(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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vyelkin posted:In the 1991 election for president of the RSFSR, with 75% turnout Yeltsin got 59% of the vote as an independent and blew out the second-place CPSU candidate by 42 points. Guess that counts. ON the other hand 
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Dec 21, 2021 13:09
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| # ? May 28, 2024 10:44 |
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genericnick posted:Guess that counts. ON the other hand yeah, that 1991 election was probably the most open election held in Russia since 1917. The Time story is about 96 when Yeltsin rigged the whole thing with the help of Clintonites and the oligarchs who owned the media
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Dec 21, 2021 14:46
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vyelkin posted:yeah, that 1991 election was probably the most open election held in Russia since 1917. The Time story is about 96 when Yeltsin rigged the whole thing with the help of Clintonites and the oligarchs who owned the media I stand corrected
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Dec 21, 2021 14:53
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genericnick posted:I stand corrected worth mentioning just for completeness's sake that Yeltsin did have some help from Americans in 91 as well, they flew in a handful of American consultants (and not just any consultants but literally the founder of the Heritage Foundation) for two days and the consultants told them stuff like "turning out your voters is good" which they then did, but nothing like the full hands-on control that the Clintonites had in 96. Michael Urban, "Boris El'tsin, Democratic Russia and the Campaign for the Russian Presidency," Soviet Studies 44.2 (1992), 195-197 posted:Democratic Russia benefitted from a visit by five campaign experts, led by Paul Weyerich and Robert Krieble from the US-based Committee for a Free Congress, who met with organisers of the El'tsin campaign at national, regional and district levels in Moscow on 18 and 19 May. Although not thoroughly versed in Russian conditions and therefore often making recommendations that were in context quite impractical-an aspect of this Russian-American interchange that led one Democratic Russia organiser to remark that 'these people are from another civilisation!'-much of what the Americans had to say was carefully noted and duly applied in devising campaign tactics. In particular, the US specialists contributed: the design of El'tsin brochures; the idea of setting up of campaign calendars in order to budget time strictly within each unit of the organisation; the dispatching of 'flying squads' of activists from urban centres to small towns and rural settlements to stage rallies and distribute campaign literature; the imperative of drawing as many people as possible into the campaign in order to track voters and turn out supporters on election day; and the utility of forming a special section composed of military officers in order to overcome the barriers to campaigning in the armed services that had been present during past elections. vyelkin has issued a correction as of 15:06 on Dec 21, 2021 |
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Dec 21, 2021 15:01
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vyelkin posted:worth mentioning just for completeness's sake that Yeltsin did have some help from Americans in 91 as well, they flew in a handful of American consultants (and not just any consultants but literally the founder of the Heritage Foundation) for two days and the consultants told them stuff like "turning out your voters is good" which they then did, but nothing like the full hands-on control that the Clintonites had in 96. The entire movie about it is on YouTube, starring Jeff Goldblum, Anthony LaPaglia, and Liev Schreiber as the American consultants:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNbYhkj3fmE From its Letterboxd 
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Dec 21, 2021 21:24
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what the hell happened to mccaine. you would think he would be all up in this thread
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Dec 22, 2021 05:04
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Oh hey somehow this thread disappeared from my bookmarks. Good to have it back.
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Dec 23, 2021 19:01
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There was a small amount of fuckery at the end of the last thread.
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Dec 24, 2021 03:31
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Fair enough, by the time I remembered there was a Marxism thread, it had already been closed and just forgot to look for a new one. I have also been making better efforts towards taking care of myself since I last posted in the previous thread, including an ADHD diagnosis. Treatment so far has certainly helped with other problems, plus the added bonus that I actually feel like a functional human being. Including reading some actual theory. There's the nihilism, sure, that poo poo is always there. But the way I figure, if capitalism is to be the death of me, I don't intend on making it easy for them. Gene Hackman Fan has issued a correction as of 06:38 on Dec 24, 2021 |
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Dec 24, 2021 06:28
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what are you going to do about it
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Dec 24, 2021 13:35
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ErrorInvalidUser posted:what the hell happened to mccaine. you would think he would be all up in this thread hes around 
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Dec 24, 2021 21:44
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His opinions on age of consent would make him few friends around these parts these days
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Dec 24, 2021 21:48
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Mr. Lobe posted:His opinions on age of consent would make him few friends around these parts these days They'd make him a mod again.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:10
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AnimeIsTrash posted:They'd make him a mod again. I did say few, not none
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Dec 24, 2021 22:17
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croup coughfield posted:what are you going to do about it As I've explained to azathoth, nothing requiring law enforcement, but at the same time nothing over which I'd care to break opsec. I mean, I'd ask how a mad sociologist would operate, but then I remember I have a degree in marketing.
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Dec 24, 2021 22:30
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wishing you the best but this isnt exactly inspiring
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Dec 24, 2021 23:31
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croup coughfield posted:wishing you the best but this isnt exactly inspiring I'm just happy that we're not going to hear he's been arrested outside the TNDP HQ with a duffel bag full of duct tape and zip ties. But seriously GHF, good to hear that you're channeling your energy towards something positive.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:38
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theory, specifically soaking your brain in the dialectic, does have honest-to-god therapeutic powers.
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Dec 24, 2021 23:56
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Gene Hackman Fan posted:if capitalism is to be the death of me, I don't intend on making it easy for them. lmao can we put this goony poo poo as the thread subtitle pls
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Dec 25, 2021 05:37
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https://twitter.com/gwpotter666/status/1473655582364160006?t=bmaph1YXmXo68z59bMGJ7g&s=19
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Dec 25, 2021 08:31
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/gwpotter666/status/1473655582364160006?t=bmaph1YXmXo68z59bMGJ7g&s=19
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Dec 25, 2021 08:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/gwpotter666/status/1473655582364160006?t=bmaph1YXmXo68z59bMGJ7g&s=19 Lol
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Dec 25, 2021 15:21
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yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism it seems very silly and it's started bleeding into countries with actual socialist traditions, please stop
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Dec 25, 2021 15:41
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strange feelings re Daisy posted:Trying to remember what that Marx piece was called. In Praise of the Gotha Program? Celebration of the Gotha Program? Probably not important. What really matters is how SPD triumphed over the Nazis.
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Dec 25, 2021 15:45
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V. Illych L. posted:yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism I don't wanna hear this poo poo from some welfare-nannied norwegian
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Dec 25, 2021 15:47
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V. Illych L. posted:yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism Because the American left is a failure, op.
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Dec 25, 2021 15:53
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V. Illych L. posted:yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism because Americans have been propagandized very thoroughly that actually existing socialism in the form of the USSR and the PRC and Cuba, etc etc are all atrocity-committing dictatorial authoritarian totalitarian hellscapes and so anyone who wants to be a leftists without having to deal with reconciling such claims ends up pursuing tendencies such as anarchism, social democracy, and democratic socialism
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Dec 25, 2021 15:55
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Guy from the herrenvolk social democracy with a smaller population than wisconsin: how about you yanks learn from a country with a real leftwing tradition, me and my 16 cousins 
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Dec 25, 2021 15:55
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Dreddout posted:Guy from the herrenvolk social democracy with a smaller population than wisconsin: how about you yanks learn from a country with a real leftwing tradition, me and my 16 cousins yes, it *is* embarassing that you people are so totally backwards in this regard i agree
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Dec 25, 2021 16:10
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V. Illych L. posted:yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism it's the same thing with anarchism there
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Dec 25, 2021 16:40
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V. Illych L. posted:yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution quote:Another example of this is the contrast in how the People’s Republic of Korea is treated compared to Palestine. Both nations engaged in the same struggle – the anti-colonial fight for national independence. In the case of Korea, the struggle was made from a socialist perspective. Korea succeeded, despite being a country that is fractured by imperialism. It has an economy that is relatively strong, with a reasonably high level of industrialization, a very strong national army and capacity to launch nuclear weapons. So, Korea is not a defenseless nation. Palestinians are a people who are deeply oppressed, in a situation of extreme poverty, that don’t have a national economy because they don’t have a national state. They don’t have an army or military or economic power. Therefore, Palestine is the total incarnation of the metaphor of David vs Goliath, except that this David doesn’t have a chance of beating Goliath in political and military conflict. Therefore, almost everyone in the international left likes Palestine. People become ecstatic looking at those images -- which I don’t think are very fantastic – of a child or teenager using a sling to launch a rock at a tank. Look, this is a clear example of heroism but it is also a symbol of barbarism. This is a people who do not have the capacity to defend themselves facing an imperialist colonial power that is armed to the teeth. They do not have an equal capacity of resistance, but this is romanticized. Western leftists like this situation of oppression, suffering and martyrdom. AnimeIsTrash posted:Because the American left is a failure, op. just the way we like it.
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Dec 25, 2021 16:48
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution
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Dec 25, 2021 16:53
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V. Illych L. posted:yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism the funniest thing is that the conditions of Imperial Germany that produced the SPD and its support as a mass party are so wildly different to today that it's not even a remotely relevant tradition to follow. broadly 19th century Germany was in the middle of a transition to industrial capitalism which produced the basis of support for a viable mass party (and trade unionism) from the contradiction of increased socialisation of the means of production. the idea you can take the Gotha Programme and apply it to today is absurd - nothing about Imperial Germany is applicable to contemporary western service economies (beyond broad lessons in reformism and cooption which is why Marx's critique is still relevant). to completely generalise, i think western leftists consistently pick their very special tendency in a historical period they love and supplant it onto modern conditions blindly. they don't understand the material historical contexts and economic and social conditions they live within and fail to build anything meaningful. it's probably liberalism, or misunderstanding Marxism from how propagandised and suppressed it is. at the same time the idea you can figure out the very specific conditions that are 100% correct and that somehow would magically produce socialism is utopian but i think study is still really important
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Dec 25, 2021 16:55
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution You can gently caress off with this, particularly the pull quote. DPRK and Palestine are not comparable in anyway.
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Dec 25, 2021 17:09
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Hefty Leftist posted:the funniest thing is that the conditions of Imperial Germany that produced the SPD and its support as a mass party are so wildly different to today that it's not even a remotely relevant tradition to follow. broadly 19th century Germany was in the middle of a transition to industrial capitalism which produced the basis of support for a viable mass party (and trade unionism) from the contradiction of increased socialisation of the means of production. the idea you can take the Gotha Programme and apply it to today is absurd - nothing about Imperial Germany is applicable to contemporary western service economies (beyond broad lessons in reformism and cooption which is why Marx's critique is still relevant). there's this - the idea of the DSA being anywhere near as powerful as the fin-de-siecle SPD is absurd for a whole number of reasons - but there's also a weird affinity for USPD-ism specifically which i genuinely do not understand. the early KPD *also* failed and in germany the left-wing nostalgic romanticism is centered around them (which imo is explicable - liebknecht was right all along etc), but for some reason american commentators really like kautsky and bernstein and it's unclear to me how that came about and why it persists. i suspect herbert marcuse of having something to do with it but i don't actually know anything about this so it's a genuine question, if maybe a little aggressively phrased
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Dec 25, 2021 17:15
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V. Illych L. posted:yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism for the same reason anarchism is popular: Americans are dumb babies with no understanding of anything
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Dec 25, 2021 17:15
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution it's one hell of a very, very bad example by the author to make that point I understand that they mean that Palestinian resistance is far more appealing to a certain type of political sensibility in the West, but the argumentation makes it look like the Palestinians deliberately acted in that direction, which is incredibly loving stupid. Korea had two very powerful neighbors to help it up, Palestine had one century of modern imperial occupation plus the rather unique circumstance of zionism bringing an adversarial, militant population that had the sympathy and active support of the allies even so, islamic communists in palestine and region made some of the most superb efforts of organization ever seen to do what they can. of loving course they would have built a goddamn revolutionary state if they could but they can't
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Dec 25, 2021 17:26
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Palestine should be given a nuke, to be more like the DPRK
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Dec 25, 2021 17:40
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dead gay comedy forums posted:it's one hell of a very, very bad example by the author to make that point i really dont think that was manoels point there lol, but i can see what you mean. having listened to some anarchists they have all but admitted that they likely wouldn't support a successful, free palestine because nationalism bad
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Dec 25, 2021 17:46
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V. Illych L. posted:kautsky and bernstein I suspect that being not easily recognizable names like Marx, Engels, Mao, Lenin, Stalin etc, makes their ideas more permeable in academic contexts; american socialism seems to be very centered in academia once reagan was president likewise, an oppositional attitude against the USSR was, well, a way to actually have the means to get ideas talked about but at some point people stopped being savvy about it, feels like in terms to their actual ideas, well, Kautsky would have been slapped repeatedly by Engels by being a total dumbass who got played like a fiddle in the first world war by the German established powers, while having the gall to try a go at Lenin and the bolsheviks Bernstein is incredibly loving worse thinking he was smarter than everybody else, that he alone detected a couple of fundamental errors of theory which enabled wonders such as ethical principles of socialism being capable by themselves to transform society without revolution (sounds familiar? yeah, this is hippie talk of the 60s). apparently, he was appalled and in total shock with the nazis, which is incredibly appropriate for him what they have in appeal is that thing of wishful thinking, that a social transformation for the benefit of the majority is something pure, one that can happen unsullied by history. Had the bolsheviks lost, they would cry rivers about it, but they won against unimaginable odds. Bernstein, Kautsky et al got shook by how they did it, apparently not understanding that winning requires doing those things. I usually summarize it like this when doing socialist ed: bernstein etc is appealing to the people who don't want to gently caress somebody's face up and get theirs too even though it might be the thing that leads to a better future
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Dec 25, 2021 18:04
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