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Mellow Seas posted:Not everything has to be about everything. This Cheney-gladhanding is about one very specific thing. "Even this stupid right wing rear end in a top hat thinks Trump is a lunatic" is a resonant argument with some people, if not anybody here. It's going to resonate with absolutely no one except for MSNBC hosts. That's literally it. Everyone else will either not notice it, or will find it grotesque.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:09
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Majorian posted:It's going to resonate with absolutely no one except for MSNBC hosts. That's literally it. Everyone else will either not notice it, or will find it grotesque. Sorry Maj, I'm not going to claim to understand the average swing voter's brain, but I am very sure that you don't either.  I don't think they're accomplishing much of anything, I just don't really care.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:11
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Mellow Seas posted:Not everything has to be about everything. This Cheney-gladhanding is about one very specific thing. "Even this stupid right wing rear end in a top hat thinks Trump is a lunatic" is a resonant argument with some people, if not anybody here. I don't think it's unfair for people to view this as a negative message directed toward themselves and people like them, considering how willing people are to admit it's indeed a messaging thing toward a select group. A gesture can be an attack as well as a pandering, like a watered down version of the thunderous applause from all but one when Trump demonized socialism in his SOTU
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Jan 6, 2022 21:12
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Mellow Seas posted:Not everything has to be about everything. This Cheney-gladhanding is about one very specific thing. "Even this stupid right wing rear end in a top hat thinks Trump is a lunatic" is a resonant argument with some people, if not anybody here. Yes you've described normalizing war crimes
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Jan 6, 2022 21:12
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Feldegast42 posted:That's still overwhelming support, the only thing to take from it is that its just a large enough hole in Trump's armor that someone just as fascist as him but competent (DeSantis for instance) could take advantage of it The "competent fascist" is Trump. The high-water mark is Hitler. There is not a more competent fascist waiting in the wings, and these opinion polls are instructive on that point. You are looking at a Republican Party hollowed out of respected leadership, and then fantasizing that Shadow Hitler will soon emerge from their ranks. DeSantis could well become president (in like 2028, if Trump dies before 2024), but like all of them is a much worse candidate than Trump, because really none of them have the bona fides of being their own man as opposed to obsequious lickspittles. Mellow Seas posted:Not everything has to be about everything. This Cheney-gladhanding is about one very specific thing. "Even this stupid right wing rear end in a top hat thinks Trump is a lunatic" is a resonant argument with some people, if not anybody here. The only war crime is losing a war, so in that sense Cheney and Biden are in a big tent.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:12
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Epic High Five posted:I don't think it's unfair for people to view this as a negative message directed toward themselves and people like them, considering how willing people are to admit it's indeed a messaging thing toward a select group. A gesture can be an attack as well as a pandering, like a watered down version of the thunderous applause from all but one when Trump demonized socialism in his SOTU Yeah I think my issue is that people try to treat the pandering as an honest expression of succ-ness when it’s directed at the right or centrists, whereas they can correctly identify it as pandering when it’s directed towards the left. It’s panders all the way down! \/\/\/\/\/ Well you know what I mean, Bernie Bros, not thoroughly disengaged Marxists! Not enough of you to pander to, I'm afraid. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 21:13
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Mellow Seas posted:Yeah I think my issue is that people try to treat the pandering as an honest expression of succ-ness when it’s directed at the right or centrists, whereas they can correctly identify it as pandering when it’s directed towards the left. It’s panders all the way down! I wish like hell they'd pander to me actually!
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Jan 6, 2022 21:14
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Mellow Seas posted:Sorry Maj, I'm not going to claim to understand the average swing voter's brain, but I am very sure that you don't either. Oh cool, I can't wait for this to help minimize the Dems' losses in November. The issue here isn't with swing voters. There aren't too many of those left in the U.S. anyway. It's with turning out your base. This ain't gonna turn out the Democratic base. If it has any impact, it will be in convincing people to stay home instead of voting. That will probably be a small number of voters, but let's be real - the Dems need every vote they can get at this point.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:16
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Majorian posted:Oh cool, I can't wait for this to help minimize the Dems' losses in November. I've pretty much given up on '22 so that's kind of where I'm coming from. I feel like "it's about turning out your base, not swing voters" was an important idea ten years ago, but I think people might be over-applying it nowadays. There are definitely swing voters and our elections are often decided by less than 1%. e: Trump also shows that you can absolutely take actions that help your opponent's turnout. I don't think Joe Biden was the most popular candidate in history, but he got the most votes. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 21:18
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Mellow Seas posted:I've pretty much given up on '22 so that's kind of where I'm coming from. The "swing" isn't between "Republican" and "Democrat" anymore; it's between "voting" and "staying home." The reason why the Dems won Georgia is because they got black and brown voters to turn out for Ossof and Warnock, not because they reached out to Dick Cheney fans or Lincoln Project ghouls.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:20
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Mellow Seas posted:\/\/\/\/\/ Well you know what I mean, Bernie Bros, not thoroughly disengaged Marxists! Not enough of you to pander to, I'm afraid. Oh I don't expect my the BIG COMMUNISM side of my personal Venn Diagram to be even given acknowledgement even to denounce it, but even people whose ideology is entirely with the Bernie SocDem sphere aren't getting poo poo from this or anything else anymore. I'm pretty sure the last time leadership or the WH acknowledged the existence of anybody left of Manchin was to call them and order them to take BBB out back and shoot it. May as well be a full Communist of whatever flavor you'd prefer at this point if a material factor shaping your beliefs is what can get the ear of people with power lol
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Jan 6, 2022 21:20
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Mellow Seas posted:Not everything has to be about everything. This Cheney-gladhanding is about one very specific thing. "Even this stupid right wing rear end in a top hat thinks Trump is a lunatic" is a resonant argument with some people, if not anybody here. "How embarrassing, for Republicans" is a delusional take. Republicans will just crow about the hypocrisy of "the left", oh you called Cheney bad before but now that he's against Our Hero he's suddenly good???? Typical liberal, once Trump returns and DRAINS THE SWAMP we'll have no more of this. quote:I mean, the Democrats shook hands with a war criminal? The Democratic President is a war criminal! In that context it's not a big deal to me, sorry. If it's not a big deal then why go to bat for fawning over loving Dick Cheney? Do you gotta hand it to em that badly?
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Jan 6, 2022 21:20
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Yinlock posted:"How embarrassing, for Republicans" is a delusional take. Republicans will just crow about the hypocrisy of "the left", oh you called Cheney bad before but now that he's against Our Hero he's suddenly good???? Typical liberal, once Trump returns and DRAINS THE SWAMP we'll have no more of this. Especially when reaching across the aisle to try to reason with Republicans has been the clear guiding philosophy of the Biden Administration for the last year, and it's blown up spectacularly in their faces. The public may be largely politically disengaged, but they've noticed that for certain.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:22
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Yinlock posted:If it's not a big deal then why go to bat for fawning over loving Dick Cheney? Do you gotta hand it to em that badly? I'm not "going to bat!" I just don't think it matters! I think it's stupid political pap! I'm saying it's not a big deal because... it's not a big deal. [costanza]No hand, no hand![/costanza] Like if Adam Ottavino comes in and gets one out and gives up three singles in a 15-1 Red Sox loss I'm gonna say that Ottavino's performance was not a major contributor to their loss. He still pitched like poo poo. I wouldn't have invited Cheney, I just don't really care.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:23
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Mellow Seas posted:I'm not "going to bat!" I just don't think it matters! I think it's stupid political pap! I'm saying it's not a big deal because... it's not a big deal. No one's saying it's a huge deal in and of itself, it's just an unnecessary and particularly cringe-y self-own. I don't really get why you're taking umbrage at people pointing at it and going "lol Dems," because...lol Dems. You're the one who suggested it would resonate with swing-voters, weren't you? e: lol Waleed gets it https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1479181475190755328
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Jan 6, 2022 21:25
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Mellow Seas posted:I just don't really care. Mellow Seas posted:I'm not "going to bat!" I just don't think it matters! I think it's stupid political pap! I'm saying it's not a big deal because... it's not a big deal. Mellow Seas posted:I've pretty much given up on '22 so that's kind of where I'm coming from. Mellow Seas posted:Yeah I think my issue is that people try to treat the pandering as an honest expression of succ-ness when it’s directed at the right or centrists, whereas they can correctly identify it as pandering when it’s directed towards the left. It’s panders all the way down! Mellow Seas posted:Sorry Maj, I'm not going to claim to understand the average swing voter's brain, but I am very sure that you don't either. Mellow Seas posted:Not everything has to be about everything. This Cheney-gladhanding is about one very specific thing. "Even this stupid right wing rear end in a top hat thinks Trump is a lunatic" is a resonant argument with some people, if not anybody here. Mellow Seas posted:I think they are trying to lend a bipartisan patina to this, which is not going to impress any Republicans but might sway a few dozen squishy-brained swing voters. Probably a waste of time, I just don't see the harm. I don't remember the last time I posted this hard about something I didn't care about, but regardless, they did not have to shake hands with a war criminal who helped steal an election, and nobody has to defend it.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:27
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Majorian posted:No one's saying it's a huge deal in and of itself, it's just an unnecessary and particularly cringe-y self-own. I don't really get why you're taking umbrage at people pointing at it and going "lol Dems," because...lol Dems. You're the one who suggested it would resonate with swing-voters, weren't you? More that that was the reasoning for it, rather than that it would. And it will, with somebody out there, there's 150 million voters in this country, just probably not very many. Like really do people realize how differently almost everybody else in the US thinks about politics from people here? It is not unreasonable for Democrats to want this to not look like a partisan exercise. They're just probably not pulling that off with the Cheney stunt. Sharkie posted:I don't remember the last time I posted this hard about something I didn't care about, but regardless, they did not have to shake hands with a war criminal who helped steal an election, and nobody has to defend it.  \/\/\/\/\/ Maybe one day I'll understand the average American enough to have a Georgy Zhukov avatar 
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Jan 6, 2022 21:27
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Mellow Seas posted:Like really do people realize how differently almost everybody else in the US thinks about politics from people here? Of course, they just think even less like you.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:29
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Fellating Republicans more is definitely a strategy but it's a poor one.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:30
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Cheney being invited there just makes me think the dems are actually cool with a coup happening.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:32
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:if you're not a democratic lawmaker seeking reelection being obsessed with 1/6 is extremely pathetic, I'm sorry. This was a really good post. lil poopendorfer posted:I would have expected harsher punishments for people that tried to 'DESTROY OUR DEMOCRACY' or whatever phrasing theyre using. This is what I was getting at the other day in the usce thread when I was asking how many people had been charged with attempted murder, sedition or treason. It's only all those things when an elected Democrat is grandstanding in front of the cameras. edit: I misread obama's favorability but can't delete the image, lol
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Jan 6, 2022 21:35
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Srice posted:Cheney being invited there just makes me think the dems are actually cool with a coup happening. It just has to be executed by people who can keep the mask on long enough for the next news cycle to take over
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Jan 6, 2022 21:35
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Epic High Five posted:Looking forward to Cheney joining Kasich and probably Dubbya at the 2024 DNC Where is dem bff kasich today? I would've expected him there more than I expected shotgun dick.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:38
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Ograbme posted:What's up with the 4 capitol cops who committed suicide? What do you think is up with the four capitol cops who committed suicide? There are 2250 capitol cops, four suicides in a year is... well, really high, but i'd stop well short of conspiracy. At least two were definitely psychological trauma after getting mauled during the attempted coup.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:38
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Epic High Five posted:Looking forward to Cheney joining Kasich and probably Dubbya at the 2024 DNC I'm very, very glad that Rumsfeld is dead. e: yyyyyup https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1479188546212679681 Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 21:45
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Willa Rogers posted:Where is dem bff kasich today? I would've expected him there more than I expected shotgun dick. Went on CNN last night to talk about not letting people divide us and blah blah, he doesn't have a public schedule as far as I can tell so I can only assume he went straight from that recording to doing a fundraiser for Bomb All Women's Clinics PAC
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Jan 6, 2022 21:45
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Srice posted:Cheney being invited there just makes me think the dems are actually cool with a coup happening. They're fine with it as long as they aren't personally threatened. That's the message I'm getting.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:50
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Willa Rogers posted:This was a really good post. thank you Willa
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Jan 6, 2022 21:59
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i'd be exceedingly surprised if anyone who is actually a regular dem voter gives a gently caress about people briefly shaking hands with cheney. now if dick cheney ends up speaking at the next dem convention, lol yeah that would get a response
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Jan 6, 2022 22:02
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Herstory Begins Now posted:now if dick cheney ends up speaking at the next dem convention, lol yeah that would get a response What convinces you of this? The response to John Kasich?
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Jan 6, 2022 22:05
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mawarannahr posted:What convinces you of this? The response to John Kasich? I mean tbf, Kasich is a monster, but let's be real, Cheney's more famously a monster.
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Jan 6, 2022 22:07
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mawarannahr posted:What convinces you of this? The response to John Kasich? idk i don't think regular dem voters really gave a gently caress either way about that, but cheney really is still quite vilified, which is what all this 'how dare they even shake his hand' stuff comes out of. That said, handshakes mean next to nothing in the US and who managed to get a handshake with who is not really predictive or relevant to much of anything. People who absolutely hate each other shake hands as much, if not more, than people who actually like and respect each other. i mention the dnc thing because imo that's a step that actually has at least some tangible and symbolic meaning and i don't think dem voters are remotely ready to reconcile dick loving cheney that said, on a tactical level, the dems are clearly fine using the cheneys as much as possible as a wedge in the gop Majorian posted:I mean tbf, Kasich is a monster, but let's be real, Cheney's more famously a monster. kasich is like generically a republican/bad guy as far as dems are concerned, meanwhile with cheney, dems literally spent a decade earnestly calling him darth vader Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 22:11
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Herstory Begins Now posted:idk i don't think regular dem voters really gave a gently caress either way about that, but cheney really is still quite vilified, which is what all this 'how dare they even shake his hand' stuff comes out of. That said, handshakes mean next to nothing in the US and who managed to get a handshake with who is not really predictive or relevant to much of anything. People who absolutely hate each other shake hands as much, if not more, than people who actually like and respect each other. The party is rehabilitating Dick F’in Cheney (who had higher approval ratings than Kamala Harris) literally today, have you heard? They already did it for George W. Bush, why is Cheney too vilified?
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Jan 6, 2022 22:15
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Herstory Begins Now posted:idk i don't think regular dem voters really gave a gently caress either way about that, but cheney really is still quite vilified, which is what all this 'how dare they even shake his hand' stuff comes out of. That said, handshakes mean next to nothing in the US and who managed to get a handshake with who is not really predictive or relevant to much of anything. People who absolutely hate each other shake hands as much, if not more, than people who actually like and respect each other. Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. The handshake doesn't mean much by itself, it's more of the continuing trend of the Dems self-owning by reaching across the aisle to absolutely no avail.
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Jan 6, 2022 22:20
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Would they have shaken hands with Trump if he was there? No way to know, but I’d suspect not. Shaking hands w Cheney while condemning Trump is hypocritical, disingenuous, and really hosed up. To me, at least. Other people may disagree. I don’t think it’ll sway a single vote, for the record, I just think Cheney is far far worse than Trump.
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Jan 6, 2022 22:21
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The handshake poo poo would feel different if any part of the response felt serious. But none of it feels serious.
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Jan 6, 2022 22:22
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lil poopendorfer posted:Would they have shaken hands with Trump if he was there? No way to know, but I’d suspect not. Sadly, our view is a fringe one among the American populace https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-worst-president-obama-economist-poll-b1801294.html?amp
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Jan 6, 2022 22:24
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mawarannahr posted:The party is rehabilitating Dick F’in Cheney (who had higher approval ratings than Kamala Harris) literally today, have you heard? They already did it for George W. Bush, why is Cheney too vilified? i think they're more rehabilitating liz cheney if anything
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Jan 6, 2022 22:26
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I think there should be a separate thread to talk about handshakes. It’s too important a topic to be buried here.
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Jan 6, 2022 23:16
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mawarannahr posted:Sadly, our view is a fringe one among the American populace https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-worst-president-obama-economist-poll-b1801294.html?amp Americans are so damned stupid. William Henry Harrison is clearly the best president we've had.
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Jan 6, 2022 23:20
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