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The Soviet Union presented a direct thread to all the world powers, yet the Cold War doesn't come until after WW2 because the will and materiel were not there to make the world powers ready to go again immediately after WW1. What we have now may be a will, of a sort, but there's no way.
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Dec 27, 2021 19:20
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Dec 27, 2021 19:21
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What's certainly happening is that the United States is trying to make a Cold War happen. All of this rhetoric is trying to build up support for re-armament and readiness, but even if there is support for it - it might be actually materially impossible to be ready for war with China or Russia.
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Dec 27, 2021 19:22
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Soviet Union presented a direct thread to all the world powers, yet the Cold War doesn't come until after WW2 because the will and materiel were not there to make the world powers ready to go again immediately after WW1. What we have now may be a will, of a sort, but there's no way. The PRC at this point is in a far better position than the Soviet Union was at after the end of the Cold War. The Soviet Union had a powerful army but it was an economic wreck. Btw, there is a silent but ongoing arms buildup at this point even if it isn’t readily being talked about. Pener Kropoopkin posted:What's certainly happening is that the United States is trying to make a Cold War happen. All of this rhetoric is trying to build up support for re-armament and readiness, but even if there is support for it - it might be actually materially impossible to be ready for war with China or Russia. I don’t see how that is different than the first go around except the US is struggling to make an effort.
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Dec 27, 2021 19:29
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Raskolnikov38 posted:tbf the invasion of Cambodia was less because pol pot was an insane monster and more because he was insanely racist against Vietnamese Ardennes posted:The war lasted a month, and currently a Chinese company just helped finish Vietnam’s first metro line in Hanoi. Thank y'all for the clarification. I'm certainly glad to hear that. Pener Kropoopkin posted:There isn't any real basis for conflict between materialism and Christianity - like how evolution used to be uncontroversial over a hundred years ago until it became a rallying cry for biblical literalism. If Earth is truly given to Man's dominion by God, then it's a Christian duty to understand material sciences in order to exercise that dominion. Exactly. My take is that the gifts of a benevolent creator require using them all together-- and that includes the gifts of empathy and intelligence. The willful choice of a lot of church leaders in discouraging their use is a disgusting blasphemy, as far as I'm concerned. "To whom much is given, much is required" and that kind of stuff. quote:In a communist program, the religious question is literally immaterial. The issue is religious misleadership rather than religion in itself. All of which is a product of economic slavery practiced by ruling classes throughout history. Driving a wedge between religious people broadly speaking and the larger proletarian struggle is a bad revolutionary program. Yep. Goes back to rendering into Caesar, "to every time there is a purpose" in Ecclesiastes, and probably a lot more if I felt like digging into it (but I don't) I'm still a dipshit when it comes to learning theory (hell, I've not been able to properly focus on anything until just recently), but I am glad to know that it's not supposed to be an issue.
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Dec 27, 2021 20:02
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Ardennes posted:I don’t see how that is different than the first go around except the US is struggling to make an effort. In the first go around the US & Soviet Union were always ready to go to war in the Fulda Gap. They designed their military planning around it. There isn't a single point of conflict where we're ready to go like that today. The PRC is in a better position today than the Soviet Union was then, precisely because they did detante with the US and made themselves essential to the world market. A real military buildup on the scale of the Cold War would be wasted expenditure. I think it's something we're going to grasp at, but fail to reach.
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Dec 27, 2021 20:08
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Soviet Union presented a direct thread to all the world powers, yet the Cold War doesn't come until after WW2 because the will and materiel were not there to make the world powers ready to go again immediately after WW1. What we have now may be a will, of a sort, but there's no way.
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Dec 27, 2021 20:10
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Lostconfused posted:Oh come on, WW2 itself is a reaction to Soviet Union. The Cold War is a reaction to the Soviet Union not being crushed in WW2. For the Nazis to even be capable of invading the Soviet Union, they had to conquer half of Europe and marshal the other half into an Anti-Soviet coalition.
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Dec 27, 2021 20:14
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The USA literally invaded the USSR in 1918, the need to militarily defeat each other is part of the foundation of the USSR. The PRC has a much different start and historic relationship with the USA. That doesn't mean it can't develop into global military confrontation but it needs a a fresh new argument to show it's actually happening.
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Dec 27, 2021 20:17
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pener I honestly don’t understand what you’re arguing. the US economy since ww2 has been a series of escalating conflicts to vent the tension caused by a permanent war footing. the only legislation that can pass any level of domestic government is increased security spending. how can you possibly argue that the apotheosis of imperial political economy does not present the material conditions for a third world war?
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Dec 27, 2021 20:21
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S Tier Serbian Communist Daddy
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Dec 27, 2021 20:25
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Centrist Committee posted:pener I honestly don’t understand what you’re arguing. the US economy since ww2 has been a series of escalating conflicts to vent the tension caused by a permanent war footing. the only legislation that can pass any level of domestic government is increased security spending. how can you possibly argue that the apotheosis of imperial political economy does not present the material conditions for a third world war? Because we're wasting massive amounts of expenditures on boondoggles and privatization schemes that have made it impossible for us to go toe to toe with a parity power anymore. I don't think we're even capable of another Iraq War scale buildup.
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Dec 27, 2021 21:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Because we're wasting massive amounts of expenditures on boondoggles and privatization schemes that have made it impossible for us to go toe to toe with a parity power anymore. I don't think we're even capable of another Iraq War scale buildup. It doesn’t mean the war is already over but that the US has pissed away its lead and likely given China the advantage.
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Dec 27, 2021 21:25
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There's no war. It's not even cold. We're just being eclipsed by a better player and can't even properly take a war footing.
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Dec 27, 2021 21:27
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I'm not denying that there's a contest for power, I'm denying that there's a "Cold War." Armed camps are more than just groups of military alliances, they're in direct opposition to each other waiting for their chance to do battle. Yemen can't even be called a proxy war between two camps, because China & Russia don't particularly care about the outcome there even if they do support Iran. What's happening there is a continuation of our Middle East policy. There isn't even a real possibility of conflict breaking out between any of these groups. Russia isn't ready for a war, China is only ready for a war in their own territory, the US and its allies aren't even ready for a war. I doubt China is unconcerned about Yemen given how much of their freight is shipped through the Suez Canal...
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Dec 27, 2021 21:29
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Spergin Morlock posted:I doubt China is unconcerned about Yemen given how much of their freight is shipped through the Suez Canal... The Saudi coalition already controls all the parts of Yemen that could block the straits there. If they win the situation won't change. If the "international community" really wanted to gently caress with Chinese shipping through the Suez, Yemen is totally unnecessary.
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Dec 27, 2021 21:31
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I found this interesting and figured some of the thread might also find it worth watching: Squid Game: Ideology and the New Soviet Man (22 minutes) It's a Marxist reading of Squid Game, much of which is fairly 101-level, but it also puts the show's events in the context of South Korea's specific history with capitalism. For example, I had never heard of the SsangYong Motor Company's mass layoffs and subsequent brutal police action, though neither surprised me. What did surprise me is that the car manufacturer and the police sued the striking workers for damages and won, which basically destroyed the lives of those workers in perpetuity via debt. I also didn't know that it was illegal in South Korea for media to say anything positive about North Korea, which is pretty lol.
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Dec 27, 2021 22:45
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:What's certainly happening is that the United States is trying to make a Cold War happen. All of this rhetoric is trying to build up support for re-armament and readiness, but even if there is support for it - it might be actually materially impossible to be ready for war with China or Russia. imagine if you will a war between two belligerent nations wherein one belligerent holds all the treasury bonds of, and is responsible for exporting most of the commodities to the other belligerent
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Dec 28, 2021 01:06
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The Voice of Labor posted:imagine if you will a war between two belligerent nations wherein one belligerent holds all the treasury bonds of, and is responsible for exporting most of the commodities to the other belligerent China is also about to reach 20% of global GDP. How do you contain that?
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Dec 28, 2021 01:14
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would you rather live under the CCP or the democrats
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Dec 28, 2021 01:29
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The Voice of Labor posted:imagine if you will a war between two belligerent nations wherein one belligerent holds all the treasury bonds of, and is responsible for exporting most of the commodities to the other belligerent the exports and supply chains you're absolutely right about, but it's worth clarifying that China only owns like 4% of US treasury bonds, it just sounds like a lot because 4% of US treasury bonds is over a trillion dollars
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Dec 28, 2021 01:36
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:China is also about to reach 20% of global GDP. How do you contain that? The Voice of Labor posted:imagine if you will a war between two belligerent nations wherein one belligerent holds all the treasury bonds of, and is responsible for exporting most of the commodities to the other belligerent 
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Dec 28, 2021 02:59
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okay I’m imagining Germany in both world wars and oh nooooooo
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Dec 28, 2021 03:07
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Raskolnikov38 posted:okay I’m imagining Germany in both world wars and oh nooooooo Oh so now we get to be Germany? Fantastic.
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Dec 28, 2021 03:24
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ed: not the appropriate thread, apologies.
Ronwayne has issued a correction as of 05:22 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 28, 2021 03:54
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Ronwayne posted:ed: not the appropriate thread, apologies. seems relevant to me. I mean, if you sew a bunch of nazi uniforms and the people you sew them for are too fat to fit into them, what's that say about the labor theory of value? it's like how you could make mudpies all day long but that doesn't really produce any value, or how native americans had a sustainable existance, but that doesn't really produce any value
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Dec 28, 2021 14:39
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The Voice of Labor posted:how native americans had a sustainable existance, but that doesn't really produce any value when you understand the labor theory of value completely
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Dec 28, 2021 15:21
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Communism: maybe let's not reduce everything down to a loving transaction
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Dec 28, 2021 15:40
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vyelkin posted:the exports and supply chains you're absolutely right about, but it's worth clarifying that China only owns like 4% of US treasury bonds, it just sounds like a lot because 4% of US treasury bonds is over a trillion dollars And anyway, I don't see how the Treasury bonds matter. Pener Kropoopkin posted:China is also about to reach 20% of global GDP. How do you contain that? Very carefully. But more seriously you can have a Cold War that both goes on for a long time and that you lose in the end without ever coming close to a win.
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Dec 28, 2021 15:42
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genericnick posted:And anyway, I don't see how the Treasury bonds matter. the cornerstone for the crazy magic pyramid scheme that is money in this neoliberal hellscape is the assumption that, eventually, debt will be paid. a country going to war with its financier is basically a colonial revolt. in the case of the united states it would be an actual facist turn, with the state overruling capital. in so far as there's a world outside of the united states, any confidence in a market economy would vanish as a result. really surprised to learn china's only holding 4%. if my baseless assumption had been right and it had been, like, 80% I don't think we would be doing the cold war part 2 speculation thing
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Dec 28, 2021 15:56
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The Voice of Labor posted:the cornerstone for the crazy magic pyramid scheme that is money in this neoliberal hellscape is the assumption that, eventually, debt will be paid. a country going to war with its financier is basically a colonial revolt. in the case of the united states it would be an actual facist turn, with the state overruling capital. in so far as there's a world outside of the united states, any confidence in a market economy would vanish as a result. like three quarters of US debt is owned by various US government bodies (state and local governments, federal bodies like the Federal Reserve or Social Security, etc.) and US investors like banks and pension funds, and the remaining quarter is divided up between foreign governments and foreign private investors. "foreigners own all our debt" is a xenophobic talking point more than anything else because the main people that the US owes money to are Americans. Anyway staunch US ally Japan owns more US debt than China does (but it's like 5% versus 4%), and just like anything else it's important not to fall into a Cold War thought trap of seeing foreign countries as unitary actors. Even if the Chinese or Japanese government wanted to liquidate its US treasury bonds for some reason, that doesn't mean that every private Japanese or Chinese investor is going to sell their assets on command vyelkin has issued a correction as of 16:10 on Dec 28, 2021 |
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Dec 28, 2021 16:06
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The Voice of Labor posted:the cornerstone for the crazy magic pyramid scheme that is money in this neoliberal hellscape is the assumption that, eventually, debt will be paid. a country going to war with its financier is basically a colonial revolt. in the case of the united states it would be an actual facist turn, with the state overruling capital. in so far as there's a world outside of the united states, any confidence in a market economy would vanish as a result. I mean vast holdings of US treasury bonds are a natural result of the Chinese trade policy. And if there's actually a serious shooting war between the US and China I doubt they'll still be loading those container ships in Shenzhen harbor no matter how the money flows look on paper.
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Dec 28, 2021 16:38
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the bigger issue would be the rest of the world seeing that the u.s. would rather wage war against its creditors than pay back what it had borrowed
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Dec 28, 2021 16:53
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China holds bonds not bilateral loans, unless the US defaults on its bonds, it doesn’t really matter.
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Dec 28, 2021 16:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Because we're wasting massive amounts of expenditures on boondoggles and privatization schemes that have made it impossible for us to go toe to toe with a parity power anymore. I don't think we're even capable of another Iraq War scale buildup. see: all the us military exercises where "red team" wipes the floor with "blue team"
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Dec 28, 2021 18:40
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The Voice of Labor posted:seems relevant to me. I mean, if you sew a bunch of nazi uniforms and the people you sew them for are too fat to fit into them, what's that say about the labor theory of value? it's like how you could make mudpies all day long but that doesn't really produce any value, or how native americans had a sustainable existance, but that doesn't really produce any value It doesn't say anything about labor theory of value. Even if the uniforms are useless for your customers, they still have use value. Even a mud pie has some kind of use value. None of which is realized without labor.
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Dec 28, 2021 22:20
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So are we not pouncing on that weird as hell take on native culture not producing value when it's literally their food forests and trail clearings that made Amerikkka so valuable to colonize or what.
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Dec 28, 2021 22:37
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tokin opposition posted:So are we not pouncing on that weird as hell take on native culture not producing value when it's literally their food forests and trail clearings that made Amerikkka so valuable to colonize or what. croup coughfield posted:when you understand the labor theory of value completely
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Dec 28, 2021 23:32
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tokin opposition posted:So are we not pouncing on that weird as hell take on native culture not producing value when it's literally their food forests and trail clearings that made Amerikkka so valuable to colonize or what. We should all post our favorite noble savage takes itt.
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Dec 28, 2021 23:56
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| # ? May 23, 2024 07:49 |
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tokin opposition posted:So are we not pouncing on that weird as hell take on native culture not producing value when it's literally their food forests and trail clearings that made Amerikkka so valuable to colonize or what. I only have patience for one stupid idea at a time.
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Dec 28, 2021 23:59
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