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Josh Lyman posted:Question about Matrix Reloaded. When Monica Bellucci decides to help break out the Keymaker, there's a brief scene where she shoots one of the Merovingian's henchmen with a four barrel handgun then tells the other to alert the Merovingian of what she's doing. Why would she simultaneously help Neo/Morpheus/Trinity get the Keymaker then sabotage them? She's just having fun being a thorn in the Merovingian's side. She doesn't particularly care one way or the other about Neo's mission.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:07
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Wolfsheim posted:Say what you will about Zack Snyder (personally I think roughly 6/9 of his movies are good to great) but he never made the action in his action movies so bad that people genuinely couldn't tell if he did it as a joke yeah its everything else that sucks
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Dec 23, 2021 20:08
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This movie and Evangelion 4.0 are kinda the exact same movie in a lot of ways. And I liked both of them for similar reasons. Meta stuff can be exhausting but the level of disdain for the marketing but love for the source material is something hard to capture. The Last Jedi was close but didn't quite hit the mark the same way since it wasn't the original creator
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Dec 23, 2021 20:11
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Wait I forgot about Sucker Punch never mind extremely valid comparison
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Dec 23, 2021 20:11
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I don't think the fight scenes are "bad on purpose" but I think there's no way to analyze this movie without acknowledging it was written and directed by someone who really did not like having to revisit the Matrix universe and was willing to be openly ironic about it. * The main message of matrix 4 is that "the one" isn't a thing and what actually made magic possible was two people playing off one another (HMMM) * The movie is exceptionally vague about how the matrix actually works now, including who is in charge and if / when / how often it resets, to the point it seems like the writer doesn't really care about the concept itself anymore. remember that the entire original trilogy was ultimately about resetting the matrix once, and now the analyst can just rewind time at will? the ultimate attitude seems to be "don't think too much about it" * There's the montage of the game dev morons debating the "meaning" of the matrix and how to monetize it and then a smash cut to anderson taking a poo poo while the score suddenly is all farty tubas. not subtle! * The very last scene is the analyst telling neo and trinity that no one really cares about their little love story and the general public just wants the slop they're used to, and trinity replies that nevertheless maybe they will take this opportunity to spread some rainbows (an authorial statement??)
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Dec 23, 2021 20:11
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The first 1/3 was amazing, funny, charming, horny, meta, cool, weird, mindbending and chill The second 1/3 was a delirious hot mess with extremely dumb and obvious storytelling but also really cool hints at the truth being a mega mindfuck The last 1/3 was painfully boring, rushed, and entirely focused on a set of banal conflicts that seemed to miss point entirely So it mirrors the original trilogy even in quality. I doubt Lana did that on purpose - the old quote from the Coca-Cola executive about New Coke comes to mind: "Some say it was a plan. The truth is, we're not that dumb and we're not that smart." It's funny. Ever since the first trailer I've been thinking "Well, there's no way it'll be just kind of okay. It'll either be a crazy awesome mindfuck or it'll be terrible." And... it was very much "just ok". Saw it in a packed theater and almost nothing in the movie got the crowd going. No cheers, no gasps, barely even any laughs! When I saw Spiderman III-2 last week, the crowd reacted to a LOT of things, so that's interesting. Many people laughed at the end credits song. Myself included. Wow, that was really really bad and all I could think was "good lord I hope Lana doesn't think this is hardcore or something". It kinda sucks because I loved Sense8 a lot and was expecting this to be at least that good. Instead it was... probably the third worst Wachowski-involved film... which is like, woof.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:12
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This movie is like the Weeds of movies. Watch the first quarter of it and then turn it off when Neo exits the Nu-Matrix the first time.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:20
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Wolfsheim posted:Wait I forgot about Sucker Punch never mind extremely valid comparison Sucker Punch as metaphorical diss track aimed at Joss Whedon-types/Joss Whedon himself and everything he stands for owns. The movie is an indictment of pop culture. Now that you mention it, I liked Resurrections about as much as I like Sucker Punch. It's not my favorite Snyder film — I think it's his weakest/sloppiest/most scattershot effort — but I appreciated the ambition with the messaging.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:21
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Linguica posted:* The movie is exceptionally vague about how the matrix actually works now, including who is in charge and if / when / how often it resets, to the point it seems like the writer doesn't really care about the concept itself anymore. remember that the entire original trilogy was ultimately about resetting the matrix once, and now the analyst can just rewind time at will? the ultimate attitude seems to be "don't think too much about it" doesnt seem any more vague than the previous movies imo
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Dec 23, 2021 20:22
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Lana will never reach the heights of Speed Racer ever again. The only perfect movie.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:22
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also, the scenes in new zion are great and perhaps the best part of the movie.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:23
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Arguing that the action parts are bad on purpose is the same hot take as people thinking the acting in the Star Wars prequels was stiff on purpose. It's also a bit silly to suggest the action is worse/different due to Neo's changes in personality/motivation because if that was the case then you'd contain it to Neo himself but the action is just overall lacking and in all departments. We probably would just accept it as average hollywood action if it were another movie but the bar should certainly be set a bit higher for a Matrix movie. I'm not as down on the movie as others, it does have some interesting ideas and themes and you get the feeling that there is at least some heart in it, but the sum of its parts is still less than you'd expect and the action is definitely a surprising weakness (you'd think that's what they would invest in considering that way you can catch mainstream audiences even if your movie is average otherwise or doesn't have anything to say). Not that I expected anything groundbreaking but it felt like the movie didn't even try. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Dec 23, 2021 |
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Dec 23, 2021 20:24
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RBX posted:We have people that legit think Zack Snyder movies are good. Wow that's hosed up, I genuinely thought it was an ongoing bit Fucker posted:saying that the fights are uninspired and badly edited on purpose seems a bit too far lol https://twitter.com/guymrdth/status/1473856018866180102 but in Matrix form, not WW84 form
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Dec 23, 2021 20:24
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Fucker posted:also, the scenes in new zion are great and perhaps the best part of the movie. That is not angry hobo ranting which I feel is basically The Matrix distilled. I can't express how much I love that scene. It is perfect on so many levels
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Dec 23, 2021 20:24
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[edit] ^^^  Fucker posted:also, the scenes in new zion are great and perhaps the best part of the movie. Apart from everything with Bugs, Merv's "face zucker suck wiki piss and poo poo" tirade is easily my other favorite part of the movie, lol.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:27
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precision posted:And... it was very much "just ok". Saw it in a packed theater and almost nothing in the movie got the crowd going. No cheers, no gasps, barely even any laughs! When I saw Spiderman III-2 last week, the crowd reacted to a LOT of things, so that's interesting. Is it though? It's easy to underestimate how many people obsessively follow every MCU related thing, there's a reason even dull bland poo poo like Eternals still prints money. My crowd reacted to a lot of the meta references and comedy (eg. Keanu saying "...gently caress") but normally I don't get cheers or gasps in the vast majority of my theatergoing experiences. Edit: Merv popping up got a good reaction too Cacator fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Dec 23, 2021 |
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Dec 23, 2021 20:27
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teagone posted:[edit] ^^^ We may not agree on everything but I can't fault your taste
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Dec 23, 2021 20:32
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Fucker posted:also, the scenes in new zion are great and perhaps the best part of the movie. The new city is called Io by the way.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:33
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teagone posted:[edit] ^^^ Wife and I screamed with laughter from that part. It was beautiful. We were still laughing after the movie ended over that part and talking about it.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:34
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People keep saying bad on purpose but there's a lot of room below the peaks of OG matrix before you hit "bad". I think this one only had one bad action set piece. And yeah Neo's intentions definitely reflect on the film as a whole as he is a reflection of the creator. This is pretty explicit. The entire first part of the movie is about how they don't want to create a sequel. The only reason Neo and Lana then do come back is for the love story aspect. So this becomes the main focus of the later parts of the movie. The climax in the original matrix is Neo choosing to face an agent. Here the climax is Trinity and Neo touching hands together and then jumping. I think in the end, the action quality either bothered you or it didn't. The action wasn't the main focus of the film, but it was important for the older ones. For me, I can accept that Lana was not trying to top the action of old and enjoyed what she was trying to do.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:35
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Cacator posted:Is it though? It's easy to underestimate how many people obsessively follow every MCU related thing, there's a reason even dull bland poo poo like Eternals still prints money. My crowd reacted to a lot of the meta references and comedy (eg. Keanu saying "...gently caress") but normally I don't get cheers or gasps in the vast majority of my theatergoing experiences. Agreed. I didn't see this in a theatre but especially in an environment where you're told to remain masked and avoid spreading droplets, I don't think "people didn't react to this movie like pro wrestling" is a good benchmark for quality.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:41
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IO was cool. It was cool seeing machines (synthients), humans, and programs (magnetic ball bots) all work together. Ken Wilber in one of the commentaries talked how how these represent spirit, body, and mind in the original trilogy and how all needed be in harmony. So now that that has been achieved, the world can grow again (strawberries). Its a nice contrast to some of the darker future cities where humans are connected so heavily to tech in like Blade Runner. This is almost a utopia though ruled by a general instead of council of old.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:42
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Linguica posted:I don't think the fight scenes are "bad on purpose" but I think there's no way to analyze this movie without acknowledging it was written and directed by someone who really did not like having to revisit the Matrix universe and was willing to be openly ironic about it. Honestly the movie works within what we were told about how The One comes into being in Reloaded. It kinda undermines that message, but it definitely fits within the established rules of the Matrix world. Every reset/version produces a anomaly, The One, which can then be used to update/reset The Matrix. In the last iteration, it was Neo. And now, in the Analysts Matrix, its Trinity.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:43
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LinkesAuge posted:Arguing that the action parts are bad on purpose is the same hot take as people thinking the acting in the Star Wars prequels was stiff on purpose. "bad on purpose" is boiling it down too much. What it is is that there is a repeated thing across several movies (matrix, star wars, evangelion) where certain scenes are set up at the start to mirror scenes from earlier movies and set up fans with a certain expectation. Then when the scene subverts the expectation, it seems a certain subset of viewers instead of following that point instead interpret the scene as like... a swing and a miss towards the thing they were expecting, and interpret the other direction as some sort of "they made it bad on purpose" instead of getting that the point of it was that the thing they saw before didn't happen this time. When new morpheus starts saying the morpheus speech then trails off to "blah blah blah" it's not like the actor forgot his lines and they kept it in by accident, and when certain scenes that were "bad rear end" in the original movie start to replay in this movie then go in another direction it's not like they didn't notice they were subverting how it went. Like the office shooting scene being a little too over the top and kinda lamely overdone isn't a mistake, it's the same thing as new morpheus hanging out in the toilet to introduce himself.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:44
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ok, but the choreography is mediocre and the editing is outright poorly done. thats just bad. it has nothing to do w/ expectations.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:47
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checkplease posted:People keep saying bad on purpose but there's a lot of room below the peaks of OG matrix before you hit "bad". I think this one only had one bad action set piece. Yeah I agree with this take. The movie asks “why do we want to revisit The Matrix” and the answer is “Neo and Trinity need to kiss”. Every other character is half-exasperatedly dragged into this scenario, with even Smith being pissed he’s gotta deal with Neo’s bullshit again. Everyone is so goddamn tired and it’s hilarious and wonderful.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:51
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:"bad on purpose" is boiling it down too much. One of the first things I said about this movie is it's very good at making you feel the sensation of deja vu. That certain scenes you remember and have seen before might be "bad on purpose" fuels the whole meta narrative thing. How much you are willing to engage with the idea of parody vs making comparison to movie standards will likely dictate how you feel about that I think. The corporate bathroom scene being used to recreate one of the more iconic moments from the first film is a great example that even asks you, the audience, if the whole idea/execution is tragedy or farse, lol.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:54
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I loved it. The action isn't very good but I've absolutely seen worse from bigger franchises so it doesn't bother me, I was still entertained by it. This was a relevatory experience for how my tastes have changed. I saw Reloaded and Revolutions in the theater and was bored stiff for the entire runtime, but my brain apparently did a flip since then and now I love the talking and worldbuilding (even in the real world), so this movie worked for me. A lot of the dialogue is updates and lore, so if they do any more of these hopefully there's a more focused approach now that they can't lean on that, but for what this movie was I had a blast. This whole project's timeline for me was so weird. I had filed away the Matrix as a thing I didn't really want to touch again for years, they announce they're doing a new one which made me think "yeah right", they basically filmed it in secret during the pandemic, I literally kept thinking it was a joke that wasn't happening, they dropped the trailer a couple months ago, and I watched it in a theater last night and loved it. I don't think I've ever had that beginning to end experience with a film franchise before. Anyway, bring on sequels or an HBO Max show about Bugs' crew. I connected with them a lot more than I did even with the original crew of the Nebuchadnezzar.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:55
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Please do not start arguments about Star Wars prequels, Snyder movies, the MCU, or whatever other movies you're mad people like in The Matrix thread.
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Dec 23, 2021 20:59
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HD DAD posted:This might have always been a thing, but are people just getting worse at watching and processing media? I feel like “wildly missing the point and/or somehow not picking up on explicitly stated information” has had an uptick in the last 15 years. I think it's just that people watch most movies on streaming at home now, and are paying less attention than they uses to. I don't fully blame them, I have bad issues with staying focused on a movie too and sometimes catch myself wandering to look at my phone or my other monitor.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:02
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Roth posted:I think it's just that people watch most movies on streaming at home now, and are paying less attention than they uses to. Just build out a home theater, duh.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:06
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"We have to keep you two apart, bad things happen when you are together" Is that a self dig?
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Dec 23, 2021 21:06
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Fucker posted:ok, but the choreography is mediocre and the editing is outright poorly done. thats just bad. it has nothing to do w/ expectations. In some scenes sure. But like the police storming the office scene echoing back to scenes in other movies with badass Morpheus being a little too over the top and lame “badass” then him also coming out of a toilet and redoing the speech with “blah blah blah” are not unrelated things. Like maybe you were supposed to get he was made to be a reboot rerun of past Morpheus but wasn’t actually that.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:10
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Gangringo posted:Inside Lana Wachowski there are two wolves. I've got a ton of thoughts on all this, but this post sums it up better than I can. I love that world too Lana, but more so I love your willingness to erect a giant middle finger atop it
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Dec 23, 2021 21:13
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I wasn't a fan of how the fights were shot or edited but the choreography seemed pretty good when I was able to see it clearly. It was a definite step down from previous films.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Then when the scene subverts the expectation, it seems a certain subset of viewers instead of following that point instead interpret the scene as like... a swing and a miss towards the thing they were expecting, and interpret the other direction as some sort of "they made it bad on purpose" instead of getting that the point of it was that the thing they saw before didn't happen this time. That’s not what subversion is though. What precisely is the power or authority that is being undermined? “Expectation” is far too nebulous. Whose expectation? The hegemony, or what? If I expect these films about “fighting the system” to include some trace of authentic anticapitalism, and my expectations are not met, what is the good in that?
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Dec 23, 2021 21:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s not what subversion is though. What precisely is the power or authority that is being undermined? Pop culture? Hollywood culture/politics?
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Dec 23, 2021 21:18
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I feel like even most people who like the film would have to admit any subversion is strictly an exercise in internecine bourgeoisie sniping. Love to root for the underdog rich person
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Dec 23, 2021 |
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Dec 23, 2021 21:19
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The Wachowskis are a drop in the bucket compared to Warner Bros and are the ones who did the labor of directing the movies that Warner Bros profited off. They have an estimate of $250 million net worth, while Warner Bros made 30 billion in revenue in 2020 alone. They are rich, but I still support them against the significantly more powerful corporation that is Warner Bros.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:25
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I'm not offended by M4 like the Star Wars geeks were by Last Jedi, but I am disappointed that the creator decided to openly poo poo all over her own creation and distance herself from it while also making a movie about it. This isn't deconstruction, it's denial. And it shows in how crappy the end result was. If you wanna make a bunch of WB Sucks jokes, make a Spaceballs like parody or something. Merovingian jumping around in a Derelicte ensemble and issuing profane meta commentary wasn't something that added to the movie, unless you hated the idea of the movie in the first place.
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Dec 23, 2021 21:28
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