clear consensus on a single design for any one category, no vote will be held in that category; votes will be held in any contested categories. please submit ship designs by copy-pasting the text of the design from Aurora itself inside code tags, like so: code:
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Dec 9, 2021 09:44
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quote:a deployment time of less than three months (to allow for defensive and short-ranged patrol vessels) How does Aurora handle refits? If we wanted to have a wartime variant with more maintenance spares, is it possible to refit these into a wartime variant, or is it too time consuming / expensive to bother?
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Dec 10, 2021 21:36
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I forgot we had a "warships are illegal" law already on the books when voting to build warships, love this game
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Dec 10, 2021 22:49
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Mister Bates posted:The captain apparently ordered an emergency blow, intending to try to fire off all of his remaining missiles as soon as they surfaced, wildly, without really targeting them, in the hope that they'd hit something valuable somewhere. Some of the bridge crew were strongly opposed to this idea, and, when he attempted to have them relieved of duty, well, one thing lead to another. I've just been thinking.... these men's actions saved probably a hundred million lives. Should we give them some kind of decoration?
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Dec 10, 2021 22:53
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The Lone Badger posted:I've just been thinking.... these men's actions saved probably a hundred million lives. Should we give them some kind of decoration? There is the Gladio Conflict medal. //And this reminded me that in the milhist thread (or coldwar thread) someone did a deep dive on Gladio, tracing where it got popularized and going into the original documents, and essentially Gladio, or atleast the popular idea of it, was made up by a fraudster, that not only took stuff out of context but straight up lied what it is about or from. But still Gladio is too good a story/lie not to tell. Communist Zombie fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 22:55
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We can't give GLADIO members the anti-GLADIO medal. Refusing to participate in the murder of millions of people is the bare minimum expectation, not something we hand out Comintern medals to enemy combatants for. The crew of the Revenge are enemy combatants that we took as prisoners of war at gun(torpedo?)point, don't shoot them all and dump them in a ditch obviously but they also don't deserve any special treatment or fancy medals.
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Dec 10, 2021 22:59
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Crazycryodude posted:We can't give GLADIO members the anti-GLADIO medal. Refusing to participate in the murder of millions of people is the bare minimum expectation, not something we hand out Comintern medals to enemy combatants for. The crew of the Revenge are enemy combatants that we took as prisoners of war at gun(torpedo?)point, don't shoot them all and dump them in a ditch obviously but they also don't deserve any special treatment or fancy medals. Yeah, I'm not sure we should be awarding medals for not killing yourself in the name of war crimes you were ordered to commit for a nation that no longer existed, laudable as that is
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Dec 10, 2021 23:52
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Eh nevermind
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Dec 11, 2021 00:17
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Volmarias posted:How does Aurora handle refits? If we wanted to have a wartime variant with more maintenance spares, is it possible to refit these into a wartime variant, or is it too time consuming / expensive to bother? refitting ships from one class to another can be done, and is relatively faster and cheaper the more similar the two classes are to each other, but is still not something you can do on the fly (it requires shipyard time and space, which is almost always at a premium).
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Dec 11, 2021 00:44
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Oh no, that isn't a fighter carrier. It's a mobile cargo transfer hub currently filled with short-ranged patrol vessels.
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Dec 11, 2021 01:04
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mossyfisk posted:Oh no, that isn't a fighter carrier. It's a mobile cargo transfer hub currently filled with short-ranged patrol vessels. Stop putting your Honor Harrington into my Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism
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Dec 11, 2021 01:11
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I jumped the gun posting my design submissions for our first armed ship so I’ll just quote the post. Bates, if you want me to type the designs up as text instead of screenshots, I can probably do that within the deadline. Pirate Radar posted:(skip to the end for designs)
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Dec 11, 2021 01:11
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Volmarias posted:Yeah, I'm not sure we should be awarding medals for not killing yourself in the name of war crimes you were ordered to commit for a nation that no longer existed, laudable as that is You give them the special medal that absolutely no one else gets that makes them utterly untrustworthy to their former comrades.
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Dec 12, 2021 15:42
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