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So they can force you to come in when you were productively working from home, knowingly and pointlessly expose you to a known disease that's killed over 1,000,000 Americans in the past 2 years, and this is completely legal and you're not even allowed to sue them over it? This is stepping over the 'overtly evil' line. I don't think I could really blame anyone for doing something edgelordy to management/c-level if their partner died because of that sort of decision making.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:48
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Outrail posted:So they can force you to come in when you were productively working from home, knowingly and pointlessly expose you to a known disease that's killed over 1,000,000 Americans in the past 2 years, and this is completely legal and you're not even allowed to sue them over it? This is stepping over the 'overtly evil' line. Middle managers have rights too! They need to have asses in seats so they can survey their domain.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:50
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Outrail posted:So they can force you to come in when you were productively working from home, knowingly and pointlessly expose you to a known disease that's killed over 1,000,000 Americans in the past 2 years, and this is completely legal and you're not even allowed to sue them over it? This is stepping over the 'overtly evil' line. it's a combination of an overwhelmingly powerful commercial real estate lobby - the workers' lives are literally less valuable than the offices they're working in - and maintaining the power dynamic. people who work from home are more energetic and have more time to spend on themselves, and the united states needs to keep everyone but the rich in a state of exhausted precarity
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Jan 8, 2022 04:23
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Oxxidation posted:it's a combination of an overwhelmingly powerful commercial real estate lobby - the workers' lives are literally less valuable than the offices they're working in - and maintaining the power dynamic. people who work from home are more energetic and have more time to spend on themselves, and the united states needs to keep everyone but the rich in a state of exhausted precarity I strongly suspect that a part of management's issues with work from home is the weaponized incompetence of boomers. I work in an industry that skews older, although my company much less so. From what I've been hearing, a fair amount of friend's management is throwing hissy fits about having to learn how to use new things. Like VPNs. Or they are having meltdowns when they don't have someone near by to "show me how to do X" which really means "get someone younger to do it for me".
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Jan 8, 2022 04:42
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Thomamelas posted:I strongly suspect that a part of management's issues with work from home is the weaponized incompetence of boomers. I work in an industry that skews older, although my company much less so. From what I've been hearing, a fair amount of friend's management is throwing hissy fits about having to learn how to use new things. Like VPNs. Or they are having meltdowns when they don't have someone near by to "show me how to do X" which really means "get someone younger to do it for me". Hey now, sometimes an older person asking "Show me how to do X" means "I legitimately want to do my job, but nothing computer related sticks in my head for more than an hour or two." I've dealt with a few at work and they're legitimately almost more infuriating than the ones that just want you to do their job because they actually want to work but you have to keep reminding them how to do something as both you and then get more and more frustrated.
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Jan 8, 2022 08:42
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Alkydere posted:Hey now, sometimes an older person asking "Show me how to do X" means "I legitimately want to do my job, but nothing computer related sticks in my head for more than an hour or two." Have you tried introducing them to the concept of writing instructions down?
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Jan 8, 2022 09:40
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Scientastic posted:Have you tried introducing them to the concept of writing instructions down? I have never worked a job where everything wasn't a flow of "can you teach me how to do this" -> "no, thats why we have sharepoint" -> spend hour in sharepoint hunting down what they could have possibly named this, find nothing but dead links -> "ok, seriously, where the gently caress is this stuff" -> get given a link to a document so out of date it references DOS -> "you don't have any loving idea how this works do you?" -> no response ever
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Jan 8, 2022 09:50
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This is literally why I typed out instructions for everything we do in the lab, laminated it and put it in folders next to the appropriate work area.
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Jan 8, 2022 14:40
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It was part of my job to make sure we had up to date standard work for our processes... The staff doing the work loved it, my manager however refused to read them and would either ask me to do it for her or demand hand holding
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Jan 8, 2022 15:05
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Oxxidation posted:people who work from home are more energetic and have more time to spend on themselves, and the united states needs to keep everyone but the rich in a state of exhausted precarity I'm always amazed to hear Americans declare working from home the best thing since bread came sliced, because I think it's awful. Connectivity is worse, all file operations, are noticeably laggy, there is no separation of work and leisure, I have to cook lunch and clean my own office and most of all I actually enjoy having coworkers around to discuss work with or just shoot the poo poo over coffee. Y'all must have some awful managers and office policies that you'd rather just stay home and hammer away on your assignments.
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Jan 8, 2022 15:52
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Alkydere posted:Hey now, sometimes an older person asking "Show me how to do X" means "I legitimately want to do my job, but nothing computer related sticks in my head for more than an hour or two." It's not even just the older people. My immediate coworker is under 30 and can't grasp simple concepts without weeks or months of reminders. (We're talking as simple as "what does ctrl-C do", this isn't even just internal systems they don't get.) They're exclusively literate in Apple phones, and great at using those. On the clock. While already hours behind schedule by lunch. Every day. All day. This keeps showing up in metrics and keeps getting brought up to management, and mysteriously nothing ever happens even though we're wasting a budget stretched piano-wire-tight on someone incapable of doing their basic job without reminders and handholding at least every hour. Except unlike your example it never seems to frustrate them, just me. Jasper Tin Neck posted:I'm always amazed to hear Americans declare working from home the best thing since bread came sliced, because I think it's awful. The commute. Spend two hours of every day commuting, driving yourself through poo poo freeway traffic, and you'd want to do away with that too. That's literally the only advantage to WFH from me, everything else is a downside and I would never take a full time WFH job, but it's enough of a motivator that I switched to a split schedule with as much WFH time as I'm allowed. gently caress. Driving. SkyeAuroline fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 16:04
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Motronic posted:Middle managers have rights too! They need to have asses in seats so they can survey their domain. I would say as a middle manager most of this does not come from middle managers, it's coming from VP level. We did a survey here with options 1. Work from home forever 2. Work from the office on days agreed by your team 3. Work from the office on days set by VP level 4. Work from office all the time. Unsurprisingly everyone except for the lickspittles in Finance went for work from home forever. Bizarrely Finance wanted office days set by upper management and that was the option that VP's wanted to happen. but with the employment market as it is that had zero chance of happening.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:07
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:I'm always amazed to hear Americans declare working from home the best thing since bread came sliced, because I think it's awful. I kind of agree but also: - no commute - getting up five minutes before clocking in - sitting at my desk in just boxers - no commute
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Jan 8, 2022 16:20
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:I'm always amazed to hear Americans declare working from home the best thing since bread came sliced, because I think it's awful. office interaction is poo poo. it's pointless. it's trivial. it's miserably sterile. it's like driving an hour to the supermarket to buy a single loaf of white bread. and the lag matters little when i do an average of 90 minutes of work in a 10-hour day
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Jan 8, 2022 16:21
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They might know that their manager thinks all home working is a skive and will demand they be in every day if they're given the chance. VP mandated part time probably seems like the best chance they have to overrule them.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:22
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:Connectivity is worse, all file operations, are noticeably laggy, there is no separation of work and leisure, I have to cook lunch and clean my own office and most of all I actually enjoy having coworkers around to discuss work with or just shoot the poo poo over coffee. I’m making my own lunch either way - the difference is that “making lunch” at the office is just reheating leftovers or maybe a cold sandwich (depending on what I packed that morning before leaving my house) whereas in WFH, I have the option to do actual hot food on oven or stove, more options on microwaving something based on my fridge/freezer stocking, and so forth. MagusofStars fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 16:30
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This is why I absolutely love that my new job is remote first and has been remote from the very beginning. I don’t have to worry about “will I have to get back to an office anytime soon”
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Jan 8, 2022 16:32
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Scientastic posted:Have you tried introducing them to the concept of writing instructions down? Yup. Tried to train 2 older people to do my job at Amazon. Both took notes. First one took all the notes and was doing good but quit the position after 2 weeks because IT replaced the workstation with...admittedly a newer, better one* and undid all the work I had done to set everything up all nice and pretty for her so she couldn't find anything. Second one took less notes but can at least find his way to the apps he needs. He's still there, and will be there this week, sending work to the wrong departments despite me coaching him multiple times...but he wrote down CTRL + poo poo + T re-opens a tab he accidentally closed! Which is actually a good shortcut to know when everything you do is in tabs on a browser. Management keeps giving me old people to train when they go "Oh, your job is like this other job but not!" And I'm all "Kinda...yeah?" Both of them did the other job just fine, but management didn't seem to realize that the other job is in the middle of the department where they have other people they can ask for help relatively close by. Meanwhile my job is kinda like their job but not...and it's in the middle of nowhere with how the building is set up so they have no one around to ask for help with the computers. Whatever, I'm off this week, not my problem. Gonna do my best to biologically merge with the couch and watch Games Done Quick.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:55
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:I'm always amazed to hear Americans declare working from home the best thing since bread came sliced, because I think it's awful. From my perspective the only thing that I would want to be in the office for is training Juniors, that's the only area I think suffers from fully remote. That additional barrier puts them off asking trivial questions and leads them to being stuck longer. Who cares about talking to my co-workers, I can talk to my wife instead which is infinitely better.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:06
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I spend most of my time talking to people on phones. I don’t need to go into a physical office for that. And the days when I don’t have to do a lot I can go gently caress off and do something fun/productive. Some people can’t handle working from home. That’s fine, you should have the option to work in an office with people that want to be there too. In my experience most people would rather work from home because it’s rad.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:10
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I’ve always found it strange that introverts can understand extroverts, if only at an academic level, but extroverts find introvert preferences utterly alien.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:54
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WFH whips rear end. I saved like 14k last year on after school childcare since they can hang with me at home while I work. They are just old enough to not require tons of supervision but too young to be home alone. Working a job that is cool if I have to step away for 5-10 minutes to handle something makes this easy too. Also not commuting has added an hour and a half back to my day to do stuff so I finally started exercising and my weight is back to what it was when I was in high school. I also have a lot less stress in general from work.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:13
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WFH is unambiguously great for office work. You can live anywhere you like as long as there's a serviceable internet connection and there's zero commuting. I can't imagine why anybody would not see that as the objectively better option for those two reasons alone. If you really have to be surrounded by lovely beige walls and strangers who you barely tolerate as part of your working day then you can join a coworking space for pretty cheap these days. Human contact is what friends and family are for. Unless you're a boomer who hates his family and spends time at the office to get away from them. Of course it remains to be seen if the bosses will successfully force us to relinquish this arrangement when the plague is over.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:31
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:I’ve always found it strange that introverts can understand extroverts, if only at an academic level, but extroverts find introvert preferences utterly alien.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:31
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Sapozhnik posted:WFH is unambiguously great for office work. You can live anywhere you like as long as there's a serviceable internet connection and there's zero commuting. I can't imagine why anybody would not see that as the objectively better option for those two reasons alone. If you really have to be surrounded by lovely beige walls and strangers who you barely tolerate as part of your working day then you can join a coworking space for pretty cheap these days. In my case, it's ADHD. Plus semi-rural area so "coworking spaces" don't exist. Office environment helps me stay focused more than being at home does. Would never force office work on a coworker, though.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:18
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I dunno my job is the holy grail for home working being poo poo: - Client focused where everything slows to a crawl if you can't just talk to them - Small, super close teams where everything slows to a crawl if you can't just talk to them - Every week is a new project so you're never just sitting head down doing rote work. - We are located in a properly run city :europe: so thr commute was never that bad and never by car. - Lots of junior staff rapidly learning the ropes, which they can't do if you can't just talk to them (now we're getting people who have been here a year and just never learned to do essential tasks because their seniors did it themselves rather than teaching) - Massively social company who are mostly 20-30 and actually want to get lunch or drinks together
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Jan 8, 2022 19:32
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Also, housing. I never realised how utterly depressed I felt setting up my laptop in my 1bed apartment every Monday until we were able to go back to the office. God knows how bad it was for people who just rented a room in a shared house and had to crowd 4+ people round the kitchen table. Unlike freedomland we can't just buy a 3bed house each on a credit card at age 17.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:37
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Strategic Tea posted:I dunno my job is the holy grail for home working being poo poo: There's reasons I need to be at physical places, probably with other people with similar or other reasons to be there. But it is not collaboration at a basic level, which is 90% served by modern telecom/telecollab. Strategic Tea posted:Also, housing.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:41
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Alkydere posted:CTRL + poo poo + T re-opens a tab 
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Jan 8, 2022 19:46
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Wendigee posted:Making ppl that wfh before COVID come in twice as often? Lol what kind of evil poo poo is this they trying to kill their workers? Executives want to keep up with real estate deals. Managers want to *see* people working and feel good knowing they are being *productive*.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:57
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zedprime posted:After an initial hurdle coming to terms with what telecollaboration can do for you, you can do all of this in underwear at home. Saying this as someone who wears pants at home and misses the office. To be fair you're right, and some things like documentation and recording exactly what the client is telling us is a lot easier when it is all digital. This does not apply to lovely clients who smugly explain that oh no they file everything in paper and they're WFH too so they can't scan anything over  Fotunately we have fewer and fewer of them.I think training is the big issue, but can't put my finger on why it all went wrong. Juniors lose the perks of literally being sat in the room while more senior people discuss the technical/contentious stuff with the client. If there are questions they aren't asking the team remotely that they would be asking face to face, I don't know what they are. As we're with different people on each job, I sort of suspect they have been fed a diet of absolute tedious grunt work since they joined by lazy team leaders who couldn't be bothered to teach remotely. But then coming up with a coherent training system sounds like a job for... management.
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Jan 8, 2022 20:50
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Strategic Tea posted:But then coming up with a coherent training system sounds like a job for... management. Narrator: The junior workers were absolutely hosed. Basically junior workers in some industries kind of need to be mentored and wfh doesn't let that happen in the right way. There needs to be a constant dialogue that gets messed up if you need to send a text or phone message and wait for a response. This could be overcome with concerted effort by management, but it won't. I think a lot of new to industry personnel really won't flourish under wfh.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:22
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Outrail posted:Narrator: The junior workers were absolutely hosed.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:16
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Create a meeting in Teams for 9-5, invite the whole team. Problem solved. invite the panopticon in why don’t ya
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Jan 9, 2022 00:47
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The lost seeing stones, they are not all accounted for!
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Jan 9, 2022 00:57
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I know right! All this time I've been going through the History menu like a peasant  champagne posting posted:invite the panopticon in why don’t ya  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlgARu0l1zI
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Jan 9, 2022 01:00
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Not sure if I buy that remote work makes training and communication impossible. I'm 3 years in working for a company 4 timezones over, with team members spread over all the in between timezones, and for the most part we've successfully onboarded people (and mentored an intern for their term) in our team, and even working with other teams across the company has been fine. I work in the computer touching side of the business though, so YMMV. The big thing, I think, is that during the onboarding we made sure to tell the newbies that they should feel free to reach out anytime to the old farts in the team, and our manager encourages the olds to pop in now and again to make sure the newbies aren't stuck for a few weeks until they get the ropes. e: grammer Space Kablooey fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 01:09
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Takes No Damage posted:I know right! All this time I've been going through the History menu like a peasant How did you not know that you can right-click on the tab bar and choose to reopen a tab from the dropdown menu? Chrome made this a little more obnoxious than it used to be, but the function is still there if you right-click in empty space on the tab bar. Firefox still has it if you right-click on any tab.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:23
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I got pretty dang good training despite being WFH for all but the first two days (which hardly count as in-person, we spent most of it screensharing while 10 ft apart). It definitely took a lot of time from my manager/trainer but it was going to regardless, we have a lot of processes and regulations I needed to learn. I was also encouraged to ask as many questions as needed, with no deadline for when I was expected to stop. Mostly I think it comes down to the trainers being willing/able to put in the time the trainee needs, regardless of whether it’s in person or online. Which is simply not gonna happen at most jobs.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:40
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I'm sensing a pattern here.SkyeAuroline posted:The commute. Kuiperdolin posted:I kind of agree but also: Sarah Problem posted:Also not commuting Sapozhnik posted:there's zero commuting. MagusofStars posted:I agree with a lot of this (but still saving 30+ mins each way on my commute is hell yes of course I prefer WFH). But what do you mean by the lunch part of this? Our office has a cafeteria that serves meals that are both reasonably good, healthy and cheap, so I would rather use my 30 min lunch break to go eat there than prepare lunch and do the dishes on myself Add "lunch is two bologna sandwiches eaten at desk" to things I don't get. Aramoro posted:From my perspective the only thing that I would want to be in the office for is training Juniors, that's the only area I think suffers from fully remote. That additional barrier puts them off asking trivial questions and leads them to being stuck longer. It so happens that this is a large part of my work. Them not asking in time means a lot more review and revision work for me.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:56
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