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That’s some head canon. Which is fine Saruman became evil way way before Sauron came back or was a big threat tho .
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Dec 18, 2021 12:36
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galagazombie posted:If they increase everything else, surely Rings of Power increase sexual potency? Do the Three extend how long you last in bed like they extend the beauty of forest realms? Does the One allow Sauron to control the lesser rings owners junk? Is Sauron’s control over the Nazgûl just the control a Viagra salesman has over nine very old men? I'm not sure it increases everything. The Ring- judging by Tolkien's own letters- can be considered the very essence of The Machine, appropriately enough for an artefact created by a Maiar of Aule. Its power is the same regardless of who wields it, much like a gun produces the same amount of kinetic energy regardless of who pulls the trigger; it is the wielder's skill, intelligence, knowledge and will that makes all the difference. A gardener, a lost king, a fallen angel all have differing "wills" and so gain different effects from the Ring, just as a child, a bank robber, and a soldier would gain different effects from pulling a gun's trigger. (Tolkien, a devout Catholic, has created an extraordinarily elegant mechanism to test his characters- the Ring's ability to tempt an individual increases with the willpower of the individual; and as willpower is often held to be the quality by which a person resists temptation, the Ring presents precisely the same level of temptation to every single person. Perhaps, when considering who will be corrupted by the Ring, only grace may serve as the x in this equation.) The essence of the Machine- and of the Ring- is the idea that the lines between "I can" and "I want" and "I will" and "I have" might become blurred, or even meaningless. The Ring of course emphasises the I in these statements; only I can bring order to the world; only my will may shape the earth. The user's will is paramount; the exercise (or, even, existence) of other free wills becomes, to the Ringbearer, an intolerable imposition. Other people may exist, of course, but even the smallest scrap of self-actualisation they possess represents a corner of the universe not utterly under the control of the Ringbearer's Will. This is intolerable; so, the final destiny of any Ringbearer who gives themselves over to the Ring is simply loneliness. The interplay of will- emotion- desire- energy- passion- acceptance- openness- love- that forms the sexual experience is by definition unavailable to a Ringbearer. They and they alone must be allowed to shape the world; theirs is a high and lonely destiny. Or so they think. To put it another way, the Ring makes you a colossal wanker.
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Dec 18, 2021 12:49
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A Moose posted:People who think the movies have too much music: I feel like its important to know, do you actually like music? There are a lot of people who don't and think its just random noise I've heard. Like Jeff Bezos for example. Apparently he thinks its a waste of time and that's actually why Amazon was so late in selling it. Some people just don't Get music. Why would your first assumption be that if people don't like the LOTR score they're just completely incapable of appreciating music
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Dec 18, 2021 13:00
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It’s objectively good . If you don’t like it for whatever reason that’s fine
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Dec 18, 2021 13:12
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euphronius posted:That’s some head canon. Which is fine It has been a long time since I read all the LOTR supplements but I'm positive what we know of Saruman's time in Middle-earth is that it was all spent trying to unravel the crafts of The Enemy. He was more versed in Ring-lore than anybody else due to all his centuries trying to thwart Sauron. That's the only reason he's in Middle-earth, having volunteered to come to try and stop the inevitable return of Sauron. True, he grew proud and covetous of power before the Palantir completed his corruption, but he was originally fiercely committed to stopping Sauron. It's just that there was no way to really "stop" Sauron. That is a pretty important theme of the books, I thought. Certainly in the books I'd say Saruman's character is defined and pulled between two things, Pride and Fear. But yeah, it would take a long time to dig through what I read and maybe I'm mis-remembering. Kinda relevantly, I've always wondered if Tolkien was trying to "say" anything about how the two most notable fallen angels in the series are both Maia of Aule, and Aule himself hosed up once as well. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Dec 18, 2021 |
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Dec 18, 2021 13:19
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Tree Bucket posted:I'm not sure it increases everything. The Ring- judging by Tolkien's own letters- can be considered the very essence of The Machine, appropriately enough for an artefact created by a Maiar of Aule. Its power is the same regardless of who wields it, much like a gun produces the same amount of kinetic energy regardless of who pulls the trigger; it is the wielder's skill, intelligence, knowledge and will that makes all the difference. A gardener, a lost king, a fallen angel all have differing "wills" and so gain different effects from the Ring, just as a child, a bank robber, and a soldier would gain different effects from pulling a gun's trigger.  nicely done
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Dec 18, 2021 13:25
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Alhazred posted:Saruman in the movies is an evil wizard having the best time of his life. Like, you can't watch the Caradhras scene and not smile at how much fun Saruman is having doing evil poo poo. I also like little thing like Saurman clearly being shooked after talking to Sauron on the palantir. And the scene where Christopher Lee gets to really have fun they cut out of the theatrical version. It’s the scene in ROTK where Gandalf and Theoden confront him at Orthanc. You really get the sense that Saruman is trying to convince them all that their quest is hopeless. And you even get some looks on Gandalf’s face that “maybe he is right”. But yeah Lee is loving great in that scene and thank god PJ put it back in the EEs.
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Dec 18, 2021 14:44
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skasion posted:Yeah it would be gross. They’re roughing it for most of a year and hardly ever get to take a proper bath. They probably smell terrible Banging with Gollum around is fine. He's not going to care and he's not going to watch you or pay attention, he's just going to sit there thinking about fish or the Ring or how he's been wronged in some way.
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Dec 18, 2021 15:28
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NikkolasKing posted:It has been a long time since I read all the LOTR supplements but I'm positive what we know of Saruman's time in Middle-earth is that it was all spent trying to unravel the crafts of The Enemy. He was more versed in Ring-lore than anybody else due to all his centuries trying to thwart Sauron. That's the only reason he's in Middle-earth, having volunteered to come to try and stop the inevitable return of Sauron. True, he grew proud and covetous of power before the Palantir completed his corruption, but he was originally fiercely committed to stopping Sauron. It's just that there was no way to really "stop" Sauron. That is a pretty important theme of the books, I thought. Certainly in the books I'd say Saruman's character is defined and pulled between two things, Pride and Fear. He was lying about the ring already at one of the early councils . He lied and said the gods had taken the ring to the ocean but he wanted it himself and knew it was somewhere in the anduin
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Dec 18, 2021 15:36
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I don’t know if Saurons inevitable victory is a theme . How do you figure that.
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Dec 18, 2021 15:38
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Mahoning posted:And the scene where Christopher Lee gets to really have fun they cut out of the theatrical version. It’s the scene in ROTK where Gandalf and Theoden confront him at Orthanc. having at least 1 actor who had actually met and conversed with tolkien and read the books once a year was awesome.
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Dec 18, 2021 16:16
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euphronius posted:I don’t know if Saurons inevitable victory is a theme . How do you figure that. The entire quest to destroy the One Ring was the only hope for the free people of Middle-earth. The only hope for the world was the slim, remote, nigh impossible chance that one Hobbit could sneak into the most fortified and powerful nation on the continent and then also destroy this incredibly powerful artifact. And indeed, Frodo could not actually destroy the Ring and Tolkien notes that nobody could willingly throw the Ring into Mt. Doom.. The books and side materials make it clear that, militarily, Sauron was without peer in the Third Age of Middle-earth. He had prepared for far too long and too thoroughly to be stopped by this point. Our heroes could win battles sure but they could never ever hope to defeat him through force of arms and win the war. That was part of what drove Denethor to despair. So, Sauron's military was unrivaled and the source of his power was impossible to willingly destroy. Any reasonable person or tactician looking at all this would conclude Sauron would win. Because, based on all facts and logic, he would win. Luckily Faith isn't something bound to human logic and reasoning capacities.
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Dec 18, 2021 17:15
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They had hope tho because the gods were on their side. They never relied on “facts” only . (They didn’t even know all the facts ) That seems like the theme to me Denethor was destroyed by desire for the Ring and saurons lies
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Dec 18, 2021 17:25
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They had hope because Sauron's military might could not be matched, and all they could do was hope. You don't have to hope for things that you know for sure will happen. Sauron's inevitable victory is definitely a major theme.
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Dec 18, 2021 17:30
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At no point do any of the Wise (minus Saruman) ever say Saurons victory is inevitable . That is not a theme. Unless you mean like if he gets the Ring back
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Dec 18, 2021 17:32
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It’s a theme that some people believe that Sauron’s victory is inevitable. Saruman and Denethor both come to believe this and express their belief in almost exactly the same terms (“a new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all”…”against the Power that now arises there is no victory”). And in both cases it’s because they have been directly exposed to Sauron’s spirit and will through the palantir. They are left able to see things only through Sauron’s own eye, and Sauron believes that his enemies have no hope of beating him because he doesn’t understand their plan. Also, it has the extremely funny implication that Sauron thinks of himself as a Vala skasion fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 18, 2021 |
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Dec 18, 2021 17:58
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euphronius posted:At no point do any of the Wise (minus Saruman) ever say Saurons victory is inevitable . That is not a theme.
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Dec 18, 2021 18:14
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Drakyn posted:I might be completely out of it, but isn't it said at the council of elrond that giving the ring to bombadil to hide would be pointless because not only would he probably lose it, but sauron would just take him down after he was finished inevitably beating everyone else? If they don’t do anything then yes they will lose. But the wise guys believe that winning is possible if they do the right thing. Defeat is evitable as long as they have faith that God’s got their back. Despairing certainty of Sauron’s victory is a bad thing that paralyzes people. It’s a literal weapon Sauron uses against his enemies, like the wraiths overflying Minas Tirith to break the spirits of the defenders.
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Dec 18, 2021 19:40
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Saruman is also extremely jealous of Gandalf who the Elves like better than him even before his fall. And he's probably suspicious of Gandalf/the rest of the council who he supposes might want the ring as much as himself.
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Dec 18, 2021 20:20
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Yes he was deeply suspicious. He thinks Gandalf has the Ring when Gandalf shows up to Orthanc I think Saruman just went evil as people tend to do
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Dec 18, 2021 20:22
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I’m watching ROTK and the lighting of the beacons scene is the perfect example of there being certain things that movies can do that books can’t. The breathtaking, sweeping visuals, with the amazing Howard Shore score is so good. And even the bit at the end where Aragorn scrambles to tell Theoden that the beacons are lit, and the music drops completely out for a few beats while Theoden considers, only for the Rohan theme to kick in as soon as he says “and Rohan will answer”. So loving good. Anyone who thinks the movies are bad just doesn’t want to like them. There are many flaws, they aren’t perfect, and the books will always be better. But drat, there’s so much to love there if you just accept the movies for what they are.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:36
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The beach scene is so good you completely forget that it makes no sense for the beacons to take a day and a night to make it to Rohan. It's that good.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:43
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Mahoning posted:Anyone who thinks the movies are bad just doesn’t want to like them. There are many flaws, they aren’t perfect, and the books will always be better. But drat, there’s so much to love there if you just accept the movies for what they are. 63% of my posts in this thread are just "I started drinking and put on one of the LOTR movies and now I've got some stuff to say". If I really looked back I'd wager that all of my complaints are about the first half of each movie, which I watched before getting too drunk to watch or post. The books are impossible to adapt perfectly. You have to make some changes. I know and accept that and accept the movies for what they are. However, some small decisions still stick in my craw. Again, why do the black riders in Fellowship have to be hissing animal monster creatures?? That's an incredibly pointless departure.
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Dec 19, 2021 03:54
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Ginette Reno posted:Saruman is also extremely jealous of Gandalf who the Elves like better than him even before his fall. And he's probably suspicious of Gandalf/the rest of the council who he supposes might want the ring as much as himself. Again, Saruman was always presented as prideful as compared to the humble Gandalf, the former rushing to come to Middle-earth while the latter feared Sauron and had to be ordered to come. But surely there is value in choosing to fight evil as Saruman did.
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Dec 19, 2021 04:28
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:However, some small decisions still stick in my craw. Again, why do the black riders in Fellowship have to be hissing animal monster creatures?? That's an incredibly pointless departure. In a book, you can describe a supernatural aura of dread in narration. In a movie, you gotta convey that dread some other way. Making them hissing monsters is a way to get across to the viewer how unsettling they are without having a bunch of characters say it out loud. Maybe that solution is a little too direct, a bit overdone and inelegant, but it's not pointless.
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Dec 19, 2021 04:41
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DontMockMySmock posted:In a book, you can describe a supernatural aura of dread in narration. In a movie, you gotta convey that dread some other way. Making them hissing monsters is a way to get across to the viewer how unsettling they are without having a bunch of characters say it out loud. Maybe that solution is a little too direct, a bit overdone and inelegant, but it's not pointless. Nah Peter Jackson was absolutely capable of visually conveying that the Nazgul were evil. He didn't need to make them animals who couldn't carry on a conversation. Yet he did. It's incomprehensible.
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Dec 19, 2021 05:39
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Honestly even in Tolkien I was surprised to find out that the Witch-king ruled a country back in the day. I suppose I should have guessed from the name, but I figured it was more of a metaphorical thing. But no, apparently the guy sat on a throne and ran a polity, even as a spooky ghost.
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Dec 19, 2021 06:32
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quote:The sky was clear and the stars were growing bright. ‘It’s going to be a fine night,’ he said aloud. ‘That’s good for a beginning. I feel like walking. I can’t bear any more hanging about. I am going to start, and Gandalf must follow me.’ He turned to go back, and then stopped, for he heard voices, just round the corner by the end of Bagshot Row. One voice was certainly the old Gaffer’s; the other was strange, and somehow unpleasant. He could not make out what it said, but he heard the Gaffer’s answers, which were rather shrill. The old man seemed put out. And in the movie it's a figure who can only screech and say "Shire... Baggins..." Not somebody who would ask to leave a message.
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Dec 19, 2021 07:49
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skasion posted:If they don’t do anything then yes they will lose. But the wise guys believe that winning is possible if they do the right thing. Defeat is evitable as long as they have faith that God’s got their back. Despairing certainty of Sauron’s victory is a bad thing that paralyzes people. It’s a literal weapon Sauron uses against his enemies, like the wraiths overflying Minas Tirith to break the spirits of the defenders. It's the old heroic trope, of fighting on even if there is no hope left at all, but from a Christian viewpoint. You don’t have to do it for honor or because you swore an oath to do so, you have to do it because maybe, just maybe, God will intervene.
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Dec 19, 2021 13:41
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:And in the movie it's a figure who can only screech and say "Shire... Baggins..." Not somebody who would ask to leave a message. That bugged me. The text would say that the black riders were looking for shire and baggins, so the movies concluded that were the only words they said Gollum’s torture, same deal He was supposed to be gibbering and babbling
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Dec 19, 2021 13:47
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:And in the movie it's a figure who can only screech and say "Shire... Baggins..." Not somebody who would ask to leave a message. I think it would be very funny if the gaffer is listening to the movie nazgul and is saying all this poo poo in response just because of how purely hobbit he is.
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Dec 19, 2021 13:49
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The gods were already intervening. I think they had pretty good confidence they would continue to do so
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Dec 19, 2021 14:09
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One reason Saruman was so desperate is that he knew he had lost the favor of the gods.
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Dec 19, 2021 14:10
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Mahoning posted:I’m watching ROTK and the lighting of the beacons scene is the perfect example of there being certain things that movies can do that books can’t. The breathtaking, sweeping visuals, with the amazing Howard Shore score is so good. And even the bit at the end where Aragorn scrambles to tell Theoden that the beacons are lit, and the music drops completely out for a few beats while Theoden considers, only for the Rohan theme to kick in as soon as he says “and Rohan will answer”. So loving good. theres a few good scenes but overall i think theyre too on the nose and have too many incredibly dumbed down or butchered characters
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Dec 19, 2021 14:18
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SHISHKABOB posted:I think it would be very funny if the gaffer is listening to the movie nazgul and is saying all this poo poo in response just because of how purely hobbit he is. This would be funny.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:23
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Shibawanko posted:theres a few good scenes but overall i think theyre too on the nose and have too many incredibly dumbed down or butchered characters That's pretty much my take on them. They're watchable, and they do big moments well for the most part. They also make a large number of baffling choices and have occasionally awful dialogue. I haven't watched them in years and I dunno if I will again tbh. The books just scratch the itch better for me. I don't begrudge people enjoying them though.
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Dec 19, 2021 19:46
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The biggest problem with the Jackson films is that we never got to see Eomer's van
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Dec 19, 2021 19:48
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The Nazgul can also say "give up the halfling, She-Elf!" And the Witch King is pretty articulate in King even if all his lines sound like a WWE wrestler with Ghost King Army Leader as his personality.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:38
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nrook posted:The biggest problem with the Jackson films is that we never got to see Eomer's van I bet it had some really sweet fantasy art on it. An accountant reconciling a spreadsheet or something.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:54
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Arc Hammer posted:The Nazgul can also say "give up the halfling, She-Elf!" And the Witch King is pretty articulate in King even if all his lines sound like a WWE wrestler with Ghost King Army Leader as his personality. No lie, that's a good line of dialogue for a talking action figure.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:00
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