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Spangly A posted:are you having a bad day? if you're surprised that corbyn's siding with literally all of the unions then I'm not sure you remember very much about him nobody has said someone's name sounds like a star wars character today so they are baving a bad day
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Dec 15, 2021 00:32
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namesake posted:Vaccines aren't completely sterilising, you need mounds of PPE as well which works whether you're vaccinated or not. This isn't an argument against mandatory vaccinations.
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Dec 15, 2021 00:35
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Jose posted:nobody has said someone's name sounds like a star wars character today so they are baving a bad day lol
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Dec 15, 2021 00:35
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Oh Jeremy -efb- YerDa Zabam has issued a correction as of 00:45 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 00:38
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endlessmonotony posted:This isn't an argument against mandatory vaccinations. It might render it unnecessary or make the difference so small that it isnt worth doing though.
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Dec 15, 2021 00:42
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well, first, custodial staff etc do not typically have patients. clinical members of staff vaccinated would put their patients in almost exactly the same quantity of danger in current conditions given one or two of the shots most used in this country do not provide a significant protective effect against symptomatic illness against the strain of the disease currently either on track to be or already the dominant strain in the UK. their patients will not be protected at all. even if their patients themselves were vaccinated in the ideal period of immunity following a third dose of an MRNA vaccine, one of a handful of combinations of vaccines we have good evidence work against omicron (and we know two shots of AJ do not work) it would still be extremely irresponsible to rely on that limited transmission protection in any kind of clinical setting. and everywhere else these things are still true and as such the most significant protective and preventative measure is and always has been effective PPE and other bog standard infection prevention NPIs. incidentally something that NHS is still routinely under provisioned for, with the exact people we're discussing being asked to do essential work often in clinical settings using flimsy surgical masks. if we wanted to protect patients i would do literally, literally anything else, any other intervention at all, i could write a laundry list about thirty feet long of better interventions in terms of patient safety. if i wanted to do the opposite i think i could do worse than incentivizing even more essential staff to leave at the worst imaginable time.
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Dec 15, 2021 00:43
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Jose posted:nobody has said someone's name sounds like a star wars character today so they are baving a bad day
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Dec 15, 2021 00:44
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CoolCab posted:well, first, custodial staff etc do not typically have patients. clinical members of staff vaccinated would put their patients in almost exactly the same quantity of danger in current conditions given one or two of the shots most used in this country do not provide a significant protective effect against symptomatic illness against the strain of the disease currently either on track to be or already the dominant strain in the UK. their patients will not be protected at all. If they're incentivized to leave due to mandatory vaccinations, let them. Yes, including the ones that aren't patient-facing unless they're purely WFH. People working in the same place infect each other, and the vaccine isn't perfect at keeping you from spreading the disease, which is all the more reason for everyone to have it. I've been on the side for mandatory vaccinations for any non-WFH work for months. Anyone opposed can get in the sea and try to evolve away from lungs.
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Dec 15, 2021 00:54
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oh
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Dec 15, 2021 00:55
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endlessmonotony posted:If they're incentivized to leave due to mandatory vaccinations, let them. Yes, including the ones that aren't patient-facing unless they're purely WFH. People working in the same place infect each other, and the vaccine isn't perfect at keeping you from spreading the disease, which is all the more reason for everyone to have it.
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Dec 15, 2021 01:04
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https://twitter.com/Antonio_Caramia/status/1470806503779188738?s=20
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Dec 15, 2021 01:23
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These policies combine the heavy hand of a real state with the theatrical inefficacy of the gutted state we have, and I’m a little surprised at the vehemence of the favour they’re finding here. There are a number of fair lines of attack on Corbyn but this one is duff imo. If you’re going to enforce vaccination do it properly, the ~heroes of the NHS~ double standard is loving people off as it is
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Dec 15, 2021 01:27
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some people are extraordinarily dumb, and do incredibly embarrassing things like toxx for hilary or be endlessmonotony, and they're quite often implausibly still comfortable telling anyone what to do ever again. such is life.
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Dec 15, 2021 01:31
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Shogi posted:These policies combine the heavy hand of a real state with the theatrical inefficacy of the gutted state we have, and I’m a little surprised at the vehemence of the favour they’re finding here. There are a number of fair lines of attack on Corbyn but this one is duff imo. If you’re going to enforce vaccination do it properly, the ~heroes of the NHS~ double standard is loving people off as it is they're all libs op
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Dec 15, 2021 01:31
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I mean, honestly I don't much care anymore. General mandatory vaccination would have been a great policy sometime in Summer for the UK and Fall at the latest for the rest of Europe. Might even now save quite a few lives. Vaxxing all NHS related janitors was a pretty decent idea, maybe, this Spring?
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Dec 15, 2021 01:33
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Mandatory vaccines for everyone who wants them. Rather than demanding mandatory vaccines they'd have been better making sure fewer people need to take public transport but lol, if people don't have to go to the office then think about the poor landlords
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Dec 15, 2021 01:57
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vaccine mandates are stalinist (good)
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Dec 15, 2021 02:03
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SMILLENNIALSMILLEN posted:vaccine mandates are stalinist (good) you convinced me
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Dec 15, 2021 02:24
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Dec 15, 2021 02:25
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everybody saying how vaccine mandates won't help at all this christmas you're entirely right but also consider: what about next christmas
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Dec 15, 2021 03:01
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too soon to make meaningful statements about long term vaccine efficacy that far out. I would probably pitch a much more seasonally attuned schedule but I would need good data. mandates by chunks for sure will be as dumb now as then, though, and a vaccine and test only strategy will fail exactly as hard.
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Dec 15, 2021 03:11
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COVID passes as entry requirements (as implemented in the UK) require access to smartphones. That's real bad news for the homeless and elderly when we're in what looks to be an especially deadly winter.
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Dec 15, 2021 06:01
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Vaccine mandates and vax passes for plague Island are good actually Maybe if you're too busy fighting over privacy, you'll stop exporting covid and Tory local government CEOs
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Dec 15, 2021 08:17
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the red pill / blue pill scene from the matrix but they are replaced with a vaccine and a P45
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Dec 15, 2021 08:47
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kecske posted:the red pill / blue pill scene from the matrix but they are replaced with a vaccine and a P45
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Dec 15, 2021 09:19
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I dislike using this account but it is easym anyway yet more hosed stuff from her https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1471044602450882565?t=lmuIB179jr8EYGLMtvTA2w&s=19
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Dec 15, 2021 10:45
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The British press https://twitter.com/Obscurantistz/status/1470861064522903560?t=bSel9FGT-kxwGv0O112Ijw&s=19
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Dec 15, 2021 10:58
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At this point everyone who could be convinced to get vaccinated voluntarily has been convinced. Noone's going to change their mind. Unfortunately, the level of uptake is insufficient to create the proper level of herd immunity. Covid is so infectious, you need somewhere in the order of 95% of the population to be vaccinated to get the R0 below 1 with vaccination alone. So at this point you either mandate vaccines for everyone whether they like it or not, or you resign yourself to NPI measures like lockdowns, masking, distancing, working from home, for years and years to come. This latter course will of course keep the hospitalizations and deaths rolling as well, with variable levels of NPI measures see-sawing the infection rate up and down. So at this point the choice is really between the lesser of two evils : forcing people to get a shot, or having millions of people die, who would otherwise live. I just can't see how this is even a debate.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:15
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because for the reasons articulated pretending that the current generation of vaccines can do that - provide any significant level of herd immunity, specifically, flies completely against all emperical evidence we have of how the vaccine performs in real world settings. it is as if not more anti-scientific than the people past year insisting we should all get it for herd immunity. both of these strategies have failed, not will fail (because the vaccines are not sterilisIng and do not influence transmission adequately to blunt large waves, because reinfection is demonstrated over and over again) we know with absolute certainty this is true, now. the dichotomy you present, that either we get shots or NPIs in fact clearly illustrates the clear and present danger of the strategy. if you are reliant on only vaccines to address this pandemic I can advise you to stop paying into a pension as endemic covid and the protection the current generation of vaccines means your life expectancy just lost a few decades.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:29
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say goodbye to Grandma and hope sincerely you have no known or unknown preexisting conditions, and if so can I have your stuff e: oh, also you man you know what is incredible at providing pre-existing cardiovascular and other serious conditions that increase your risk of dying of covid (like organ damage): a previous bout of covid! CoolCab has issued a correction as of 11:34 on Dec 15, 2021 |
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Dec 15, 2021 11:31
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how the gently caress did this toilet species ever manage to eradicate smallpox and get measles under control (until, you know)
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Dec 15, 2021 11:42
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She's getting ready to be next prime minister https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1471045885446533129?t=0d7t_2i2CmsFDNcrjr6XEQ&s=19
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Dec 15, 2021 11:43
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Ah cool https://www.jpost.com/bds-threat/uk-to-outlaw-bds-in-the-following-months-conservative-mp-says-688753
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Dec 15, 2021 11:47
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Jose posted:She's getting ready to be next prime minister She's turned into Hilary Clinton?
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Dec 15, 2021 11:48
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redleader posted:how the gently caress did this toilet species ever manage to eradicate smallpox and get measles under control (until, you know) the inverse is of course "why don't we have a cure for the common cold", and much more relevant to this discussion. because disease isn't a tickbox, the specific qualities of the particular bacteria or virus and the specifics of the associated vaccine technology determines how we can address any given pathogen. intervention is like any other in medicine - evidence based and outcome driven. let's say the eight ball is displaying OUTLOOKS NOT SO GOOD while spraying blood rn
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Dec 15, 2021 11:49
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CoolCab posted:because for the reasons articulated pretending that the current generation of vaccines can do that - provide any significant level of herd immunity, specifically, flies completely against all emperical evidence we have of how the vaccine performs in real world settings. it is as if not more anti-scientific than the people past year insisting we should all get it for herd immunity. both of these strategies have failed, not will fail (because the vaccines are not sterilisIng and do not influence transmission adequately to blunt large waves, because reinfection is demonstrated over and over again) we know with absolute certainty this is true, now. I'm not saying we're in a situation where we can rely on vaccines alone to contain the epidemic - we're not even close. But that's the 'goal' situation. There's a whole host of diseases that we're controlling with just vaccines, because they're included in childhood vaccination programmes that have high uptake. Maybe that's very difficult for a corona virus. Delta has a R0 of 6-8. If 20% of the population is unvaccinated, that's a baseline of 1.2 - 1.6 (ignoring imperfect vaccine protection). That means anywhere where restrictions are loosened, exponential case growth is pretty much guaranteed. If vaccine uptake is high enough to make the baseline non-NPI R0 below 1, this whole thing becomes a lot easier to control. Things are of course more complicated than that, with vaccines losing effectiveness, and variants evolving vaccine escape properties, so all sorts of measures will have to be on the table for the forseeable future. But it just seems insane to me that we're not going for the low-hanging fruit of broad vaccine coverage. Not to mention the fact that a fully vaccinated population would only require about half the ICU beds that are currently needed for covid, and free up healthcare resources for non-covid care that has been deprioritized the last two years. I don't understand why we're willing to accept so much death and misery that could be avoided.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:51
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Philonius posted:
What if we don't do either though, it's worked so far, nobody has got in trouble
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Dec 15, 2021 11:52
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forkboy84 posted:She's turned into Hilary Clinton? She's by far the most popular Tory MP with the membership bdcahss they all love pig cum so much
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Dec 15, 2021 11:52
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Communist Thoughts posted:What if we don't do either though, it's worked so far, nobody has got in trouble Ah yes, of course. I was writing from the perspective of 'this grave danger to society should be managed' , which as we all know is actually completely optional in the 21st century.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:53
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i do think that a general policy of mandatory vaccinations makes some degree of sense, in that it's theoretically workable and would significantly increase the number of vaccinated people. i'm not convinced that it's where we want to go, but it at least is coherent: one sacrifices one principle (that of choice) for another (public health/safety). all these weird technocratic half-measures are worse than useless: they are not likely to make an appreciable difference to the actual vaccination rates, and they simultaneously entrench a deep and bitter social division on an issue which absolutely demands co-ordination and cohesion. punishing the non-vaccinated is certainly satisfying, but there's very little indication that it's a good strategy.
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Dec 15, 2021 11:55
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