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I mean I think the more accurate answer is that Whedon was a 90s male feminist that just never changed as the times did He was also a creeper but people being hypocritical and being able to rationalize it to themselves isn’t particularly unheard of
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Jan 15, 2022 11:30
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Shiroc posted:The first Whedon thing I ever watched was Firefly sometime in the early 2010s. I was baffled to discover that "strong female characters" meant literally women who could beat people up. This is still what 90% of male writers think a "strong female character" is
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Jan 15, 2022 12:01
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Whedon was never feminist so much as he had fetishes that happened to be different from those of the boomers who made most media at the time. Somebody had an insightful take that Whedon, like Chris Claremont, was somebody whose fetishes happened to line up with being progressive at the time he was writing. I rewatched Buffy and Angel sometime post-covid, so after Whedon's cultivated image had been shattered, and the thing that really hurts is that those two shows (with some glaring exceptions) really do such a great job of characterizing their female casts. Cordelia was one of the most fully fleshed-out characters on TV (until Charisma Carpenter got pregnant and Whedon assassinated her character in retaliation). If you only look at what's on the screen and none of the behind-the-scenes stuff I get why you'd believe this is a guy who Gets It. The episode of Buffy where Angel turns evil is one of the finest hours of television ever, and it makes my blood boil that the man had to have a rule enacted against him that he couldn't be alone in a room with an underaged cast member. Mr.Chill posted:Agreed. The gender politics in Firefly were odd as hell. She's strong because she can fight, and she's strong because she's a mechanic and only boys can do that (that's cute!), and she's strong because she has sex (but our hero still calls her a whore a lot just so you don't think we're encouraging that kind of thing). Firefly is everything that people who've never seen Buffy think Buffy is. It's aged like milk and I don't blame Fox for canceling it.
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Jan 15, 2022 13:11
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Eh I think that’s a reductive take that tries really hard to make it so only a perfect unchanging ideal is all that can ever have existed and if you didn’t it’s obviously because you didn’t try. So your either the embodiment of perfection or a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
CharlestheHammer has a new favorite as of 13:29 on Jan 15, 2022 |
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Jan 15, 2022 13:20
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Firefly just isn't good. It happens, you don't have to fight against reality. e; quote:Eh I think that’s a reductive take that tries really hard to make it so only a perfect unchanging ideal is all that can ever have existed and if you didn’t it’s obviously because you didn’t try. So your either the embodiment of perfection or a wolf in sheep’s clothing. It's fair to say he was wearing sheeps clothing with his feminism. From the words out of his own mouth and what he put into his work. MariusLecter has a new favorite as of 13:33 on Jan 15, 2022 |
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Jan 15, 2022 13:30
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Rochallor posted:Firefly is everything that people who've never seen Buffy think Buffy is. It's aged like milk and I don't blame Fox for canceling it. I recall being told what an idiot I was because I refused to accept Firefly as being the greatest TV show in the history of mankind. And then the fans REALLY got riled up when I accidentally referred to him as "Josh".
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Jan 15, 2022 13:30
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Rochallor posted:Somebody had an insightful take that Whedon, like Chris Claremont, was somebody whose fetishes happened to line up with being progressive at the time he was writing. Yeah, that's the one. I also think it's more that a lot of people didn't really understand why people liked what they were seeing- and making- and so they end up cargo-culting random elements of it that are easy to replicate, like the snarky one-liners and Strong Female Characters. CharlestheHammer posted:I mean I think the more accurate answer is that Whedon was a 90s male feminist that just never changed as the times did Well, kinda become a problem as it turns out so much about 90s feminism had unexamined issues, even without how 'male feminist' has become synonymous with predator angling for vulnerable victims.
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Jan 15, 2022 13:36
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MariusLecter posted:Firefly just isn't good. It happens, you don't have to fight against reality. I’m not just talking about Whedon, though I doubt he said anything like that as people generally don’t do that. Like you bring up Claremont. He did legit try but ultimately he was a man who grew up in the 50s and 60s and even he’s willing to admit some of the things that haven’t aged particularly well (like general treatment of Native Americans in comics) weren’t good but were extremely common at that time. As time goes on a lot of the more progressive writers of this time are going to have similar issues it’s just how things go, the important part isn’t that it happened the important part is how you react to how things change. Even aside Whedon being a creeper I’ve seen no evidence he’s ever acknowledged how things have changed and I think that’s more important in the long run from a purely fiction point of view
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Jan 15, 2022 13:46
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Toshimo posted:https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7d34y/when-joss-whedon-was-our-master Whedon's dialog being described as characters exchanging "t-shirt slogans" is perfect. they might as well be bumbling around saying "I'm with stupid" and now we've decided as a culture that everything should feature this witty original approach to ensuring all of your characters sound like Joss Whedon
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Jan 15, 2022 14:15
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Mr.Chill posted:Agreed. The gender politics in Firefly were odd as hell. She's strong because she can fight, and she's strong because she's a mechanic and only boys can do that (that's cute!), and she's strong because she has sex (but our hero still calls her a whore a lot just so you don't think we're encouraging that kind of thing). The hero calls her a whore because he wants to bang her. Like he actually hires the girl mechanic because she was loving his old mechanic in the engine room, and after he fired the guy she showed she was better at it, so he's not actually a prude. It's just that he wants to be the one loving the professional courtesan, so he constantly calls her a whore. Which means that instead of normal workplace harassment, this is actually sexual harassment. Either way it's Joss Whedon on brand.
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Jan 15, 2022 16:21
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sweet geek swag posted:So no one with any credibility is what you are saying. I mean, to us yeah, but the masses ate that poo poo up
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Jan 15, 2022 19:54
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I AM GRANDO posted:The sad thing is that his actual name is Joe Hill Whedon, which suggests that his parents must have been kind of cool people to name him that. Is his dad Stephen King?
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Jan 15, 2022 21:25
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CharlestheHammer posted:a wolf in sheep’s clothing. That literally what Whedon is/was
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Jan 15, 2022 23:45
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sweet geek swag posted:The hero calls her a whore because he wants to bang her. Like he actually hires the girl mechanic because she was loving his old mechanic in the engine room, and after he fired the guy she showed she was better at it, so he's not actually a prude. It's just that he wants to be the one loving the professional courtesan, so he constantly calls her a whore. Which means that instead of normal workplace harassment, this is actually sexual harassment. Either way it's Joss Whedon on brand. Tbf she only puts up with it because she wants to gently caress him too and I guess it’s cool they all have the emotional maturity of middle schoolers
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Jan 15, 2022 23:55
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I don't care to look it up, but didn't joss pretty much become hands off from buffy later in its life, and most of the "best" parts of that show were written by other people?
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Jan 16, 2022 00:37
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I liked Firefly. As a silly cowboy show set in space. And this is where I think a great deal of the problems arise with Joss Whedon and "the Whedonverse". The second you start to care so much about a TV writer, that it becomes part of your personality and/or self image. The moment where you feel the need to defend, not the show, but it's writers. And you aren't using arguments like "I like watching this." or "This is fun. This is cool.", but instead "He is a good guy actually, you just need to look past X and Y, and we don't mention Z in polite company." When you start doing that, it has gone wrong. And this is ignoring the already mentioned points about his "feminism" being paper thin. A silly space cowboy TV show can be fun, and to my mind it was. But it's only a TV show. A silly on about cowboys in space. This argument is not Whedon specific, and can and should be used on weirdo obsessive, overly invested fans of a whole bunch of other properties/books/shows/etc. Edit: pretty soft girl posted:Whedon's dialog being described as characters exchanging "t-shirt slogans" is perfect. they might as well be bumbling around saying "I'm with stupid" and now we've decided as a culture that everything should feature this witty original approach to ensuring all of your characters sound like Joss Whedon And I would add an unrelated aside is that that also perfectly describes the "quips" that Sex and The City, (both old TV series, movies and new series), are famous for. BrigadierSensible has a new favorite as of 01:21 on Jan 16, 2022 |
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Jan 16, 2022 01:16
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I don't care to look it up, but didn't joss pretty much become hands off from buffy later in its life, and most of the "best" parts of that show were written by other people? Its last couple of seasons when he wasn't the main showrunner were probably the worst seasons but it's true that many of the best individual episodes came from other writers.
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Jan 16, 2022 01:21
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Not really. After Buffy goes to UPN he goes more hands off and Marti Noxon becomes show runner. With the exception of the musical (which has Whedon's fingerprints all over) seasons 6-7 are seen as a decline.effervescible posted:Its last couple of seasons when he wasn't the main showrunner were probably the worst seasons but it's true that many of the best individual episodes came from other writers. Really? I think when people make the list of best Buffy episodes, it would always be dominated by "Hush" "Innocence" "Restless" "The Body" "Once More With Feeling" and "The Gift" - all Whedon written and directed. GoutPatrol has a new favorite as of 01:27 on Jan 16, 2022 |
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Jan 16, 2022 01:21
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BrigadierSensible posted:I liked Firefly. As a silly cowboy show set in space. I mean maybe if they weren't quite so heavy on the BIG GOVERNMENT BAAAAAAD HEY LET'S ROB A SPACE TRAIN FOR THIS WARLORD ON OPPRESSULON 7
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Jan 16, 2022 02:57
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Firefly was just a lovely attempt at trying to be Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star. (Still angry that Dark Angel got canceled in favor of Firefly grumble.)
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Jan 16, 2022 03:07
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I'm glad that Firefly isn't being heralded as the best thing to ever grace our lives, but when did the goon hivemind shift to "IT loving SUCKS YOU SUCK"? Like, things can be just "good". Or "okay". They don't have to be a perfect angelic gift from the heavens or an affront to art itself.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:11
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Vandar posted:Firefly was just a lovely attempt at trying to be Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star. Dark Angel was really dopey and also had some REALLY questionable stuff around Max and how sexy she was and how having cat DNA made her go into heat sometimes (ugggghhhh) but it felt like it had real potential and it could have been something better given a bit more time.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:11
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Firefly only lasting half a season helped it out long term, because the bad stuff didn't have time to really get bad or prevalent, and the good stuff left people wanting more of it. Which isn't too uncommon for good shows that get cancelled after a season or two. I still wish Better Off Ted got more.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:15
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I'm glad that Firefly isn't being heralded as the best thing to ever grace our lives, but when did the goon hivemind shift to "IT loving SUCKS YOU SUCK"? extreme emotions get the most attention so people are incentivized to display them. same reason america is dying.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:18
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HopperUK posted:Dark Angel was really dopey and also had some REALLY questionable stuff around Max and how sexy she was and how having cat DNA made her go into heat sometimes (ugggghhhh) but it felt like it had real potential and it could have been something better given a bit more time. I have been around cats in heat. There is nothing sexy at all about a woman who acts like one of them. I mean, unless she isn't screaming and throwing herself all over the place while screaming at 3am.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:19
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HopperUK posted:Dark Angel was really dopey and also had some REALLY questionable stuff around Max and how sexy she was and how having cat DNA made her go into heat sometimes (ugggghhhh) but it felt like it had real potential and it could have been something better given a bit more time. It had it's issues but the potential was there and it was way better than Firefly ever was. Fashionable Jorts posted:I'm glad that Firefly isn't being heralded as the best thing to ever grace our lives, but when did the goon hivemind shift to "IT loving SUCKS YOU SUCK"? It's not just the goon hivemind. Between everything that came out about Whedon being an abuser and the fanbase getting really loving annoying about the show for a long time, opinions all over the place shifted against Firefly.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:24
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:extreme emotions get the most attention so people are incentivized to display them. same reason america is dying. I think it’s also goons kind of prefer black and white thinking.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:25
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bobjr posted:Firefly only lasting half a season helped it out long term, because the bad stuff didn't have time to really get bad or prevalent, and the good stuff left people wanting more of it. Real shame it didn't last long enough for us to get the episode where a character gets gang-raped by monsters but she survives because she has a poison vagina that kills the rapists. Might have killed Whedon's career a decade early...
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Jan 16, 2022 03:26
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Firefly was ok I guess and Serenity was like a 6 out of 10
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Jan 16, 2022 03:34
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Angry Salami posted:Real shame it didn't last long enough for us to get the episode where a character gets gang-raped by monsters but she survives because she has a poison vagina that kills the rapists. Might have killed Whedon's career a decade early... On the commentary for one of the episodes, there’s a scene of her contemplating a hidden pill bottle in the context of the crew preparing for a suicide mission, and Whedon says something like “people assume from the context that those are suicide pills, but we had a cooler idea for what those are that maybe we’ll get to use one day.” It’s like when he made a black character who was relentlessly physical and threatened white women with rape and said on the commentary that he was glad he made a cool villain that was like his version of Boba Fett.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:41
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GoutPatrol posted:Really? I think when people make the list of best Buffy episodes, it would always be dominated by "Hush" "Innocence" "Restless" "The Body" "Once More With Feeling" and "The Gift" - all Whedon written and directed. Those would definitely be on there, sure, but so would non-Whedon episodes, and there was a lot of appreciation for other writers back when the shoe was airing. It wasn't a situation where Joss was responsible for all the good stuff or that it got better the more he focused on other stuff is all I was getting at.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:42
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HopperUK posted:Dark Angel was really dopey and also had some REALLY questionable stuff around Max and how sexy she was and how having cat DNA made her go into heat sometimes (ugggghhhh) but it felt like it had real potential and it could have been something better given a bit more time. Plus the whole pointless super-secret conspiracy bullshit organisation. I mean, they'd already been genetically engineered to be super-soldiers by the US government and were being hunted by everyone. Having a secret cabal behind the secret military organisation was just pointless. Also, they teased the non-passing chimeras with lizard skins and poo poo, but then totally ignored them in favour of their beautiful Aryan ubermensches.
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Jan 16, 2022 03:44
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I'm glad that Firefly isn't being heralded as the best thing to ever grace our lives, but when did the goon hivemind shift to "IT loving SUCKS YOU SUCK"?
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Jan 16, 2022 03:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:I think it’s also goons kind of prefer black and white thinking. It isn’t goons, it’s the Internet. Its native language is hyperbole.
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Jan 16, 2022 04:10
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It's fun to exaggerate you stupid loving piece of poo poo, i'll kill you if you ever imply otherwise you gently caress
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Jan 16, 2022 04:39
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Vandar posted:(Still angry that Dark Angel got canceled in favor of Firefly grumble.) Wikipedia posted:In the DVD commentary for "Freak Nation", the series finale, Charles H. Eglee explained what had been planned for season three. The intention was to bring together the storylines of seasons one ("Manticore") and two ("Breeding Cult") and reveal the mythology of Dark Angel. The season would reveal that thousands of years ago, Earth passed through a comet's tail which deposited viral material that killed 97% of the human race. The breeding cult preserved the survivors' genetic immunity so that when the comet returned, only members of the cult would survive. Sandeman, a cult member, and Max's creator betrayed the cult and decided to give this genetic immunity to the rest of humanity through Max, who would be the savior of the human race. There were multiple ideas on how to spread Max's immunity, including an air burst that would disperse the antibody through the atmosphere, or attaching the immunity to a common cold virus (Eglee detailed how a scene would show Original Cindy sneezing as part of the beginning of the immunity spread).
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Jan 16, 2022 05:04
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Firefly was canceled to protect the actors from Joss Whedon.
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Jan 16, 2022 05:19
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if you wait long enough firefly = bad will become the dominate opinion and therefore saying it is not bad will be transgressive and against the hivemind.
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Jan 16, 2022 06:26
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PhazonLink posted:if you wait long enough firefly = bad will become the dominate opinion and therefore saying it is not bad will be transgressive and against the hivemind. I wonder. “Harry Potter is bad” is now the dominant position but HP merch still makes oodles of money
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Jan 16, 2022 06:37
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i think folks are overreacting a bit. firefly was a breath of fresh air for 2001-2002 and that general opinion lasted until 2010, when its form of fresh air became, well, stale. hollywood and most major tv shows follow very lame and outdated trends for longer than society does, so firefly felt like an unfairly transgressed show for about that time. now we can fairly revisit it and say it sucks, but was good for its time? why are we overreacting to this.
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Jan 16, 2022 06:49
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