(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
|
Forgive for the snark but it's funny to not get what one person saying only to have another person go "You don't know what the movie's doing" and explain their counter back to them. I guess i'll throw in my two cents real quick: Having one good scene in a vacuum doesn't give a "Use slurs like ever other wack comedy " pass for the rest of the film. Without that vacuum the slurs are just drops in the water among many others to me compared to that one scene so i don't give a drat. Unless we figure how to stop people being being dicks rather than change the words they use to be dicks, I'll take what i can get it. It's fair to say "That sucks" and it's a shame people including critics had trouble grasping that.
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 06:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 20:34 |
|
|
DC Murderverse posted:But that’s why it’s aged so poorly: that has largely changed. The casual use of that word, especially in comedies, has changed dramatically over the last decade or so, largely due to the same sorts of groups that came out and said “hey, this is demeaning” when Tropic Thunder came out. The blackface part hasn’t aged poorly because there’s nothing regressive about it’s use because the surrounding movie makes it very clear why it’s use is wrong. The parts about Simple Jack are, because of the demeaning language used through the rest of the movie making it unclear what the movie actually thinks about mentally disabled people. It was wrong then and is wrong now, but it’s taken a lot of work and time to get people to that point. To me, the Simple Jack bits were about how Hollywood reduced mental disability to a series list of codified tropes that did not reflect reality. Those tropes are still there, and Hollywood is more than happy to break them out, so I disagree that the Simple Jack bits aged poorly, because in the end its about how badly Hollywood handles issues of mental health. Dias posted:I think the issue was that Ben Stiller performing as the neurodiverse character was played for laughs and not really treated with the same disdain as RDJ's decision to go blackface was. It was more of a career fuckup and a bad performance instead of method acting as an excuse for racist poo poo. Really? Because I think it was played with just as much disdain as RDJ's character was. RDJ's character line "You never go full ______" underlines the contempt Hollywood has for the Mentally disabled under their figleaf of tolerance. Poor Miserable Gurgi posted:Jokes can also just be bad. Saying "it's comedy" doesn't excuse it from needing consistency in the point it's making. The movie mocks Hollywood portrayals of neurodivergence as condescending and hamfisted, and then goes on to play neurodivergence as a joke and throwing around slurs. You can't be a "salve for minor wounds" by making fresh cuts. I don't agree with this. Ben Stiller's Character is treated as a stupid meathead for even participating in Simple Jack. And again, you're expecting comedians to do the heavy lifting for the rest of society.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 06:36
|
|
|
Is it the Boondocks or similar where someone wrote an article about how satire is only effective up to a point? Like it can be the most well written and damning portrayal of something but it still doesn't matter because satire will always fail to reach a portion of the audience. RDJ's speech about comparing Gump, Rain Man and similar was good at pointing out that Hollywood loves fawning over neurodivergent portrayals so long as it makes people warm and fuzzy, and an actually seriously disabled person is where they go "eww, gross". The language is certainly dated but it nailed the absolute contempt awards and critics have for anything other then saccharine feel good stories over overcoming adversity. pentyne fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Dec 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 06:37
|
|
|
pentyne posted:It felt like it was a shot at Radio, the Cuba Gooding Jr movie and similar real films that basically turn a person with severe mental disabilities into a melodramatic "one of the good ones" mascot story. It's like how people will coo over videos of a person with down's syndrome doing a basic task the same as when they see a cat or dog do something uplifting. Sure, but that's my point, it's kinda like we're supposed to laugh at the bad acting job instead of Hollywood's behaviors like with RDJ's character. I guess it's a matter of perception, there's just something about the tone of the "movie" scenes that feels kinda mean-spirited towards the people being portrayed too. Dias fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Dec 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 06:41
|
|
|
Clip-On Fedora posted:I don't agree with this. Ben Stiller's Character is treated as a stupid meathead for even participating in Simple Jack. I know the movie is calling Stiller's character bad for doing the role, i literally said that myself in the post you quoted. The problem is there are then several extended scenes of him doing the character where the jokes are "he's doing a stereotypical autistic voice and talking about his dick". The movie undercuts its own point about his character. Also, i don't know what the gently caress you mean by heavy lifting. The movie is trying to say something about society and Hollywood. It wants you to listen to what it has to say. It just doesn't make all its points well.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 06:46
|
|
|
side_burned posted:This review reminds me I hate Gears of War it was single handedly responsible for ten years of two weapon limits, running down liner halls, hiding behind chest high walls and regenerating health. I hope that someday Civvie will unleash all his hate and anger on that loving game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 06:53
|
|
|
DC Murderverse posted:I’m gonna be honest I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Like I get that you’re trying to say that we shouldn’t expect comedy to solve societal issues. Maybe my comparison of a movie that has no desire to do so (Licorice Pizza) and a movie that exists to skewer Hollywood’s ideals was a bad one. The point I’m trying to make is that no matter what you make, whether it’s a studio comedy or an Oscar-bait drama or an indie dramedy, if you’re trying to make a joke out of someone being a bigot, you can’t just leave it at that because in your audience you’re going to have both people who it goes over the head of who think that it’s funny because it’s true and people for whom who don’t think it’s funny because they have to live with that poo poo. Seeing people uncritically saying those things with the implication that it’s funny because it’s absurd having no weight. As a writer, as a creator, You can't fix society. At most, you can' comment on it, at your point in time, at your point in space. Maybe your commentary will be right, maybe it will be wrong, but you can't develop a messiah complex over it. You can't force bad people to be good people with the force of your words alone. It's impossible. Despite your best intentions, you will wound a thousand people with a thousand cuts but the time you have reached you 30's. It's an unfortunate aspect of being alive, but it cannot be denied.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 06:55
|
|
|
Poor Miserable Gurgi posted:I know the movie is calling Stiller's character bad for doing the role, i literally said that myself in the post you quoted. The problem is there are then several extended scenes of him doing the character where the jokes are "he's doing a stereotypical autistic voice and talking about his dick". The movie undercuts its own point about his character. Depiction is not the same as endorsement. If you believe that, then I don't think we can have a conversation. Fools don't always make their point well. They're just hoping that you will listen to their foolish words and understand their intentions. Ghostlight posted:I think you are unduly maligning Gears of War there - both Halo and Call of Duty boasted two weapon limits and regenerating health several years before Gears came out. Yeah, that poo poo sucked.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:02
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:My scorching hot take is those people are going to exist no matter what. Django Unchained spent almost 3 hours showing how cruel and awful racism is and yet I hear white people quote like 3 lines with the n word in it and laugh every time. You didn’t read the second half of my post. I agree that racists are always gonna exist and that no one should make movies specifically with them in mind but you also have to consider the people who are the victims of every day bigotry who don’t want that poo poo in movies where they have no place. Going back to Licorice Pizza, the review Walter Chaw wrote about that movie did a much better job of explaining it than I could because he’s the one that’s feeling this: quote:I'm the furthest thing from surprised--but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt when it shows up where you least expect it. I am a huge fan of Anderson's work. More than good, I think it's important. More than important, I think it's art. What I'm sure was a hilarious anecdote shared by a friend that Anderson transcribed faithfully into his text lands as a devastating reminder of exactly how perpetually foreign Asians are considered in this society. Defenders of this garbage, I'll ask you the same Cloud Atlas question: if it's acceptable, why didn't you do it with any Black characters? (Well, there aren't any, for starters, but you take my meaning.) Here's the thing, it shows up in a movie by Paul Thomas Anderson--a filmmaker I adore--and even mentioning it gets most of your allies exchanging glances behind your back. There goes the mouthy chink, overreacting again.. This is why the battleground is always comedy. It’s one thing to encounter depiction of racism in a movie like Django where that’s sort of the point and one knows what they’re expecting going into it (but it’s also worth noting that Django was made with copious amounts of input from its black leads to help keep it from being exploitative) but it’s another when it comes out of nowhere and is done poorly, which is largely an issue with comedies. If you go into a movie from a director you like and out of nowhere there’s this poo poo that you have to deal with on a day-to-day basis, and it’s framed as this joke, it eats at you. The review starts with an examination of exactly why the joke doesn’t work if it’s supposed to be “satire”, which is how it’s always written off, but that’s who it actually hurts the most: the people who want to have the movie be the same sort of escapism that everyone else can see it as, but they can’t, because of one completely unnecessary element. Tropic Thunder has actual sartorial aims but it still falls victim to the same problem: someone who is mentally challenged is gonna go into this movie and they might enjoy 90% of it, but then there’s that 10% of it that reminds them how they’re seen by society and by the media. It’s no longer a communal experience because the movie is laughing at them. Sure, the character who made himself into a caricature is supposed to be the fool but if everyone, buffoon or not, is using the same verbiage with absolutely no corrective, then clearly the movie itself has a certain perspective and it’s not positive.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:04
|
|
|
Clip-On Fedora posted:Oh no, I get that. When I play Dark Souls 2 I can dress up as a jester and also murder 2.5 kings, ergo humor triumphs over all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:06
|
|
|
Clip-On Fedora posted:Depiction is not the same as endorsement. If you believe that, then I don't think we can have a conversation. You’re either atrocious at reading or willfully misreading people but either way I would not like to subscribe to your Patreon
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:06
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:When I play Dark Souls 2 I can dress up as a jester and also murder 2.5 kings, ergo humor triumphs over all. That sounds cool. Hope that happens in reality. DC Murderverse posted:You’re either atrocious at reading or willfully misreading people but either way I would not like to subscribe to your Patreon Good news! I don't have one. Good luck on your hero's journey.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:09
|
|
|
I don’t disagree with your point DC but I haven’t seen licorice pizza so I can’t comment on that movie. I get the point. I think we’re in a weird place where society changed really fast and while stuff was “bad then and bad now” there’s degrees of it that let things slip through and it makes things complicated and I don’t really know how to discuss it these days. And like I said a lot of this site does not consider the r word to be at the same level as other slurs. What this says I don’t entirely know but I think it’s something to consider i guess, and how that word is viewed now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:14
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:I don’t disagree with your point DC but I haven’t seen licorice pizza so I can’t comment on that movie. There are places on SA where you’ll get a probe for using that word, and progress here happens in fits and starts. There are always going to be variants in how spaces treat stuff like that, which you can see with how usage of all slurs has changed around here. I’m not saying that anyone who ever used that word or enjoyed a comedy with slurs or racism in it is bad, lord knows I have done both of those things (and not just with that one word), but the point is to be better going forward. We can look at old media and enjoy it with those caveats. You have to look at something holistically, take the good forward and leave the bad in the past.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:27
|
|
|
Yeah I agree with that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 07:32
|
|
|
Clip-On Fedora posted:I don't agree with this. Ben Stiller's Character is treated as a stupid meathead for even participating in Simple Jack. It's like if it had made fun of RDJ for putting on blackface by saying that he should have chosen to do yellowface instead.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:08
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:My scorching hot take is those people are going to exist no matter what. Django Unchained spent almost 3 hours showing how cruel and awful racism is and yet I hear white people quote like 3 lines with the n word in it and laugh every time. I mean, the movie pretty much outright says "gently caress these loving fucks, Sherman had the right idea." I'm also willing to bet that these idiots also think Tony Montana is just the coolest while the last third or so of the film sailed by, several miles above their heads.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:12
|
|
|
every character in the movie is kind of lovely person. They’re all deeply vapid self centered supremely flawed film people. Except maybe Jay’s character but it’s been a year since I’ve seen it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:13
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:He's treated as a stupid meathead for taking the wrong neurodivergent role. But the film doesn't actually condemn the actual act of taking neurodivergent roles for clout, and even tacitly approves of when actors like Hanks and Hoffman made the "right" choices with their "respectable" depictions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZEuWJ4muYc
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:14
|
|
|
Having said that, I will also say that that simply pointing out the absurdity of there being some sort of secret Hollywood insider's secret to "correctly" appropriating mental illness is, well, sort of lampshading and thereby scrutinizing that very process of appropriation. It's just not exactly crystal clear if the thing they're humorously ragging on is "there's a secret cheat code here" or "this entire process is bonkers."
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:26
|
|
|
Considering the man giving the advice in the film is an insanely pretentious actor so far up his rear end he went out of his way to get a procedure done so darken his skin to play a black man in a war film…I’d say maybe that advice shouldn’t be taken super seriously.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:28
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:Having said that, I will also say that that simply pointing out the absurdity of there being some sort of secret Hollywood insider's secret to "correctly" appropriating mental illness is, well, sort of lampshading and thereby scrutinizing that very process of appropriation. I mean look at who is giving that speech in first place: the guy who surgically blackened himself for a movie but failed to learn anything about the person he was playing and just used stereotypes to fill in the blanks. edit: yeah, what he said. Again, the problem isn’t the intent or the message, it’s the fact that the way that the other characters (the ones who are not signaled as pretentious buffoons) talk about disabled people, the fact that there’s no representation for disabled people, and the language the entire movie uses. All that undermines the point by dehumanizing the people it’s trying to represent DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Dec 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:30
|
|
|
Perhaps. I feel like the delivery came across almost like the Kill Bil Superman/Clark Kent speech where like...sure, okay, consider the source, but also......someone put a whole lot of thought into making this advice sound kind of coherent and like it could be taken at face value.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:38
|
|
|
ok but now we have to know what is the thread opinion on "The Full Retard" by El-P
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 08:43
|
|
|
side_burned posted:This review reminds me I hate Gears of War it was single handedly responsible for ten years of two weapon limits, running down liner halls, hiding behind chest high walls and regenerating health. I hope that someday Civvie will unleash all his hate and anger on that loving game. Gears of War owns.  There's nothing wrong with things like two weapon limits and regenerating health if it's a shooter trying to be a bit more grounded than boomer shooters are. The problem is when they put that stuff in games that really don't support that style of game like Duke Nukem Forever. I get being frustrated with that style of shooter when every shooter was like that for a while post CoD4, but we're living in a boomer shooter renaissance right now so just play a boomer shooter? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 09:41
|
|
|
just make what you want to make and don't really worry about people 'misinterpreting it' or whatever lol. the point of art isnt to fix society or make people less racist. you can criticize if something handles racism or whatever stupidly obviously but its weird how often people go 'well someone (who isn't me) might misinterpret this' like thats a problem. you could show the little engine that could to a hundred people and at least one person would interpret it as being about how communism breaks the bodies of the people who suffer under it. who cares. and idk. i havent seen licorice pizza either but speaking generally the problem with framing it as 'well the people who deal with this daily...' is that, a lot of people who deal with it daily, won't, care. im autistic and theres some mental illness/autism jokes ive laughed at and some ive found offensive, and i find a lot of well-meaning, intended to be taken seriously depictions where the creators talk about how much attention they paid to autistic people and how they consulted with them, more offensive than throwaway jokes. or like, i find that game by the life is strange devs with a trans protag, tell me why, 100x more offensive than throwaway tranny jokes in old episodes of family guy. stuff's complicated. no two people are gonna have the same reactions. its fine to criticize and talk about stuff but the conversation almost always goes into absolutes that put people on both sides on the defensive when even looking exclusively at the 'groups affected,' there's never going to be absolutes except in the most extreme circumstances. edit: And when I see the 'do better' and 'look at bad stuff and acknowledge its bad' talking points im like... who's deciding what's bad or 'worse' than what we have now? you? me? god? Endorph fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Dec 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 11:48
|
|
|
I always took the Simple Jack stuff coming from RDJ to be making fun of how Hollywood accepts a certain kind of "mentally disabled" acting as a shortcut for accolades and yeah as others have already said it comes straight out of a Hollywood dummy's mouth it's why he says it as straight advice. Not related to the serious discussion but I think Tropic Thunder is the hardest I've laughed at a movie in the theatres. Pretty much every actor kills it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 12:33
|
|
|
SpiritualDeath posted:ok but now we have to know what is the thread opinion on "The Full Retard" by El-P It loving slaps, but "Oh Hail No" should've been a single.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 16:24
|
|
|
Endorph posted:just make what you want to make and don't really worry about people 'misinterpreting it' or whatever lol. the point of art isnt to fix society or make people less racist. you can criticize if something handles racism or whatever stupidly obviously but its weird how often people go 'well someone (who isn't me) might misinterpret this' like thats a problem. you could show the little engine that could to a hundred people and at least one person would interpret it as being about how communism breaks the bodies of the people who suffer under it. who cares. Tell Me Why is a funny case because I've seen quite a few trans reviewers trash the game for how it handled trans issues while all the cis reviewers fawned over that aspect. It's a pretty good example of how there needs to be more non-white and non-cis voices at these publications that can write about these things as the ones already there get buried under all the noise.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 16:46
|
|
|
Given the Life is Strange dev's inability to write teenagers, which is a state of life all of them presumably went through, I think trusting them with anything more sensitive is a losing proposition.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 17:21
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:Given the Life is Strange dev's inability to write teenagers, which is a state of life all of them presumably went through, I think trusting them with anything more sensitive is a losing proposition. Writing teenagers is pretty hard. You see comic writers trip into the same pitfalls. If you don’t actually talk to teenagers or kids regularly, you forget what it’s like. Then the closest point of contact becomes something like Buffy and….
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 17:25
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:Given the Life is Strange dev's inability to write teenagers, which is a state of life all of them presumably went through, I think trusting them with anything more sensitive is a losing proposition. Nuns with Guns posted:Writing teenagers is pretty hard. You see comic writers trip into the same pitfalls. If you don’t actually talk to teenagers or kids regularly, you forget what it’s like. Then the closest point of contact becomes something like Buffy and…. These two things together, combined with recent news about X-Men TAS getting a continuation, of course makes me think of Jubilee. Writing kids of any kind is impossible for some people, especially if they want their fictional kids to be "cool" to all the real kids.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 17:35
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:Tell Me Why is a funny case because I've seen quite a few trans reviewers trash the game for how it handled trans issues while all the cis reviewers fawned over that aspect. It's a pretty good example of how there needs to be more non-white and non-cis voices at these publications that can write about these things as the ones already there get buried under all the noise. I don't really know how well the trans issies were/weren't handled but a big problem is they make such a big deal over having a trans character and after the first 30 minutes the game really does nothing that couldn't have been done as with a cis character aside from 1-2 blatantly telegraphed "oh youre a trans now" lines from NPCs. Game felt rushed and unfinished, and that its entire commercial identity was "you play as a trans character"
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 18:06
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:Tell Me Why is a funny case because I've seen quite a few trans reviewers trash the game for how it handled trans issues while all the cis reviewers fawned over that aspect. It's a pretty good example of how there needs to be more non-white and non-cis voices at these publications that can write about these things as the ones already there get buried under all the noise. That reminds me of seeing some folks revisiting the original Candyman in the wake of the new one. White folks tend to be super effusive in their praise of its commentary of social issues whereas POC folks point out that while yeah, that's there, it's both A) background and B) told through the lens of a white woman's POV. The new one is much more on the nose about A and also does away with B by having Black protagonists and it certainly comes across as a different movie (if muddled by the end).
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
Candyman is helped by just being a good movie. Then you know critics have to come up with excuses for liking a horror movie, because being serious film persons liking a horror movie on its own merits is beneath them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
the new candyman was extremely made exclusively for white people as evidenced by the ridiculous scenes where they halt everything to explain to the audience what gentrification is. im just saying this bc im still mad at how bad it wasEndorph posted:just make what you want to make and don't really worry about people 'misinterpreting it' or whatever lol. the point of art isnt to fix society or make people less racist. you can criticize if something handles racism or whatever stupidly obviously but its weird how often people go 'well someone (who isn't me) might misinterpret this' like thats a problem. yeah!
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 19:50
|
|
|
fun hater posted:the new candyman was extremely made exclusively for white people as evidenced by the ridiculous scenes where they halt everything to explain to the audience what gentrification is. im just saying this bc im still mad at how bad it was That's only because most white folks in the audience going to see the film are like Bobby Hill talking to John Redcorn. "Are you sure it's the white man who did all that stuff? Because I come from white people and this is the first I'm hearing of it."
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 20:16
|
|
|
Movie studios sometimes tell people what to put into their movies. The scene in the school bathroom with the collection of white teenage pop-culture archetypes getting slaughtered tells me there was already a lot DaCosta refused to compromise on. When I saw that part, I immediately heard a Rich Evans sleazy studio executive voice going “make it like Stranger Things!” which I assume we got a vestigial snippet of with them recontexualized as bullies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:That's only because most white folks in the audience going to see the film are like Bobby Hill talking to John Redcorn. "Are you sure it's the white man who did all that stuff? Because I come from white people and this is the first I'm hearing of it." they should not make movies specifically for those people
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 20:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 20:34 |
|
|
The internet has proven to me that you will never be able to make a piece of art that conveys its message to everyone. It's simply not possible. People will take an insane reading out of anything and you can't do a drat thing about it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2021 21:51
|
|