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I think the decision to vastly play up the "who is the dragon reborn???" mystery was a big mistake. So many changes were made because of this, and so much screen time wasted. I get they were trying to hook non readers but it just came off as cheap melodrama.
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Dec 26, 2021 17:29
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My biggest worry for the show going forward isn't that it won't be a perfect 1:1 or anything. It's that at the pace they're going, and the lack of depth they're putting in to the world and characters (partially because of that pace), then the moments in the book that feel like huge well-earned payoffs are going to come out of nowhere and lose their impact. Who cares if the Asha'man kill a bunch of people in a fight when we've seen a few Aes Sedai putting out that same sort of power for the entire series? The reveal that Ishamael wasn't actually TDO? It'll feel like a cop out because we didn't even really understand that the forsaken were a thing people still feared. I mean, we've already seen that this season with Rand's reveal, and the reactions being "oh, ok." That was entirely because the show did NOT do a good job of explaining why the DR would be feared by the general population, you just got a single short scene from Moirarine saying "actually its worse than that." For example:BrianWilly posted:lol "the evil wind told him so, what else do you need?" If they keep the same sort of plot-checklist and pace, it's very easy to see them putting themselves in a situation where people just don't care when big reveals happen because the groundwork wasn't laid correctly. I do think Rafe and co legitimately care about and enjoy the books, but from the first season they haven't convinced me that they understand what about the books made them enjoyable. It wasn't the wikipedia summary of a plot that the show is putting together so far. Skyl3lazer fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 17:38
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I think the decision to vastly play up the "who is the dragon reborn???" mystery was a big mistake. So many changes were made because of this, and so much screen time wasted. I get they were trying to hook non readers but it just came off as cheap melodrama. If they had been able to wrap it all up in a satisfactory way in the last 2 eps it would have been fine. But, well, they didn't.
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Dec 26, 2021 17:43
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The show basically requires you to have read the books. I don’t know how non readers would understand half of the gibberish that gets spewed because most of it isn’t really explained. Warders and Aes Sedai have a bond? What does it do? I don’t know but they get real sad when one dies. I guess if you turn your brain off there’s some pretty stuff to look at.
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Dec 26, 2021 17:45
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Invalid Validation posted:The show basically requires you to have read the books. I don’t know how non readers would understand half of the gibberish that gets spewed because most of it isn’t really explained. Warders and Aes Sedai have a bond? What does it do? I don’t know but they get real sad when one dies. I guess if you turn your brain off there’s some pretty stuff to look at. Game of Thrones led to massively increased sales for ASOIAF books, and I assume that'll happen here too. Obviously the length is going to scare a shitload of people away, but at least the series actually had a conclusion, even if it required a second author to do it. I wonder if people who watched the show first will return to it and go 'wow this is pretty dumb.'
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Dec 26, 2021 18:26
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Given most of the show-only people I've seen talking about the show seem to have a pretty decent grasp on how the world, characters, and plot work, I'm not really sure where all the "You'd be lost without the books" thing comes from. I mean, there's some stuff that hasn't come up yet, and there's some questions of "What does this part mean, is that important?" but I don't see an easy way around those given the book dedicates a massive page count to repeated explanations of background elements in inner monologue and outer dialogue alike. You could do that level of hand-holding in a TV show but I don't think it would be well-received.
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Dec 26, 2021 18:38
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Invalid Validation posted:The show basically requires you to have read the books. I don’t know how non readers would understand half of the gibberish that gets spewed because most of it isn’t really explained. Warders and Aes Sedai have a bond? What does it do? I don’t know but they get real sad when one dies. I guess if you turn your brain off there’s some pretty stuff to look at. I've been talking throughout the show to a couple of non-readers, and they get all these things because the show makes this all pretty clear from context.
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Dec 26, 2021 18:40
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It does? Like better healing? More strength? Can sense their Aes Sedai? What makes it different other than just saying they married?
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Dec 26, 2021 18:44
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This is only tangentially related to the show because I learned it while watching Brandon Sanderson talk about the show, but I was really surprised to find out Robert Jordan's notes that he used as the basis for finishing the series were a lot less extensive than I thought. He said there was a ton of stuff about Egwene, more than any other character (!), but that there was almost nothing for Perrin. It really makes me feel fortunate that the ending of the series didn't feel a lot more like fan fiction than it did if Sanderson was outright making up almost the entire plot for at least one of the major characters, and presumably a whole bunch of stuff for others. Obviously they had every reason to downplay how much innovation Sanderson was doing at the time because they wanted the fans to believe it was still RJ's original vision, but I think Sanderson deserves a ton of credit if his role was even bigger than we realized at the time.
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Dec 26, 2021 18:49
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Yes, it's a magic bond to a wizard. People get it and the general implications.
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Dec 26, 2021 18:49
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I think the decision to vastly play up the "who is the dragon reborn???" mystery was a big mistake. So many changes were made because of this, and so much screen time wasted. I get they were trying to hook non readers but it just came off as cheap melodrama. What major changes were made because of this? Because I can't think of any outside of characters saying "it might be any one of them!" and the major plot beats of the season are the same as the book.
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Dec 26, 2021 18:51
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:What major changes were made because of this? Because I can't think of any outside of characters saying "it might be any one of them!" and the major plot beats of the season are the same as the book. We got focus on how Nynaeve is a really powerful channeler, that Egwene is ambitious and clever, that Perrin has some sort of wolf thing going on, and that Mat has some sort of darkness linked to him. You know, nothing from the books.
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Dec 26, 2021 18:58
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:What major changes were made because of this? Because I can't think of any outside of characters saying "it might be any one of them!" and the major plot beats of the season are the same as the book. Was a major plot beat of EOTW to ignore Rand for basically the entire season?
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Dec 26, 2021 18:58
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'Who's the Dragon' is a symptom of the overarching problem of this season, and a major one at that. But here is the real problem: Judkins: "I'm a feminist and it's very important to me that the show is feminist in today's context" and "and we’re going to keep doing things that I think better reflect what I hope Robert Jordan would write if he were to write today." The dude told us he intends to re-write the story to meet some standard HE deems worthy of publication in 202, and that's exactly what he did. He never intended this to be a faithful adaptation. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 26, 2021 19:06
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wraith_5_ posted:Was a major plot beat of EOTW to ignore Rand for basically the entire season? What does Rand do in the first book that he doesn't do in the show? Aside from the ending with Tarwin's Gap I can't think of anything major.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:08
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wraith_5_ posted:'Who's the Dragon' is a symptom of the overarching problem of this season, and a major one at that. But here is the real problem: Oh, good gravy, that is ridiculous and in no way a problem. The show is a very faithful adaptation, and like all works, is a product of the time and place in which it was made. I don't think you could make a very good adaptation without using a feminist lens to interpret the series. It is an unalloyed positive thing that speaks well both of Judkins and everyone involved with the show that they realize it.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:12
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wraith_5_ posted:'Who's the Dragon' is a symptom of the overarching problem of this season, and a major one at that. But here is the real problem: Great. The genre has a long history of being a bit poo poo and underwhelming in terms of representation of my gender and appealing to the female gaze / experience; I'm glad to read this.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:13
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In TEOTW while we the readers know Rand is the dragon pretty early on thanks to being in his head for most of the book. Moraine has no loving idea until the eye itself.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:18
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His Divine Shadow posted:The show putting on these pretenses like this and the whole who is the dragon reborn "mystery" just tied it's hands and didn't make anything about it better just worse IMO, the books handled the ishamael/TDO stuff just fine and the show could've copied it over to TV format no problem I think. I don’t think they could have, actually. In the book, you could read “Ishamael” and “The Dark One/Ba’alzamon” and assume they’re different people. In a show, you’d clearly see they’re the same person. To keep the secret, you have to either keep the burning mask on him, which would hide his performance, or hire two actors, which I think starts to get needlessly messy. The way they’re playing it, I think they’re gonna skip crazy Ishy and the death and resurrection and go right to Morridin Ishy. And they’ll have more flashbacks to Lews Therin, with him eventually meeting Elan/Ishamael, and that will be the reveal that Rand hasn’t been talking to the Dark One after all. Then you can have the prologue scene from book one. Framed a bit different, but I like the idea, if that’s right.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:24
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Invalid Validation posted:It does? Like better healing? More strength? Can sense their Aes Sedai? What makes it different other than just saying they married? Lan has some drinks, and later says he shouldn’t have because Moiraine always gets emotional when he drinks. It’s more than being married. Like, the show is clearly laying out some things that I think you’re not paying attention to.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:27
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I think the decision to vastly play up the "who is the dragon reborn???" mystery was a big mistake. So many changes were made because of this, and so much screen time wasted. I get they were trying to hook non readers but it just came off as cheap melodrama. I have friends who are non-book readers, and they kept asking each other (and me, though I didn’t answer) who the Dragon is throughout the season. It was one of their main hooks. So I don’t think it was a mistake at all.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:30
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Health Services posted:Oh, good gravy, that is ridiculous and in no way a problem. The show is a very faithful adaptation, and like all works, is a product of the time and place in which it was made.  WoT was hugely progressively feminist for when it came out, to the point that it was very clear that was part of the active intent of the series. That's part of why Gandalf is female and Egwene and Nynaeve are major viewpoint characters and even Eye of the World passes the Bechdel test. "Being progressive on gender" is part of what makes WoT, WoT. It's a good thing that Rafe is staying true to that aspect of the story.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:35
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I think the decision to vastly play up the "who is the dragon reborn???" mystery was a big mistake. So many changes were made because of this, and so much screen time wasted. I get they were trying to hook non readers but it just came off as cheap melodrama. It was a smash success and is super popular. You are factually incorrect. You are like those yellow sisters in Salidar after Nyneave heals Logain talking about how she's doing healing wrong by using earth and fire after she just healed the unhealable. Also anyone posting about how non-readers are thinking are wrong. You have no possible way to get into their frame of reference. So your posts are just noise.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:46
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I mean, I have a sample size of exactly one, but my girl was really drawn in to the 'who is the Dragon' mystery, and absolutely loves the show so far.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Absolutely, I'm sure that was one of the elements that contributed to the books' success and popularity. In the almost 30 years since, with the astounding amount of movement in thinking on gender it's very appropriate that it has been incorporated into the show and that the weak spots of Jordan are sanded and improved.
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Dec 26, 2021 19:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
^^  So, having watched the finale, I'm...mixed. It really shows that they were writing around Mat's sudden absence, which made the whole episode janky. There's a decent amount of stuff that I'm leery of, but I still feel the good outweighs the bad. Specifically every single scene involving either Ishamael ( that little 'ooh' as Rand draws his sword on him, and the weary sigh when Rand stabs himself was hilarious, and the temptation was really well done ) or Padan Fain ( who keeps being absolutely amazing, somehow, despite having very few lines ). Prologue was very good. Not what I expected, to be sure, but it was interesting to see the Age of Legend in full glory, and.... I really like the costuming? It looks like something sci-fi wizards would, indeed, wear. Rand and Moiraine's trek through the blight felt like it was out of order, somewhat? Like, they should have seen Tarwin's Gap well before the seven towers of Malkier, surely? That did nag at me. Still, allowed for a bit of character-development of Rand specifically, which was good, given that he's been hiding in the shadow of the others until now. Other stuff... While I'm annoyed that Lord Agelmar apparently went out the way he did, this also set up an object lesson in how dangerous drawing too much of the One Power is, and gave Egwene a chance to shine in saving Nynaeve at the end thus getting some of her own back. Kind of wondering and confused about what's going to happen to Loial. And Moiraine being stilled is, uh... Kind of weird. Unless they plan on having Nynaeve and Egwene work out how to heal Stilling next seasons. Or she could just be shielded with the weave tied off. Oh! I like the aesthetic on the Seanchan, especially the mass of dinosaur-teeth being used for decorations. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 20:13
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I mean, I have a sample size of exactly one, but my girl was really drawn in to the 'who is the Dragon' mystery, and absolutely loves the show so far. Same same. My girlfriend thought it was Nynaeve, after she mass-healed peeps. She is also enjoying the show as a non-book reader. (She made me rewind the part where Lan says "I will hate the man you love, and I will love him for making you smile" part, because she's mushy sometimes.) GORDON fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 20:22
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I'm about 50/50 on whether Agelmar is actually dead or not, tbh. We saw him take a spear, but he was glaring defiance rather than any of the traditional indicators of dying. /\ It's a fantastic line.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:28
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GORDON posted:Same same. My girlfriend thought it was Nynaeve, after she mass-healed peeps. She is also enjoying the show as a non-book reader. (She made me rewind the part where Lan says "I will hate the man you love, and I will love him for making you smile" part, because she's mushy sometimes.) It really is a great line.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:35
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TLM3101 posted:
Moiraine says something about how the towers are miles closer to tarwin's gap than they should be, so it seems like they took the whole "eye of the world moves around" thing and applied it to the general geography of the blight. Stuff moves around and is not linearly consistent.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:44
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Lmao if Moiraine’s in-show reasoning for tackling Lanfear through the doorway is because it’s all she can do since she still can’t channel.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:49
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Democratic Pirate posted:Lmao if Moiraine’s in-show reasoning for tackling Lanfear through the doorway is because it’s all she can do since she still can’t channel. That's very true to her character though, especially as seen in New Spring.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:50
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Democratic Pirate posted:Lmao if Moiraine’s in-show reasoning for tackling Lanfear through the doorway is because it’s all she can do since she still can’t channel. But then there’s no real reason for the fox and snake people to keep her around as long since they can’t siphon the power from her. Which I guess isn’t an issue if you speed up the rescue.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:52
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Oh, and I want to give a shout-out to Ishamael absolutely crushing Moiraine without any effort whatsoever, much less breaking a sweat. Exactly as powerful as one of the Forsaken should be. I'd swear I read a mix of confusion and amusement on his face.
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Dec 26, 2021 20:53
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Let the season 2 casting news flow! https://www.wotseries.com/2021/12/26/season-two-cast-melissa-james-jessica-boone-more/ Selene is on set! https://twitter.com/WoTUp5/status/1430477673285963777
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Dec 26, 2021 20:54
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CainFortea posted:Moiraine says something about how the towers are miles closer to tarwin's gap than they should be, so it seems like they took the whole "eye of the world moves around" thing and applied it to the general geography of the blight. Stuff moves around and is not linearly consistent. i did not rewatch but i think that she says that the Blight is closer to Tarwin's Gap than it's ever been, just talking about its expansion (and she mentions that the towers were only covered 40 years ago even though it looks like centuries)
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Dec 26, 2021 20:59
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eke out posted:i did not rewatch but i think that she says that the Blight is closer to Tarwin's Gap than it's ever been, just talking about its expansion (and she mentions that the towers were only covered 40 years ago even though it looks like centuries) Nah, she specifically says the towers are way closer than they used to be. I'm guessing they're setting up the time-space fuckery early. the latter V Comrade Blyatlov fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Dec 26, 2021 |
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Dec 26, 2021 21:01
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It's been a long time since I read the bits concerning them but for some reason I always pictured the "Seven Towers of Malkier" being, you know, actual towers, like buildings. Not piles of Magic Sand e: or are they actual towers and they look fucky because they're covered with Blight gunk? They didn't look any closer than matte-painting distance so I couldn't really tell.
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Dec 26, 2021 21:01
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Hexel posted:Let the season 2 casting news flow! Interesting note from that article is that they've casted Barthanes Damodred, so we are visting Cairhein next season (while the "rand denying all the invites gets him the biggest invites of all" scene was funny, I did think Cairhein might be cut and instead we chase Fain directly to Falme.)
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Dec 26, 2021 21:05
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  And then after this they turn back and can see the Trollocs going after the Gap.
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Dec 26, 2021 21:08
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