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checkplease posted:Ok here are some quotes: We are not shown anything similar with Trinity. There is no scene of her sitting alone in her motorcycle workshop with a blank stare, or of Chad barely able to get her out of bed in the morning, or of her scrolling through the MatrixWiki trying to understand what's happening. What we are shown is that she's got a life that pays for an expensive hobby, a husband, and some kids. In terms of what we're told, it's barely anything that hints at a similar dissatisfaction or alienation -- "I gave up searching for something real a long time ago" juxtaposed against an upper middle-class lifestyle, spouse, and kids is peak Hallmark Movie writing. Even if she 'gave up on finding something real' and found a family instead, then it doesn't make her any less of a deadbeat to walk out on them. checkplease posted:What we seem to keep coming back to is the whole nuclear family. Neo as a single male runs off to join the revolution? Awesome, lets kung-fu. But if you have a kid and a husband, sorry gotta stay home.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 01:25 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:25 |
unlimited shrimp posted:We are also shown Neo's grubby apartment, him sitting despondent in his cubicle, his friends having to twist his arm to get him to go out, Trinity's dialog when they meet ("I know what you've been doing. I know why you hardly sleep, why you live alone and why, night after night, you sit at your computer. You're looking for him."), etc. So we know that, despite Smith's summary, Neo is miserable and obsessed. "Women stop being people after having kids" that's something society believes and strictly enforces. What a surprise that a dude's misery is depicted different from a woman's.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 02:20 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:As I noted earlier in the thread, the Smiths are undead. They’re an uprising of the inhuman dehumanized. It's increasingly apparent that you have zero literacy in trans issues, and this extends so far that you don't even listen to what trans people are saying to you ITT. Watching you systematically try to steer the conversation away from this topic and freeze out other posters is also embarrassing. Anti-trans therapists and other authority figures aren't attacking trans people from a place of expertise or concern for their welfare, they're doing it out of fear and a generalized sense that they're losing control of society. When we discover that the analyst is a simplistically deplorable person despite his layers of smug self-superiority and claims of vast intellect, that tracks. In the end he's a coward whose power comes purely from bureaucratic connections. That all tracks. The analyst is an intellectual authority figure in the same way Mike Pence is. When you strip away all of the excuses for why this therapy is designed as torture, you find the same old misogynists working their grifts. Having a therapy practice doesn't make you an absolute unquestionable good. That so many people ITT are blind to this, and instead of accepting it, veer toward absurd theories like "the Wachowskis are pro-mental illness!" essentially proves that Resurrections is especially relevant to our present social conditions. Or to be more precise, VROOM VROOM posted:Seeing Resurrections Resurrect the original moral panic around The Matrix is cranking it way up in my book, currently at a solid 7.5/10
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 02:21 |
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unlimited shrimp posted:
I think some of us are just approaching the kids and Trinity scenes differently. For myself at least, the kids are more symbolic as a means to control and limit her just as in real life where women are often expected to sacrifice their careers for domestic duties. I am not arguing that the kids/bots are not real as I agree that the matrix story has tried to show that programs, humans are machines are all equal life. But they clearly only appear in scenes to pull Trinity away from Neo. For the record, I don't think parents should abandon their kids, but I don't think the film encourages this either. And I don't think we are going to convince each other at this point of the differing views. We can call Trinity a bad mom. There have been many people who have done great things, but been poor parents (like every president). The films ends simply with them saying they are going to change the matrix. No reason we cannot just assume this means they create a six flags (wb after all) in San Francisco and take the kids to it.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 02:34 |
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We're supposed to argue pedantically until we hate ourselves, eachother, and the movie, not agree to disagree. lunar detritus posted:"Women stop being people after having kids" that's something society believes and strictly enforces. What a surprise that a dude's misery is depicted different from a woman's. Her misery isn't depicted, period. Why that is, is an interesting but separate discussion. As it is, we're just writing fanfiction, because it's not in the text. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jan 2, 2022 |
# ? Jan 2, 2022 02:45 |
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lunar detritus posted:"Women stop being people after having kids" that's something society believes and strictly enforces. What a surprise that a dude's misery is depicted different from a woman's. Imagine a movie where there was something approaching equity in depicting their misery instead of Trinity getting short changed. checkplease posted:I think some of us are just approaching the kids and Trinity scenes differently. For myself at least, the kids are more symbolic as a means to control and limit her just as in real life where women are often expected to sacrifice their careers for domestic duties. The kids and her husband being hollow shells that only exist for plot functions is something that actively undermines the story. It makes Trinity seem like a chump for being fooled, compared to the more elaborately staged (and presented) life for Neo.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 02:49 |
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Maarak posted:
I think thats a fair criticism. Trinity was awakened longer than neo and with him up to almost the very end (so many metal poles!). But there doesn't seem to the same memories of that life problem which require neo to be a game developer of these memories. Clearly Trinity should have been a rival game developer, or at least owning a matrix game fanfic blog. I guess in part it's that Trinity is supposed to be pre-ascension unlike Neo. So she's easier to control. Or maybe Lana really feels like family is the strongest force. Or she's working out family issues on screen similar to Spielberg.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 03:09 |
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unlimited shrimp posted:Her misery isn't depicted, period. Why that is, is an interesting but separate discussion. As it is, we're just writing fanfiction, because it's not in the text. There are literally multiple scenes dedicated entirely to the fact she is unhappy and belittled and can only find something that brings her joy outside of her family, either in conversations with Neo or in her motorcycles. It not being about video games doesn't make it less real than Neo's feelings.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 03:35 |
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ImpAtom posted:There are literally multiple scenes dedicated entirely to the fact she is unhappy and belittled and can only find something that brings her joy outside of her family, either in conversations with Neo or in her motorcycles. It not being about video games doesn't make it less real than Neo's feelings. The third she brings up Trinity's Ducati as another 'coincidence' because she loves motorcycles and builds them with her friend. "You have your analyst, I have my bikes." Then the line about her husband laughing when she said Trinity looked like her. Up to this point, it's played like two people having conversations as part of a growing relationship, not Trinity baring her soul about being chronically unhappy, or belittled, or only finding joy outside her family. In the next scene together, she explicitly says that his presence prompted her current crisis and feelings of unreality ("After we spoke, I realized my life wasn’t a life.), and then the Analyst steps in to intervene. If Trinity was suffering like Neo then she wouldn't have needed Neo to realize it. After that, it's the decision scene.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 04:04 |
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I liked this move a lot, even more than 2+3, but it was definitely suffering from the lack of fight choreography from Yuen Woo Ping.
G-III fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jan 2, 2022 |
# ? Jan 2, 2022 04:54 |
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When I came out as trans to my parents, the literal first thing my mother demanded to know was 'who influenced you?!' People saying that all of this is just Q-Anon stuff can seriously go gently caress themselves.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 04:54 |
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Trinity died but then her remains were reassembled, regrown, she was resurrected, and then forced into this iteration of the matrix in a "normal" nuclear family role. Her learning all of that and then remembering everything from the previous movies happened, I'm kind of stunned people are saying this puts Trinity's actions in the same boat as the "my family doesn't invite me to Thanksgiving anymore" crowd. They parallel her and Neo's creation so much when this stuff is revealed it's a given that she's similarly not really feeling her current life situation on some level even if they don't explicitly show scenes of her seeing a therapist or whatever.G-III posted:I liked this move a lot, even more than 2+3, but it was definitely suffering from the lack of fight choreography from Yuen Woo Ping. Yeah the action was weak, and it was a bit frustrating because each of the fights had a "a great fight scene could happen here" setting. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jan 2, 2022 |
# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:03 |
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Sodomy Hussein posted:It's increasingly apparent that you have zero literacy in trans issues, and this extends so far that you don't even listen to what trans people are saying to you ITT. Watching you systematically try to steer the conversation away from this topic and freeze out other posters is also embarrassing. Leaving aside the trans politics stuff for just a moment, the NPH character doesn't act as Tom's therapist "out of fear and a generalized sense that he's losing control of society". Like, that's simply not what happens in the film. Other characters ("The Suits") already had absolute control over society, while NPH's deal is part of a riskier plan that ends up backfiring due to his overconfidence. (NPH is also, specifically, only Tom Anderson's therapist, because the entire plan is centered on Neo's status as god-embodiment of the matrix universe for poorly-explained reasons.) These are fairly basic arguments over facts. A few pages back, somebody wrote that NPH is trying to keep Trinity away from her kids. But the actual plot of the film is that Trinity openly hates her stupid kids and longs to get away from them. Which is more accurate? The trouble is that we're not actually talking about the film, but about ineffable essences 'inside' the characters. It doesn't matter what NPH does, because he has a transphobic essence, and criticism of the protagonists undermines the struggle of their revolutionary essence against him. But why would a computer program designed by aliens be misogynist in the first place?
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:26 |
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Because the movie is made by humans reflecting their messy human experience, not a portal into an ideologically pure world, you loving moron.
Shiroc fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jan 2, 2022 |
# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:30 |
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Shiroc posted:Because the movie is made by humans reflecting their messy human experience you loving moron. Well, that's the issue. If the film is a reflection of messy humanity, and that leads to things like the villain's motivations not making sense, then we can examine why the humans presented such a blurry picture of the enemy. This isn't an attack on the film or anything. I am taking seriously the line about how "the matrix weaponizes every dream", and reading the ending in that context.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:43 |
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This movie makes for a good double feature with Don’t Look Up.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:45 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, that's the issue. If the film is a reflection of messy humanity, and that leads to things like the villain's motivations not making sense, then we can examine why the humans presented such a blurry picture of the enemy. And I'm telling you to go gently caress yourself. You spend so much time making fun of people for 'Denny's Placemats' until you decide to invent your own to try to dominate the narrative to your own suiting. Seriously go gently caress yourself with your garbage gimmick that ran out years ago.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:45 |
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I wish this movie took place in Chicago like the first one.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:46 |
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I wish they had finally dropped the battery angle and used the original plan of human brains plugged into the Matrix being used as processing power by the machines.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 06:56 |
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Shiroc posted:And I'm telling you to go gently caress yourself. You spend so much time making fun of people for 'Denny's Placemats' until you decide to invent your own to try to dominate the narrative to your own suiting. Seriously go gently caress yourself with your garbage gimmick that ran out years ago. The dude is explicitly taking delight in deadnaming a character. You're not going to win this. Just try to ignore them.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:04 |
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they're doing a pretty good job cosplaying The Analyst. very meta. very Matrix
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:08 |
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You're not being fair to SMG, he said at the start of that post "leaving aside the trans politics", it's literally impossible to have a coherent critique of the movie while doing so, so you can't expect his ideas to make any sense at all as they are the deranged ravings of a reactionary out of their depth. Just read his post in a ben shapiro voice.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:11 |
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Lots of words being spent making excuses for the writing instead of asking why it was written this way. Why did Lana Wachowski, David Mitchell and Aleksandar Hemon make it explicit that Neo was, first, a solitary and unfulfilled seeker of truth and hidden knowledge, and later, a gaslit and medicated victim of forces beyond his control, and yet they wrote Trinity like a deadbeat who was willing to walk out on her family? Is the message that you have no obligation to your family? Is it that familial obligation is something to be resented? Is it that nothing should stand in the way of self-fulfillment? Is it that being a lonely volcel is the same as being a bored spouse? Is it that even female directors give male characters the full treatment while female characters get the CliffsNotes? I don't know, but all of that is more interesting than the apologetics for threadbare characterization. Neo Rasa posted:Trinity died but then her remains were reassembled, regrown, she was resurrected, and then forced into this iteration of the matrix in a "normal" nuclear family role. Her learning all of that and then remembering everything from the previous movies happened, I'm kind of stunned people are saying this puts Trinity's actions in the same boat as the "my family doesn't invite me to Thanksgiving anymore" crowd. They parallel her and Neo's creation so much when this stuff is revealed it's a given that she's similarly not really feeling her current life situation on some level even if they don't explicitly show scenes of her seeing a therapist or whatever. It's explicitly stated that Neo precipitated her believing that her life isn't real. The tension at the end is contrived as the open question of whether Trinity will take the red pill. She even says "it's too late" before she changes her mind and chooses Neo. In contrast, there's never any doubt that Neo will take it. We are neither told she's in turmoil like Neo, nor shown she's in turmoil like Neo, so we can infer it to (I guess) give cover to the writers, but I'm not sure why we'd want to be so generous.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:14 |
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ImpAtom posted:The dude is explicitly taking delight in deadnaming a character. You're not going to win this. Just try to ignore them. I know because I had to tell them to gently caress off with calling the Wachowskis "brothers" a couple years ago. I've just lost patience with this trash loving person making GBS threads things up. Trinity is obviously unhappy and unsettled, even if less clearly so than Neo. The movie probably would have been stronger to give more time to her or to have entirely shifted to her as the primary character. Shiroc fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jan 2, 2022 |
# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:16 |
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oh this reminds me of the other thing I was going to mention about the "trans politics" line, which is that things like The Matrix series and Sense8 are as much about trans identity and experience as about "politics" and power structures. of course one can argue endlessly about whether these things are in fact coterminous
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:19 |
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Shiroc posted:The movie probably would have been stronger to give more time to her or to have entirely shifted to her as the primary character.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:21 |
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https://twitter.com/gonzo6664/status/1477510497448579073?s=21
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:29 |
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Shiroc posted:When I came out as trans to my parents, the literal first thing my mother demanded to know was 'who influenced you?!' Would you say that Trinity's awakening was more depicted as cult recruitment or as coming out? I feel like there's a big disconnect here, and it's that telling someone to disregard eveything in the world and follow this higher purpose we're telling you about is culty (and Q) as gently caress. This wouldn't even be up for discussion if Lana were a scientologist. The film tries to have it both ways. It shows a cult recruitment but tells us it's self-actualization. The movie shows us Neo definitely influencing Trinity. It shows the ship's crew conspiring to recruit her. She is the object of a heist. She does not wake herself up.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:30 |
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Super.Jesus posted:I wish they had finally dropped the battery angle and used the original plan of human brains plugged into the Matrix being used as processing power by the machines. They sort of split the difference by making it clear that certain kinds of human brain activity generate much more power than others. Presumably plugged-in humans are somehow used to run the delicate, demanding calculations that keep the fusion plants running.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:31 |
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moths posted:Would you say that Trinity's awakening was more depicted as cult recruitment or as coming out? Yes she explicitly loving does. It is a literal plot point she wakes herself up without even the whole red/blue pill thing.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:38 |
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ImpAtom posted:Yes she explicitly loving does. It is a literal plot point she wakes herself up without even the whole red/blue pill thing. Contrast that with Neo's characterization in the first film. He was already looking for Morpheus; he didn't need to have that chat with Trinity at the nightclub before he woke himself up.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:50 |
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Did you miss the part where people ask Neo if he should leave her alone because what if she's happy? The decisions are is made before she's given a choice.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:50 |
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Finally watched this movie. I still don't understand what happened to Zion?
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:54 |
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Ferrinus posted:They sort of split the difference by making it clear that certain kinds of human brain activity generate much more power than others. Presumably plugged-in humans are somehow used to run the delicate, demanding calculations that keep the fusion plants running. Got definite crypto vibes this time around, where even if it's stupid and inefficient, squatting more hashes or whatever the gently caress is still considered valuable.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 07:55 |
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moths posted:Did you miss the part where people ask Neo if he should leave her alone because what if she's happy? Neo's whole plan and bargain with The Analyst involves asking her and respecting her choice. The whole heist is because this is The Matrix 4 and they needed to make sure they actually could extract her from the system if/when the Analyst reneged on the deal. Describing things as 'influencing' is loaded language to make any time a person learns or decides something about themselves from meeting someone else seem sinister.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 08:11 |
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I think NuMorpheus popping out of a toilet stall and telling Neo "Yo remember that Smith/Morpheus dude you programmed to rescue you? Well, guess what!" probably "influenced" Neo more than anything he said to Trinity.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 08:21 |
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If she hadn't met Neo, and Neo hadn't made a concerted effort to wake her up, it's entirely possible that Trinity would've lived out the rest of her days as "Tiffany" either with some vague dissatisfaction she could never place or resolve, or, for all we know, complete contentment. But so what? A preoccupation with "influence" as some kind of corrosive external force implies it's possible to somehow be free of outside influences and just exist as some kind of incorruptible monad that does nothing but express its own inviolate essence. That's not how anything or anybody works. Trinity was given the option to leave her family for a different life, and she took it, and that's that.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jan 2, 2022 |
# ? Jan 2, 2022 08:23 |
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Welp I saw it. I enjoyed it, but I definitely understand the mixed reception it has gotten. It is a bit hokey. I would say the main flaw for me was that I couldn't maintain my suspension of disbelief that the actors were the characters at times. Neo felt like Keanu Reeves. Trinity felt like Carrie-Anne Moss. The movie didn't feel like a matrix movie in style or in presentation at times. Smith was completely unconvincing as the same character played by Hugo Weaving, the Analyst was well played and a nifty addition on the other hand, but too much of a pushover at the end to feel like a compelling villain. The Merovingian was the minor character I was most excited to see return and felt wasted. The world-building parts were cool and interesting and I found myself having deep sympathy for the machines. I'm not sad to have seen this movie, and I like the lore this movie has contributed to the franchise. I think it could've been better executed with better action sequences and a stronger sense of improbable odds along the way. I like it more than The Last Jedi (which I hated) and don't see any similarities. Certainly better than any Star Trek movie since the 90s. I wouldn't compare it to Marvel mass produced movies either. I have mixed feelings where it stands ultimately. Bodyholes fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Jan 2, 2022 |
# ? Jan 2, 2022 08:24 |
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Something about this conversation about a movie with a scene expressing frustration as having your art pigeonholed as one thing in particular where people get increasingly angry at each other for getting something else out of the movie than them feels incredibly off to me.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 08:59 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:25 |
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Most of the recent outright anger has been around SMG's gimmick and backdoor transphobia, not as much the other posts of people debating meanings of things.
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# ? Jan 2, 2022 09:11 |