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Gaz-L posted:Very torn about the Wonder Woman game announcement. Very cool that one's being made, but I feel like the one person who likes video games that HATES the Nemesis system and especially think it's a very weird choice here. I mean it might be worth actually seeing how it is executed instead of assuming that Wonder Woman is going to be branding orcs.
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Dec 10, 2021 04:33
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ImpAtom posted:I mean it might be worth actually seeing how it is executed instead of assuming that Wonder Woman is going to be branding orcs. I assume it'll be the Lasso and doing the 'compels obedience' thing. And it's literally the mechanic I hate, not the aesthetic implementation, although I do think that also has some... iffy implications if it's the route they go. It tries to dress up a transparent attempt to pass off 'emergent narrative' as just as deep as a genuinely crafted one when it's basically just a handful of modifiers and canned lines. I'd much rather 4 or 5 really well designed and written bosses/antagonists over 30 generic enemies with 'The Vain' or 'The Cowardly' stapled on to their name to justify them being immune to stealth attacks. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Dec 10, 2021 |
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Dec 10, 2021 04:37
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I've always thought the Nemesis system was neat in theory but in practice it never quite felt right. Also doesn't help that outside of that the actual gameplay of those games was just kind of unimaginative.
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Dec 10, 2021 04:55
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Gaz-L posted:I assume it'll be the Lasso and doing the 'compels obedience' thing. And it's literally the mechanic I hate, not the aesthetic implementation, although I do think that also has some... iffy implications if it's the route they go. I think that's pretty dismissive of what the Nemesis System actually did. Yes it was in the end a large series of modifiers but it was a significantly large series of modifiers that responded to your actions. That is what video games are when you boil things down to it. In terms of what open world style games did it was (and is) significantly above pretty much everything else on the market in terms of giving flavor to generic areas. It isn't going to be as well-crafted as a dedicated villain but open world games are pretty universally designed to be about width, not depth, of content and the Nemesis System pulls that off well. Arguably the biggest flaw it has is that the games are so easy that you don't get to see large chunks of how it plays out unless you're not very good at games.
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Dec 10, 2021 06:23
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One good thing that their use of the Nemesis system suggests is that there will be a variety of weapons, types of attacks, and other enemies, NPCs, and objects that figure in combat because they need to have a lot of different things to be strong/weak against for the system to be interesting.
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Dec 10, 2021 17:00
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The nemesis system could be very neat, but this was just a CG Teaser, so who knows how many years before we see how it's actually used.
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Dec 10, 2021 17:34
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That last Lord of the Rings game was pretty rough, so before I start worrying about the Nemesis system I need to see if the foundation of the Wonder Woman game is any good at all.
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Dec 10, 2021 23:05
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Oh, a gameplay trailer for Suicide Squad? Huh.
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Dec 10, 2021 23:47
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JordanKai posted:That last Lord of the Rings game was pretty rough, so before I start worrying about the Nemesis system I need to see if the foundation of the Wonder Woman game is any good at all. I mean, sexy Medusa is much more in keeping with the source material here than sexy Shelob
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Dec 11, 2021 01:39
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Gaz-L posted:I mean, sexy Medusa is much more in keeping with the source material here than sexy Shelob Shelob has always been sexy, just in a different way than the videogame showed.
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Dec 11, 2021 02:24
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So it kind of looks like the Guardians game, but with more "edge"? And rather than playing as one guy whose thing is "Guns" and giving orders to 4 NPC characters for Melee and AOE, you play as 4 guys, whose thing is "Guns" and "Occasionally Melee/AOE" Did I miss anything?
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Dec 11, 2021 02:32
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The one thing I'm concerned about is that all 4 characters will play the same. Like, logically KS and Harley should be your tank and melee DPS, Deadshot is big single target damage and Boomer does CC. But the trailer makes it look like they all kinda do the same stuff.
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Dec 11, 2021 02:46
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CzarChasm posted:So it kind of looks like the Guardians game, but with more "edge"? It is by an entirely different studio and is unlikely to play remotely like that game.
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Dec 11, 2021 02:56
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I'm getting Infamous vibes from the Suicide Squad game, but not in a good way. Nothing about it has grabbed me and I can't believe Rocksteady has spent so much time on this of all things.
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Dec 11, 2021 03:00
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Monolith has made more games than just Shadows of Mordor
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Dec 11, 2021 03:48
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JordanKai posted:That last Lord of the Rings game was pretty rough, so before I start worrying about the Nemesis system I need to see if the foundation of the Wonder Woman game is any good at all. Shadow of War was very good (Well plot was mediocre but everything else was pretty great honestly)
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Dec 11, 2021 04:30
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Codependent Poster posted:I'm getting Infamous vibes from the Suicide Squad game, but not in a good way. Nothing about it has grabbed me and I can't believe Rocksteady has spent so much time on this of all things. I was thinking Saints Row 4/Agents of Mayhem.
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Dec 11, 2021 04:30
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Blockhouse posted:Monolith has made more games than just Shadows of Mordor Yes but the press release mentions those specifically and says Wonder Woman will use the Nemesis system. Plus the Arkham style combat and stylised Assassin's Creed traversal is a good fit for WW
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Dec 11, 2021 12:14
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Gaz-L posted:The one thing I'm concerned about is that all 4 characters will play the same. Like, logically KS and Harley should be your tank and melee DPS, Deadshot is big single target damage and Boomer does CC. But the trailer makes it look like they all kinda do the same stuff. The one thing I will say about that trailer is it does a good job in showing how each character moves. Like from looking at it, Deadshot seems to be all about a jetpack that lets him circle strafe around enemies or go above them to get verticality. It makes him seem like he wants to keep distance with enemies at all times, which makes sense if he is guns4pro. While King Shark looks to be about huge leaps and climbing up surfaces. So he is about closing the gap and getting in enemies faces....before biting them off. While Harley Quinn seems to use a grapple to swing around areas to make for hit and run attacks, Captain Boomerangs agile sliding moves and super speed dashing seems like he wants to be close to enemy groups but always moving. That could form a very interesting gameplay core that might be fun and offer a unique feel to all four characters, while letting you build up a preferred character/playstyle. Or it might be reparative and bad. It also looks like it has some teamwork system to reward one character assisting another one. It's early days and it's not the type of game I would associate with the Suicide Squad (which I think should have been just a huge roster of C-list villains who die and get rotated out) but there might be something to this game.
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Dec 11, 2021 13:12
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And even with the delay, we're still getting AAA Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and "Gotham heroes who aren't Batman" games before we've ever gotten an AAA Superman or Justice League game. weird to contemplate https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1488930672987324423?s=20&t=ZtqjbbopdQMr0AjOqI1LNA
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Feb 2, 2022 19:11
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Barry Convex posted:And even with the delay, we're still getting AAA Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and "Gotham heroes who aren't Batman" games before we've ever gotten an AAA Superman or Justice League game. weird to contemplate It was a commercial failure, but I think Superman Returns was triple A, wasn't it?
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Feb 2, 2022 19:50
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Skwirl posted:It was a commercial failure, but I think Superman Returns was triple A, wasn't it? AAA is a hazy, subjective term, and 2006 was a very different time, but yeah, it was internally developed at Electronic Arts. I'd imagine that a big-budget Justice League game has the same problem that a Superman game does: it's difficult to present them with a threat big enough to be realistically dangerous. A Justice League game also features the big narrative swing where you need to figure out how to let players use both Batman and the six or seven walking deities that he gets to boss around.
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Feb 2, 2022 19:55
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Barry Convex posted:And even with the delay, we're still getting AAA Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and "Gotham heroes who aren't Batman" games before we've ever gotten an AAA Superman or Justice League game. weird to contemplate This game is gonna come out like 5 years later than it should have. It's gonna be such a disaster.
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Feb 2, 2022 20:15
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Barry Convex posted:And even with the delay, we're still getting AAA Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and "Gotham heroes who aren't Batman" games before we've ever gotten an AAA Superman or Justice League game. weird to contemplate I'd like a Daredevil game that plays off the Arkham games' detective vision thing. Also, another god damned Hulk: Ultimate Destruction game.
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Feb 2, 2022 20:26
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I honestly don't know how you do a team game that isn't just Ultimate Alliance style without it turning into a massive counter-productive cost sink. Especially when the characters all have wildly distinct gimmicks. Superman game, though, that's a creative problem that just needs a creative solution
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Feb 2, 2022 20:38
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OnimaruXLR posted:I honestly don't know how you do a team game that isn't just Ultimate Alliance style without it turning into a massive counter-productive cost sink. Especially when the characters all have wildly distinct gimmicks. We're getting that Midnight Sons thing which has a lot of different characters, so it can be done but the problem is they want to chase whatever's the current hotness.
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Feb 2, 2022 20:41
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Wanderer posted:AAA is a hazy, subjective term, and 2006 was a very different time, but yeah, it was internally developed at Electronic Arts. OnimaruXLR posted:I honestly don't know how you do a team game that isn't just Ultimate Alliance style without it turning into a massive counter-productive cost sink. Especially when the characters all have wildly distinct gimmicks. I think people have mostly enjoyed the actual gameplay of the recent Avengers game, they just don't like the "games as service" aspect. And yeah, it doesn't have a Superman or Flash, but it's got Hulk and Thor along with Captain America
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Feb 2, 2022 20:43
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It's a poor comparison. Marvel's Avengers is using a vague spin on the MCU, where the dials are set lower than the comics and the characters are distinctly more vulnerable. They're certainly powerful, but not so powerful that you can't present them with legitimate challenges. Superman, by comparison, presents design issues that have been discussed for over a decade now, because good Superman stories are rarely if ever about the risk that Superman himself might fail in a significant way or die. Superman Returns is generally seen as the core of a good idea for how to adapt the character to a game, where it's essentially an escort mission but your escortee is an entire city. The execution was poor, though, and it arguably came out too early. If you power Superman down for the adaptation, it's rightly going to be seen as the coward's way out. If you do something like start him early in his career when his powers aren't anywhere near their peak yet, so you have the ability for his abilities to meaningfully improve, you might be able to get some good references in there but it's not quite a Superman story. Realistically, though, nobody's going to be all that interested in solving the Superman issue in game design when they could just make a game about almost any other DC character instead. It's not just a problem in search of a creative solution; it's a problem that's so difficult to solve that nobody's particularly interested, especially right now when WB is in a severe cash crunch and has never been less interested in experimentation.
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Feb 2, 2022 21:04
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I’ve been replaying Prototype 2 and while it’s way too 2010s edgy, it’s a pretty fun super hero/venom video game
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Feb 2, 2022 21:25
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A lot of the problems of making a decent Superman game go away or are much easier to deal with if the open world Metropolis focus is abandoned. There don't seem to be many superheroes who actually go out on patrol or have unique/fun traversal so the open world city stuff is often trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Even Batman, who is one of the few who legit does patrol when he's between cases has the immensely popular Arkham series that was kicked off without an open world Gotham. (And when we did get more of the city to play in after that, each game had a contrived scenario for only playing in sections of the city with almost nobody around.) The vast majority of them should be more linear, mission-based games.
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Feb 2, 2022 21:35
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Lobok posted:A lot of the problems of making a decent Superman game go away or are much easier to deal with if the open world Metropolis focus is abandoned. The issue there is that Batman is a dude with a grappling hook. Superman is defined by flying. You need some form of open world.
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Feb 2, 2022 21:39
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Give Superman his own skyloft consisting of the JL satellite and an "overworld map" of assorted locations throughout the DCU that he can then descend upon like they're individual zones If No Man's Sky can smoke and mirrors up interplanetary cosmic scale, I'm sure it can be done for a single planet
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Feb 2, 2022 21:55
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ImpAtom posted:The issue there is that Batman is a dude with a grappling hook. Superman is defined by flying. You need some form of open world. Why? He's known for flying but he's also known for flying fast! You've got this inherent problem of giving him enough space to make flying fun or accurate to his character but having to populate that large space with enough content and detail to make it interesting and look halfway decent for an "AAA" game. And the whole thing about Superman's traversal is to avoid interacting with the environment at all. Up, up, and away and fly over everything. At least someone like Flash hugs the ground. Maybe it is actually possible now with PS5 SSDs but I think it is wasted effort when the benefits of a more linear mission-based game could play to his strengths more.
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Feb 2, 2022 21:59
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Lobok posted:Why? He's known for flying but he's also known for flying fast! You've got this inherent problem of giving him enough space to make flying fun or accurate to his character but having to populate that large space with enough content and detail to make it interesting and look halfway decent for an "AAA" game. And the whole thing about Superman's traversal is to avoid interacting with the environment at all. Up, up, and away and fly over everything. At least someone like Flash hugs the ground. A linear game still requires enough space for him to fly unless you are making a rail shooter.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:25
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Linear doesn't (have to) mean going down a corridor. Each new area can have plenty of space for flying or aerial battles. The Superman Returns game actually did this, albeit briefly. Trying to adhere to the movie's story, it inserts a section where Superman is on Warworld to explain his absence from Earth. But the rest of the game is Metropolis.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:33
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Lobok posted:Linear doesn't (have to) mean going down a corridor. Each new area can have plenty of space for flying or aerial battles. The issue there is that is a ton more work than an open world. Creating a linear relatively open area still involved a crapton of space. The developers of Sonic discussed once how a linear Sonic level has to be absurdly huge due to the pace and those are still mostly jumping.
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Feb 2, 2022 22:44
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Codependent Poster posted:This game is gonna come out like 5 years later than it should have. It's gonna be such a disaster. I'm guessing that SS:KTJL has not actually been in development for quite as long as it seems and that Rocksteady's first big post-Arkham Knight project was cancelled, especially since WB Montreal was developing its own Suicide Squad game for part of that period. maybe more information about that will come out at some point Skwirl posted:It was a commercial failure, but I think Superman Returns was triple A, wasn't it? I don't think it was that high-budget even by 2006 standards, but I could be wrong Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Feb 2, 2022 |
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Feb 2, 2022 23:14
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OnimaruXLR posted:
It's been done. Like others have mentioned, Superman Returns gave Metropolis/the city itself the life bar instead of Superman himself and also had pretty cool flight mechanics. It was a really creative solution to the problem of an overpowered and invulnerable hero but failed in its execution and was kind of lazy. With a little more effort, a developer could build off that and then, later, move Superman into space and on some crazy planet or some poo poo where he can face physical challenges.
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Feb 2, 2022 23:47
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ImpAtom posted:The issue there is that is a ton more work than an open world. Creating a linear relatively open area still involved a crapton of space. The developers of Sonic discussed once how a linear Sonic level has to be absurdly huge due to the pace and those are still mostly jumping. I don't follow. If a Sonic level has to be huge because you're going fast along a prescribed path wouldn't an open world have to be vastly bigger since the player can go that fast but in any direction? Haven't played a Sonic game since Genesis so I dunno. Again though, the point isn't just about how many total square kilometers you can create. It's whether you can create a better experience by having way more control and flexibility with the environments and enemy encounters by not fitting everything into the same cityscape the whole game (and presumably he's going to be going inside much).
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Feb 3, 2022 02:37
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Lobok posted:I don't follow. If a Sonic level has to be huge because you're going fast along a prescribed path wouldn't an open world have to be vastly bigger since the player can go that fast but in any direction? Haven't played a Sonic game since Genesis so I dunno. The issue is that with an open world, you make one space. With those big linear levels, you have to make several bespoke ones for each mission.
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Feb 3, 2022 02:41
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