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The silver bullet to genocide deniers is to talk about something else because they literally have no other interests than denying genocide nurmie posted:so, to bring it back to Eastern Europe: how does the thread feel about the current state of the Lithuania - China trade war? I am worried as about 2/3sof the population view it negatively and keep asking about how much Taiwan will invest in Lithuania and the businesses are whining about losses, not to mention the clown antivax president going against the executive If substantial international support doesn't arise it will be such an embarrassment to walk back on this and I guess the tankies will have been correct, Taiwan is number one but only because it's an indivisible part of glorious China
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Jan 10, 2022 16:10
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Weirdly enough in polish "głodomór" should mean exactly the same: "death by hunger", but in colloquial use it means someone that's just hungry. So there exist a restaurant http://glodomory.com/ You can't order "barszcz ukraiński", but they do have "pierogi ruskie"..
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Jan 10, 2022 16:16
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Both the Holocaust and Holodomor were genocides. We don't have to call the Holodomor a Holocaust to call it a Genocide. This seems really nitpicky, move on.
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Jan 10, 2022 16:51
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CommieGIR posted:Both the Holocaust and Holodomor were genocides. We don't have to call the Holodomor a Holocaust to call it a Genocide. This seems really nitpicky, move on. J Arch Getty, R W Davies, Stephen Wheatcroft, and even Robert Conquest (and more), all of whom are historians of the Soviet Union, uniformly disagree with you. What gives you the right to disregard the opinions of actual scholars and declare what is and isn't truth in this thread? This is a very straightforward abuse of your mod privileges.
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Jan 10, 2022 17:13
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Red and Black posted:J Arch Getty, R W Davies, Stephen Wheatcroft, and even Robert Conquest (and more), all of whom are historians of the Soviet Union, uniformly disagree with you. What gives you the right to disregard the opinions of actual scholars and declare what is and isn't truth in this thread? This is a very straightforward abuse of your mod privileges. So you are stating, squarely, that you are denying that the Holodomor is a possible genocide, and your entire point here is to argue that it was not genocide, is that correct? Given that Ukraine itself recognizes the Holodomor as a genocide, you should probably take it up with them since they were the ones directly affected by it. Also: There are scholars that disagree with your scholars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question Are your scholars the only valid sources then? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 17:15
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CommieGIR posted:So you are stating, squarely, that you are denying that the Holodomor is a possible genocide, and your entire point here is to argue that it was not genocide, is that correct? I'm saying that calling the Ukrainian famine a genocide is something that is rejected by a huge contingent of actual scholars on the subject. I have quoted them in my posts in this thread. Again, since you dodged the question: what gives you the right to determine what is and isn't truth and to demand people adhere to a line that isn't accepted even in liberal academia? quote:ur scholars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question
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Jan 10, 2022 17:19
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Why are you so invested in denying a genocide
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Jan 10, 2022 17:20
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Red and Black posted:I'm saying that calling the Ukrainian famine a genocide is something that is rejected by a huge contingent of actual scholars on the subject. I have quoted them in my posts in this thread. Again, since you dodged the question: what gives you the right to determine what is and isn't truth and to demand people adhere to a line that isn't accepted even in liberal academia? Here, let me help you here: Maybe you need to take a break from this thread. I also provided sources, and you've already outright dismissed them. Frankly, I don't think you are arguing in good faith.
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Jan 10, 2022 17:20
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CommieGIR posted:Here, let me help you here: Maybe you need to take a break from this thread. I also provided sources, and you've already outright dismissed them. Frankly, I don't think you are arguing in good faith. What sources? You linked to a wikipedia article? Link directly to the scholarship you think is relevant and I'll read it but this is just a joke.
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Jan 10, 2022 17:22
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Red and Black posted:I'm saying that calling the Ukrainian famine a genocide is something that is rejected by a huge contingent of actual scholars on the subject. I have quoted them in my posts in this thread. Again, since you dodged the question: what gives you the right to determine what is and isn't truth and to demand people adhere to a line that isn't accepted even in liberal academia? even a coursary look at a wikipedia article will reveal that your assertion about the Official Academic Line(tm) on this subject is false e: i'd like to move on from the tedious calm stalin posting and onto more interesting discussion topics. i wonder if there's a way to facilitate that
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Jan 10, 2022 17:22
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Red and Black posted:What sources? You linked to a wikipedia article? Link directly to the scholarship you think is relevant and I'll read it but this is just a joke. Maybe you'd actually like to read the article before dismissing offhand? If you bothered to read the citations, you'd find that your scholars and other scholars disagree. Its almost like its not a settled debate like you are pretending it is. Its settled in YOUR MIND. That's it. Nobody is calling your scholarly sources incorrect. They can disagree with scholars, and there are scholars that disagree with them. The reality is, in the mind of Ukrainians at least, it was a genocide. Scholars can debate back and forth all they want. But 8 million Ukrainians died. Its not a simple act of saying it was nothing. And acting like its a settled debate when its plainly not is unfair. You chose a debate side, fine, but other people have as well, and there's scholars on their side too. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 17:23
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This guy is here for a simple reason, he's running back and forth between here and his stupid genocide denial thread in CSPAM to alternate between imaginary victory laps over how hard he's trolled the libtards, and whining how he's being abused by mods for having his condoning of a genocide slightly challenged (seriously). I don't see how this sort of behavior is permissible. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 10, 2022 17:23
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CommieGIR posted:Here, let me help you here: Maybe you need to take a break from this thread. I also provided sources, and you've already outright dismissed them. Frankly, I don't think you are arguing in good faith. You left a link to a wikipedia article. I do not believe the soviets intended to ethnically cleanse ukraine, or kazakhstan or any of the regions affected. You don't need to be a tankie to believe this, it is an opinion soviet historians across the spectrum including extremely anti-communist ones like Stephen Kotkin hold: “Many contemporaries, such as the Italian ambassador, who traveled through Ukraine in summer 1933, deemed the famine deliberate.471 Monstrously, Stalin himself made the same accusation—accusing peasants of not wanting to work.472 Regime propaganda castigated the starving refugees besieging towns for “passing themselves off as ruined collective farmers.”473 Nonetheless, the famine was not intentional.474 It resulted from Stalin’s policies of forced collectivization-dekulakization, as well as the pitiless and incompetent management of the sowing and procurement campaigns, all of which put the country on a knife-edge, highly susceptible to drought and sudden torrential rains.475 Stalin appears to have genuinely imagined that increasing the scale of farms, mechanization, and collective efficiency would boost agricultural output. He dismissed the loss of better-off peasants from villages, only belatedly recognized the crucial role of incentives, and wildly overestimated the influx of machines. He twice deluded himself—partly from false reporting by frightened statisticians, partly from his own magical thinking—that the country was on the verge of a recovery harvest” [...] “Always grudgingly, Stalin approved, and in some cases initiated, reductions in grain exports, beginning already in September 1931; in 1932 and 1933 he signed reduced grain collection quotas for Ukraine, the North Caucasus, the Volga valley, Crimea, the Urals, the Central Black Earth region, the Kazakh autonomous republic, and Eastern Siberia on nine occasions.476 The 1933 grain procurement target fell from 24.3 to 19.6 million tons; the actual amount collected would be around 18.5 million tons.477, 478 Altogether, the regime returned about 5.7 million tons of grain back to agriculture, including 2 million tons from reserves and 3.5 million from procurements. Stalin also approved clandestine purchase of grain and livestock abroad using scarce hard currency.479 Just between February and July 1933, he signed or countenanced nearly three dozen small allocations of food aid to the countryside, primarily to the North Caucasus and Ukraine, as well as the Kazakh lands (which necessitated sharp reductions in the bread rations for city dwellers, many of whom were put on the brink of starvation). All of these actions were woefully insufficient for avoiding the mass starvation in the countryside caused by his policies, in the face of challenging natural conditions. Still, these actions do not indicate that he was trying to exterminate peasants or ethnic Ukrainians” - from Stalin Volume II: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 It's a mainstream opinion that people have been trying to shunt to the wayside due to events in eastern europe in the last few years. It does not deny that millions of people died, nor does it absolve the USSR of its responsibility and the mismanagement that led to this disaster. The soviets DID do ethnic cleansing on several other occasions with population transfers (poles, tartars, etc) so falling back on specifically the holdomor instead of using the clear and obvious historical examples is something that has grown out of the close links between the american state and ukrainian nationalists, rendering your statement that "check with the ukrainian government - that's what they say!" particularly idiotic.
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Jan 10, 2022 17:36
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To that end, I don't think its fair to throw around the label genocide denier against Red and Black. The reality is the Holodomor and its effects are hotly debated, to this day. To that end: If we cannot debate the Holodomor without accusing posters of being genocide deniers, then lets drop the topic.
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Jan 10, 2022 17:39
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mila kunis posted:You left a link to a wikipedia article. While I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying, you obviously don't read much of the work you are citing closely enough, because they mostly do not say that the collectivization famines and the disastrous doubling down and repressive measures taken after things didn't go as initially planned were simply "mismanagement".
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Jan 10, 2022 17:41
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CommieGIR posted:Nobody is calling your scholarly sources incorrect. They can disagree with scholars, and there are scholars that disagree with them. The reality is, in the mind of Ukrainians at least, it was a genocide. Scholars can debate back and forth all they want. But 8 million Ukrainians died. Its not a simple act of saying it was nothing. And acting like its a settled debate when its plainly not is unfair. You chose a debate side, fine, but other people have as well, and there's scholars on their side too. Nobody is saying that the famine was nothing. It very clearly wasn't nothing. And Stalin, and the Soviet government in general has culpability for what happened. As for the scholars on the other side, I would like it if people would quote their arguments and evidence directly, as I have with my scholarly sources. I do want to know what the opposing argument is. But that sadly has not how this has played out. CommieGIR posted:To that end, I don't think its fair to throw around the label genocide denier against Red and Black. The reality is the Holodomor and its effects are hotly debated, to this day. I appreciate this
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Jan 10, 2022 17:46
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Yeah I discussed with with someone more informed on Soviet/Russian history. Its just a hot topic, unfortunately. There's a lot of debate about the Holodomor and whether the effects of the famine were 'planned' or just side effects. More than willing to admit I let my bias based on only a birds eye view inform me here for that I apologize. I tend to view it as a genocide, but given the new information, its not a settled topic. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 17:52
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steinrokkan posted:This guy is here for a simple reason, he's running back and forth between here and his stupid genocide denial thread in CSPAM to alternate between imaginary victory laps over how hard he's trolled the libtards, and whining how he's being abused by mods for having his condoning of a genocide slightly challenged (seriously). As long as his victory laps about trolling the libtards don't indicate that the arguments he's making are disingenuous, and aren't being made in D&D, that probably isn't a problem. Though I would be interested to see the objectionable posts, if you would PM me about it.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:06
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https://twitter.com/radeksikorski/status/1480536745112444936
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Jan 10, 2022 18:08
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Having watched this argument unfold and the resulting mod action, I'd like to respectfully request a probation too. Thanks.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:13
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah I discussed with with someone more informed on Soviet/Russian history. Its just a hot topic, unfortunately. There's a lot of debate about the Holodomor and whether the effects of the famine were 'planned' or just side effects. More than willing to admit I let my bias based on only a birds eye view inform me here for that I apologize. Craven bullshit.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:33
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madeintaipei posted:Craven bullshit. Given that you were not posting on this topic and just showed up to say this, maybe you'd actually like to participate in this discussion?
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Jan 10, 2022 18:37
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Don't a majority of eastern european states still poll saying life was better under the USSR than capitalism? This doesn't excuse the modern Russia, which is a capitalist oligarchy, from using the rhetoric, just something that floats in the back of my head whenever a politician/state account acts cheeky about the collapse.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:59
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Man, this thread sometimes.
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Jan 10, 2022 19:01
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Who are you people, anyway? This thread gets the strangest invasions. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 10, 2022 19:02
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Oh hey it's Mr. Appelbaum! 
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Jan 10, 2022 19:15
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Mokotow posted:Who are you people, anyway? This thread gets the strangest invasions. i believe youre mistaking "something important gets people talking" for an invasion. how ironic, considering lollontee fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 19:22
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lollontee posted:i believe youre mistaking "something important gets people talking" for an invasion. how ironic, considering the ukraine Ukraine
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Jan 10, 2022 19:31
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Okay, here's some links. This overview from the University of Minnesota puts Holodomor into context with other notable genocides of the XX century (including the Holocaust). While it does unfortunately quote Anne Applebaum (who I personally have no love for), it's a good primer on the Holodomor-as-a-genocide argument. Particularly, this assessment by Volodymyr Vasylenko lays out the argument in a concise (if a bit emotional) form. Of course, NB.: this is indeed the position of the Ukrainian government and Ukrainian nationalists (who I have no love for too), but since we're all arguing in good faith here, something being an "official position" of someone unsavoury does not preclude it from being a plausible point worth of consideration now, does it? Furthermore, there's a whole website on the topic that lays it out in a pretty digestible way. All previously-mentioned NBs apply of course. And, of course, if the Holodomor-as-genocide opponents in this thread would like to debate all these, I expect them to not go for the low-hanging fruits (eg: "Anne Applebaum is Bad"; "of course these people would say it's a genocide as they're all ukrainians/nationalists/ukronazis/whatever"), I know you can do better than that. Even furthermore still, one could spend a considerable amount of time researching the current definition of the word "genocide", and all the unending cans of worms that seem to spring up from the intentionality clause. Curiously, there's even an entire section on it in the Encyclopedia Britannica article on the topic, not to mention the academic discussion (here's one example). Proving intent is notoriously hard in any legal battle; which is why quite a few naughty dictators in the past managed to avoid being called genocidal dictators, at least in any legally-binding form. That doesn't preclude them from being genocidal though. That also doesn't preclude the Irish Famine, the Bengal Famine, the (current) Yemeni famine and, yeah, Holodomor from being genocides. At least in my opinion. All of them targeted / target a particular ethnic/national group disproportionally, all of them are man-made, all of them include a political motivation for depriving people of food. In my opinion, that's enough. (As an aside, we do know that the Soviet Union was not above engaging in ethnic cleansing, and the results of Holodomor are hardly-distinquishable from an act of ethnic cleansing (particularly around Kuban' and in the eastern parts of Ukraine), so I'm not quite sure why folks are so intent on invoking this point. The Kazakh famine mentione upthread comes to mind too, and I suppose there aren't much political will atm for it to become recognised as a genocide, but imo that's a topic for a separate discussion) Now, I could question Red and Black as to why they never posted in this thread up until now, and as to what is the nature of their interest in (and connection to) the topic of Eastern Europe, but I won't do so, as I'm pretty sure the answers to these questions are self-evident to all (except, maybe, mods). I would, however, like to address this, even though it wasn't addressed to me in particular as far as I can tell (hope that is OK!): Koos Group posted:Though I would be interested to see the objectionable posts, if you would PM me about it. Here's one, for example (as is that whole line of argumentation) Red and Black posted:Also whatever the official explanation of the term is it’s clearly favored because it evokes comparison to the holocaust. The problem here is that Red and Black argues that the name "Holodomor" is evocative of the Holocaust, which leads to direct comparisons that are (in their opinion) somehow reductive (in fact, IIRC that was their whole initial objection that they stated in their very first post in this thread). Now, I'm sure it is evident from everything that was posted since that the usage of the word "голодомор" to describe this event is not, in fact, an attempt to find a word evocative of the Holocaust (if there are any proof to the contrary, I'd like to see it, of course). The insinuation here being that the usage of that word was a delibirate attempt to "brand" an event, which carries further implications of the whole "Holodomor-as-genocide" thing being a manufactured reading. (Red and Black, you're welcome to disprove my reading if you wish). I'm not going to even touch on the topic of what this kind of argumentation says about the poster's opinion of the Ukrainian language and the people using it to name things (as it has been mentioned), but I'll leave that to Red and Black to disprove too. Personally, I think these kind of arguments are indicative of what we usually call "calm Hitler" type of posting - just evocative enough to carry all these unfortunate implications, just enough room to manoeuvre into the "just asking questions" bit. At the very least, it betrays the fact that the poster is entirely unfamiliar with the languages of the geographical area that they are so intent on posting about. As someone who's actually from Eastern Europe, I, personally, do not appriciate this kind of yanksplaining. I'm sure other posters in this thread are not particularly keen on it either. also, for future reference, i, personally, don't think Holodomor fits the UN's current definition of "genocide" - same as the Bengal famine for example. this doesn't stop it from being one, though, and arguing on technicalities diminishes the horrible reality of the event. if you want to call it "imprecise speech" or whatever, that's up to you i guess nurmie fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 19:35
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nurmie posted:Okay, here's some links. I didn't think having family members in the galician division was a pre requisite for being able to post in this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 10, 2022 19:42
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Terminal autist posted:I didn't think having family members in the galician division was a pre requisite for being able to post in this thread. are you referring to anyone in particular?
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Jan 10, 2022 19:43
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nurmie posted:are you referring to anyone in particular? Nope, just making inferences as you were.
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Jan 10, 2022 19:46
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Terminal autist posted:Nope, just making inferences as you were. cool, cool In case of further inferences: galicia division (and also their brothers in arms from lithuanian territorial defense force and other assorted Nazi collaborators) can gently caress right off and rot in hell. It's kind of telling that this is a line you chose to push here though. Are you assuming that everyone who argues for Holodomor being a genocide has relatives who are Nazi collaborators?
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Jan 10, 2022 19:49
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Terminal autist posted:I didn't think having family members in the galician division was a pre requisite for being able to post in this thread. If anyone else feels like making these inferences and accusing posters of being Nazis without evidence, you are welcome to join Terminal Autist. Don't do it
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Jan 10, 2022 19:53
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nurmie posted:Now, I could question Red and Black as to why they never posted in this thread up until now, and as to what is the nature of their interest in (and connection to) the topic of Eastern Europe, but I won't do so, as I'm pretty sure the answers to these questions are self-evident to all (except, maybe, mods). I would, however, like to address this, even though it wasn't addressed to me in particular as far as I can tell (hope that is OK!): If an argument someone is making has certain implications, you can argue against those implications; and conversely, posters are always encouraged to state their entire point directly rather than alluding. Because positions aren't moderated, you don't need to obscure what your position is. If Red and Black's aim is to rehabilitate Stalin, that's fine, at least from a moderation perspective. You being from Eastern Europe, and being able to provide more insight on the things Red and Black says, is good. Your rebuttal on the term "голодомор", for example, provides information readers of the thread might not have known. So even though he was incorrect on that point, it was still something he honestly believed and which led to something interesting being said, so it shouldn't be moderated.
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Jan 10, 2022 19:59
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In response to the Holodomor thing, I have made it clear that I'm talking about the way it has been proliferated and used in the English language. How it is used in Ukrainian is beside the point, because in English the term has been taken up, and spread specifically with the intention of evoking the holocaust. In my opinion of course, not that it needs to be said.CommieGIR posted:If anyone else feels like making these inferences and accusing posters of being Nazis without evidence, you are welcome to join Terminal Autist. Don't do it Out of curiosity, does this also apply to "calm Hitler" references?
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Jan 10, 2022 20:05
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Red and Black posted:In response to the Holodomor thing, I have made it clear that I'm talking about the way it has been proliferated and used in the English language. How it is used in Ukrainian is beside the point, because in English the term has been taken up, and spread specifically with the intention of evoking the holocaust. In my opinion of course, not that it needs to be said. Even if something is merely your opinion, you still need to be willing to fully defend it (or at least reconsider it) if you state it in D&D. Bear that in mind. Red and Black posted:Out of curiosity, does this also apply to "calm Hitler" references? "Calm Hitler" is a term that refers to arguing for something heinous in a way that appears rational and respectful. It's used more generally than just for Nazis. I would however, like nurmie not to use the term, because it's irrelevant.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:11
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I would disagree that the months long train wreck of people vomiting endless essays about the epistemology of comparing people to Hitler, the ethics of forgetting to consider the American viewpoint on something, or sometimes just to defend their 7th grade-equivalent familiarity with the history of USSR, counts as something interesting being posted. Historically, in my 8 years of posting in this thread’s iterations, it has been a current events thread for Eastern Europe, with occasional casual interventions like salad chat or helping someone decipher their grandmother’s steamy sex letters to grandfather on the Eastern Front. Edit: I would like to apologise to our CIA analyst-in-making and the rest of the honourable cadre of thermonuclear global war doomposting for forgetting to list them amongst the most egregious of posting crimes. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 20:12
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I would disagree that the months long train wreck of people vomiting endless essays about the epistemology of comparing people to Hitler, the ethics of forgetting to consider the American viewpoint on something, or sometimes just to defend their 7th grade-equivalent familiarity with the history of USSR, counts as something interesting being posted. Well, whether the discussion is interesting and not repeating itself is a concern to me, so I'll keep that in mind. However, because this is the only Eastern Europe thread, people have a right to discuss Eastern European issues here even if some of the regulars like using it more as a hangout. I would be willing to do what the Canada thread does, and have one hangout thread mostly for Canadians and another more serious discussion thread.
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Jan 10, 2022 20:18
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Red and Black posted:How it is used in Ukrainian is beside the point, because in English the term has been taken up, and spread specifically with the intention of evoking the holocaust. In my opinion of course, not that it needs to be said. If I may, I'd like to ask for a clarification on this. Are there any reasons you hold this particular opinion? Because for an opinion it seems to be awfully close to be worded as a statement of historical fact. (Just in case, I am intimately aware of how political forces and states and so on use historical events to their advantage; which of course involves giving particular names to particular events. So I'd rather not retread a talking point along the lines of "this is what nationalists do, you know?"; if you can, please point me towards the usage of the word Holodomor in particular as a cursory google search doesn't seem to bring anything on the topic of it evoking the Holocaust in particular) Koos Group posted:"Calm Hitler" is a term that refers to arguing for something heinous in a way that appears rational and respectful. It's used more generally than just for Nazis. I would however, like nurmie not to use the term, because it's irrelevant. can i use "calm stalin" instead?  Seriously though, noted - and yeah I agree, invoking Hitler doesn't really bring much to discussioncinci zoo sniper posted:I would disagree that the months long train wreck of people vomiting endless essays about the epistemology of comparing people to Hitler, the ethics of forgetting to consider the American viewpoint on something, or sometimes just to defend their 7th grade-equivalent familiarity with the history of USSR, counts as something interesting being posted. 
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Jan 10, 2022 20:19
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