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Yeah Labyrinthos is the least story relevant zone in this expac considering that the big mystery of 'why won't the pacifistic country help us fight the end of the world' ends up being 'because they're planning on running from it, like they did with Garleans, because they're pacifists'. Like the only real surprise ends up being that they've been in contact with the Loporrits and that's revealed on the moon and not in Labyrinthos.
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Jan 3, 2022 07:06
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I'm still left wondering how they sent the Loporrits books and info, and everything my mind conjures is probably either sillier or more interesting than what the real answer is.
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Jan 3, 2022 07:13
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Hellioning posted:Yeah Labyrinthos is the least story relevant zone in this expac considering that the big mystery of 'why won't the pacifistic country help us fight the end of the world' ends up being 'because they're planning on running from it, like they did with Garleans, because they're pacifists'. Yeah and the story really does not think well of pacifists. Alisaie even says that non-interventionism comes from the same place as Garlemald’s fascist imperialism: a deeply conservative worldview that doesn’t really value other peoples
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Jan 3, 2022 07:13
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Ironslave posted:I'm still left wondering how they sent the Loporrits books and info, and everything my mind conjures is probably either sillier or more interesting than what the real answer is. They seem to be on the forefront of teleportation magic research, I assume they just zapped a couple of crates up there. Books aren't going to get aether sickness, after all.
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Jan 3, 2022 07:18
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HPanda posted:Maybe a resettlement effort? Moon restoration or bust. Also moon bozja-like, moon deep dungeon (and call it Lunar Subterrane) , moon player housing, moon non combat animal crossing poo poo with lopos. Whatever man, I just wanna chill with rabbits in space
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Jan 3, 2022 07:18
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Mordiceius posted:Amh Araeng had the same problem. It ain't great. Split zones are cool for story, bad for fates. if they're gonna pick one thing to err on the side of when designing zones i'd rather it be story than fate convenience
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Jan 3, 2022 07:19
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thetoughestbean posted:Yeah and the story really does not think well of pacifists. Alisaie even says that non-interventionism comes from the same place as Garlemald’s fascist imperialism: a deeply conservative worldview that doesn’t really value other peoples I don't think the story opposes pacifism, just the intentional hiding of information that could prevent or limit harm and refusing to communicate
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Jan 3, 2022 07:20
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Grimoire posted:Moon restoration or bust. Also moon bozja-like, moon deep dungeon (and call it Lunar Subterrane) , moon player housing, moon non combat animal crossing poo poo with lopos. Whatever man, I just wanna chill with rabbits in space Yeah, I'd love to do more stuff on the moon. There's a lot of super important plot action there, obviously, but I want to know what's up with that crashed Allagan ship and the weird fungus caves and the cactuars... did Hydaelyn seed that life there too? Are some of them space aliens like the dragons that happened to land there? Is there more Allagan junk in space???
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Jan 3, 2022 07:22
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ImpAtom posted:I don't think the story opposes pacifism, just the intentional hiding of information that could prevent or limit harm and refusing to communicate It doesn’t oppose pacifism per se but it definitely condemns isolationism and non-interventionism. The story takes the pretty strong stance that you should care about what’s happening in other countries and be an active member of the international community
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Jan 3, 2022 07:26
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I think if you're the kind of pacifist who's actively trying to stop wars instead of just feeling smug about all the wars you aren't fighting in (because you are not under threat), the story is not going to feel like it's criticizing you.
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Jan 3, 2022 07:26
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I do wonder what they will do, if anything, about the big cloud of Zodiark funk wafting out of the place he was sealed.
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Jan 3, 2022 07:31
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the opposition to Sharlayans pacifism clearly has a lot to do with it leaning on pacifism because it doesn't care to engage with the world, sees itself as above other nations, and, as we see, is very rich and well-protected from enemies by its remote island location and advanced aetherological prowess, so it can get away with not caring about e.g. garlemald. It's like if G8 countries claimed pacifism as the reason they wouldn't help climate refugees, or something like that. I don't know that FFXIV even includes any characters whose pacifism is about engaging with the world and bettering it, rather than running from it
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Jan 3, 2022 07:32
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Begemot posted:Yeah, I'd love to do more stuff on the moon. There's a lot of super important plot action there, obviously, but I want to know what's up with that crashed Allagan ship and the weird fungus caves and the cactuars... did Hydaelyn seed that life there too? Are some of them space aliens like the dragons that happened to land there? Is there more Allagan junk in space??? Like a surprisingly many things, the story about that Allagan satellite is explained in the sightseeing log.  I recommend doing them, or at least looking them up, as a lot of random info is buried in the logs.
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Jan 3, 2022 07:33
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Labyrinthos wasn't really needed narratively, or at least didn't need to be a whole zone narratively; on the other hand, it's cool as hell and I'm unironically glad we have three zones of bumbling academics doing their thing. More Garlemald build-up could work narratvely, but would also be a very depressing section if it was two whole zones of that. If you want six zones in an expansion, I'm not sure where else you put one that wouldn't negatively impact the emotional pacing of the story. Maaaaaybe more World Unsundered if you could somehow introduce Amaurot into the story? Really no idea where it could be placed in the narrative though.
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Jan 3, 2022 07:43
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The big problem with Labyrinthos is that they take away the rad music in the second half.
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Jan 3, 2022 08:06
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HPanda posted:Labyrinthos wasn't really needed narratively, or at least didn't need to be a whole zone narratively; on the other hand, it's cool as hell and I'm unironically glad we have three zones of bumbling academics doing their thing. If I was keeping the split zone, what I'd narratively do is... actually, Werlyt. Have one of the level 80 zones be half of Werlyt (yes, this would force the Weapon trials to be mandatory) as Gaius coming to terms with the fact that no, the Empire Was Never Great and capping off his role in the story, and also note it as the staging ground for the Ilsabard Contingent as well as there being a lot of refugees there, including Garlean machinists and so forth. Then when you come back there for the other half, you're there for critical parts for the Ragnarok (because again, Garlean machinists) while everyone else is doing similar, and also at the same time the Final Days is also going on, giving another Final Daysed-up zone.
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Jan 3, 2022 08:12
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I kinda wish more things were mandatory so they could use them in the msq, like Werlyt and the like
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Jan 3, 2022 08:14
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Yeah, the story's treatment of Sharlyan seems less of judging them for their pacifism at it is judging them for their isolationism and sense of superiority over the other countries, and the pacifism is just a part of that. If you're looking about weird treatment of pacifists, try the botanist quests, which, just kind of goes 'yeah Fufucha doesn't like helping the war effort because she's a pacifist but have you considered that some people are getting hurt because of the war?" Like maybe I missed something but it didn't really address any of Fufucha's complaints about helping the war effort in favor of guilting her into helping anyway because people are getting hurt.
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Jan 3, 2022 08:17
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I think we are going to rebuild that park outside the train terminal. It was mentioned that it actually existed before most of the city so it would be symbolic of the beginning of reconstruction. Obviously this is me assuming basic needs have been stabilized off camera first. Also it has a connection to solus and they do love their emet fan service.
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Jan 3, 2022 08:27
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Begemot posted:They seem to be on the forefront of teleportation magic research, I assume they just zapped a couple of crates up there. Books aren't going to get aether sickness, after all. I prefer my mental image of a giant aether-powered catapult
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Jan 3, 2022 08:39
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that park idea for garlemald is very fun. one of my disappointments with both garlemald and the ancients is that it would've been nice to get glimpses of their functioning cities at their heights, and not just after the fact, even if only in concept art or something. re: werlyt, I was really struck by the decision to sort of just shuffle Gaius offscreen entirely. there were ways to write around werlyt, and even if you didn't he could've sent a message with Cid at the end, but they very intentionally keep him silent and offscreen. don't have a real reaction to it or know what it means, I just found it surprising; it'd be interesting to know how they decided on that approach. it's especially surprising after his re-entry to the plot is so significant (like, he's sort of placed on a par with estinien, who obviously features heavily in EW) and he's very specifically put in a position in that whole imperial palace sequence where we get a clearer sense of both how he feels about the ascians puppeting the empire to its death and a very specific reason for him to want to fight zenos. I know a lot of people were expecting he might be involved somehow, so I hope we get more on that in an interview at some point. e: and as a character beat for him, I think I lean towards liking it. rare to see a character in fiction internalize and enact the lesson that sometimes the best thing you can do for everyone is shut the gently caress up and do the work. the idea that he consciously effaces himself from these historical events is compelling. though man his reasoning for not coming to garlemald was incorrect, in retrospect, given that it turned out to be basically impossible for him to accidentally cause the problems he was envisioning on account of the fact that almost everyone was dead and our real task was convincing survivors not to get themselves killed, which he probably would've been better at than the twins. Valentin fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Jan 3, 2022 |
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Jan 3, 2022 09:04
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Quintus would have probably tried to arrest and/or immediately execute Gaius. Gaius is a hard boy so he could probably fight them, but that probably kills them and drives their refugee charges into the snow to die. It IS possible he could have talked down the girl in the hostel, though. If they'd known this was coming they could have potentially called Gaius and done a ruse to talk those guys out of their bunker, Lt. Onoda style, but events were moving a little faster than that.
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Jan 3, 2022 09:18
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Nessus posted:Quintus would have probably tried to arrest and/or immediately execute Gaius. Gaius is a hard boy so he could probably fight them, but that probably kills them and drives their refugee charges into the snow to die. It IS possible he could have talked down the girl in the hostel, though. Nobody in Garlemald would trust Gaius, he's officially the assassin of the Emperor remember.
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Jan 3, 2022 09:22
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Valentin posted:that park idea for garlemald is very fun. one of my disappointments with both garlemald and the ancients is that it would've been nice to get glimpses of their functioning cities at their heights, and not just after the fact, even if only in concept art or something. I've seen people say that Gaius should turn up to be the new emperor of Garlemald, but I feel like that angle is basically just doing Werlyt again, but bigger. And honestly, I think it might be better to put that one on a smaller stage; for whatever reason, Gaius is the one bad guy that a significant amount of people actually do hold their crimes against to such a degree that their redemption/sympathy story rings wrong for them. I've never seen a significant amount of people say 'actually Emet/Fordola/Yotsuyu is bad and doesn't deserve this sort of positive treatment', but I do see that about Gaius.
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Jan 3, 2022 09:34
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Cleretic posted:I've seen people say that Gaius should turn up to be the new emperor of Garlemald, but I feel like that angle is basically just doing Werlyt again, but bigger. And honestly, I think it might be better to put that one on a smaller stage; for whatever reason, Gaius is the one bad guy that a significant amount of people actually do hold their crimes against to such a degree that their redemption/sympathy story rings wrong for them. I've never seen a significant amount of people say 'actually Emet/Fordola/Yotsuyu is bad and doesn't deserve this sort of positive treatment', but I do see that about Gaius. Hint it's because they all get punished on a personal level via death (or imprisonment with fear of death) whilst Gaius runs around fighting Ascians and his narrative "punishment" involves the deaths of his adoptive war orphan children which people find annoying because that's more the war orphan children dying than Gaius being somehow directly punished. Also by their very nature the ones you listed get a much more focused time spent on their whole deal thanks to being part of the MSQ that everyone sees, whereas Gaius' big narrative "punishment" is an optional storyline which is also pulling double duty as an extended reference to gundam at that. Honestly I think Gaius should show up in whatever happens next in Garlemald, but on the side of no more empire at all. In comparison to say, Nerva who would be the side in favour of continuing the Empire with well, Nerva in charge (as he's got a lineage claim, as opposed to Gaius simply having the same claim Solus once had of being a Legatus).
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Jan 3, 2022 09:37
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Yeah, like, my problem with Fordola having a bomb collar was the idea itself, per see. As Arenvald stated, she's volunteering for the missions for seemingly no gain on her part, the bomb collar is just a safety precaution. But I was very annoyed that Fordola was running around with a bomb collar when Gaius, the guy responsible for conquering Ala Mhigo and creating the systems that caused Fordola to collaborate and commit her crimes in the first place, was elected president of a place he conquered by virtue of being good at the war thing, as proven by him conquering it and then unconquering it. Also Emet and Yotsuyu kind of died for their crimes.
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Jan 3, 2022 09:45
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Lyon and Pagaga show up one night and kill Gaius. We find out by reading the newspaperHellioning posted:Yeah, like, my problem with Fordola having a bomb collar was the idea itself, per see. As Arenvald stated, she's volunteering for the missions for seemingly no gain on her part, the bomb collar is just a safety precaution. But I was very annoyed that Fordola was running around with a bomb collar when Gaius, the guy responsible for conquering Ala Mhigo and creating the systems that caused Fordola to collaborate and commit her crimes in the first place, was elected president of a place he conquered by virtue of being good at the war thing, as proven by him conquering it and then unconquering it. Gaius isn’t president or anything, he’s helping but he’s not a civilian leader
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Jan 3, 2022 09:45
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It's also funny because Fordola is like 75% likely to be able to survive the death of her physical body if she wants to (which she doesn't but still).
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Jan 3, 2022 09:53
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Yeah if Gaius showed up to be a yojimbo for the Garlean settlement or something, that would actually be cool and would probably help them out. On the other hand, this should be Jullus's job.
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Jan 3, 2022 10:03
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Gaius is just kinda paper thin character wise to be honest. Fordola is fleshed out and explained in a very believable way, Gaius did what he did because… Might makes right? I dunno, I don’t know anything about the guy. He was a true believer? Why? What changed? How did a guy on the ground for 40 years not see what he was doing and what woke him up? I liked Werlyt and I’m not calling for his head or anything but I still feel like I don’t know anything about him.
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Jan 3, 2022 10:05
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:Gaius is just kinda paper thin character wise to be honest. Fordola is fleshed out and explained in a very believable way, Gaius did what he did because… Might makes right? I dunno, I don’t know anything about the guy. He was a true believer? Why? What changed? How did a guy on the ground for 40 years not see what he was doing and what woke him up? I liked Werlyt and I’m not calling for his head or anything but I still feel like I don’t know anything about him. Gaius was part of the army directly under Solus when Solus was a Legatus. He was almost like a son to the emperor in how he was treated as a favoured leader. He was given his own legion for his exemplary service, and endeavoured to have his legion uphold the "true ideals" of Garlemald. Which is that the Mighty have a duty to lead and protect the weak, and that by rooting out corrupt and decaying governments they are helping to liberate the people and uplift them into glorious life under Garlean rule. Gaius' is completely honest in everything he says on this level, his subordinates however have been hiding the worst of the empire from him by the point we meet in ARR, as the further the Imperial Campaign went on, the more awful the people in charge became without Gaius' ironclad will and determination. It's really notable that Ala Mihgo was a lot happier under him than it was under the Mad King, or Zenos. It's also worth noting that Gaius like Quintus is old, old enough that the start of the empire was only a few years before their birth (if not after it in Quintus case). They were there for the first strives towards global dominance when Solus would've been pushing hard all the glorious narratives that would become decayed by human greed and sin. His world view is shattered thrice over, first by Lahabrea's manipulation crushing his dreams of Eorzea. Then by Varis' and Garlemald's decision to use the Black Rose (something Gaius successfully argued against on the basis that it is an improper tool, one of total destruction that leaves nobody left to uplift). Then finally by the discovery of Solus' true nature as an Ascian from the beginning. This is followed by Werlyt having him deal with the children he loved being destroyed by the system he upheld because of one of the people who abuse it in ways he didn't know was happening until it was too late.
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Jan 3, 2022 10:15
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Valentin posted:I don't know that FFXIV even includes any characters whose pacifism is about engaging with the world and bettering it, rather than running from it Would Louisoix and the Circle of Knowing alongside the Students of Baldesion work for this? Maybe they're not pacifists, it's possible that I'm missing some information I don't know. I wouldn't say the Scions of the Seventh Dawn would fit even though they're working for peace, so maybe the Circle of Knowing wouldn't either. Lord_Magmar posted:Nobody in Garlemald would trust Gaius, he's officially the assassin of the Emperor remember. Maximus does say this explicitly before you leave for Garlemald. Also, I may be misremembering, but I'm like 99% sure there's some side dialogue when talking to NPCs sometime during Garlemald that things would absolutely have turned out way worse if Gaius did come along.
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Jan 3, 2022 10:40
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If Gaius had come along Quintis probably would have claimed the Alliance intended to install him as a puppet emperor. Or that Gaius was using the alliance as a way to make a claim for the throne himself after having assassinated the Emperor. Both of which would have made the attempt to communicate even harder, and might have led to needless military bloodshed sooner than it already nearly occurred. Also to further the whole deal with Gaius, remember he legitimately offered to protect Eorzea from the primal threat via Ultima Weapon, provided they agreed to become vassal states of the Empire under his governance (like Ala Mihgo). With the caveat that if they should refuse, he would have to destroy them alongside those summoning Primals. He legitimately believes that his own might makes him a better leader of Eorzea than the existing governments, in part because he intends to protect the people of Eorzea from threats the existing leadership cannot. This is also why he questions why the Warrior of Light doesn’t push to rule Eorzea as they’re already protecting it.
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Jan 3, 2022 10:49
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I am actually a little disappointed that Jullus in Japanese got an anime protagonist voice, but in English he didn't obviously get an "I'm Naruto MonkeyDLuffy Deku" voice to cement his personality in the same way.
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Jan 3, 2022 11:36
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I quite like the british theatre dub meaning there aren't really any stock archetype voices, everyone by and large sound like real people
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Jan 3, 2022 11:43
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A correction, Gaius is 56. 6 years older than the Empire, he grew up seeing the glory and growth and “heroic” side of the Empire and by the time the real horror began he was far enough removed that he could assume things like Nael and Black Rose were individual bad eggs instead of the point of the Empire. Because how could the man he looked up to, Solus Zos Galvus, a man he saw like a father, have created something horrible. It must be individuals taking advantage of the Empire he sees as glorious and just and rightfully destined to guide and protect the world.
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Jan 3, 2022 12:02
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No Dignity posted:I quite like the british theatre dub meaning there aren't really any stock archetype voices, everyone by and large sound like real people That's why Meteion is so grating. They cast her for her despair voice then she had to do a stupid cartoon voice for the blue form.
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Jan 3, 2022 12:24
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Rand Brittain posted:I think if you're the kind of pacifist who's actively trying to stop wars instead of just feeling smug about all the wars you aren't fighting in (because you are not under threat), the story is not going to feel like it's criticizing you. yea the scorn for pacifists in the story is for isolationists who simply smugly sit on the sidelines and go 'wow war sure seems bad, bet you feel like a dumbass being in one huh' as if 'war...well that sounds unpleasant!' is some enlightened stance nobody else has. Pacifism as an ideal, in the sense of actively putting an end to conflict and striving for universal peace is presented as a completely noble ideal that everyone should at bare minimum respect.
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Jan 3, 2022 14:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:A correction, Gaius is 56. 6 years older than the Empire, he grew up seeing the glory and growth and “heroic” side of the Empire and by the time the real horror began he was far enough removed that he could assume things like Nael and Black Rose were individual bad eggs instead of the point of the Empire. yea I think people get the Garlean timeline a bit fuzzy. The Garlean Empire is an EXTREMELY new thing, it's 50-ish years old. Gaius and other 'old soldiers' like him in that world absolutely grew up during the dawn of the empire, when pride and glory and 'gently caress yea look at us conquering these violent savages who totally wanted to conquer us first' were at the heights. It's super easy for guys like that to, having grown up with that, go 'well clearly Nael is an idiot who's loving up Solus' good idea, it was going so well for us at first'. That's 100% how imperial societies work, it's the younger generations who are born after the peak who start to go 'wait...are we just loving up random other cultures because we don't like their god? That feels...like a bad idea for a society that's not actually solving my problems I have???' in large amounts like Jullus does when he literally has a breakdown over being given soup by his enemies. Obviously this is reductive, Rome had plenty of anti-expansionist people all through it's history and all and there's plenty of fashy youngsters, but we're talking broadstroke character types.
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Jan 3, 2022 14:55
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New Headcanon: while we were doing The Final Day trial, beneath the platform Zenos was having a shmup battle.
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